Ukraine

[Silvanus]

And even if it wasn't motivated by desperation on this aspect Russia is the last one that should give them a lesson considering Wagner is not much better than Azov.

If we're talking magnitude, Wagner is worse. It's 6 times the size, and has been involved in more aggressive actions than Azov.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Not settling on just laughable claims of "antifascist invasion" Russian leaders are cashing in on the qanon misinfo network with help from fox news because of fucking course








There's a longer thread but can only select a few for the post limits here.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Pft, everyone knows you're supposed to claim nuclear WMDs to justify an invasion, not biological ones.

 

[CM156]

Pft, everyone knows you're supposed to claim nuclear WMDs to justify an invasion, not biological ones.

And you're supposed to do the spurious accusations FIRST and THEN you invade. Russia is doing everything out of order.

 

[Agema]

Well, you could argue that it played a major part in ending the Japanese government determination to get better terms to end the war, though here were of course other factors, such as the USSR getting involved.

There again, Japan was militarily all but done for: it's fleet was no longer effective at the required carrier warfare even by the desperate and predictably catastrophic Battle of Leyte Gulf, and even what it had left lacked fuel to go anywhere. Its only hope was that it could be so costly to completely defeat that the Allies would decide to let it keep a bit of its ill-gotten gains, but the USSR's declaration of war just ensured that the only power left that might mediate for something other than unconditional surrender wasn't going to.

 

[Thaluikhain]

There again, Japan was militarily all but done for: it's fleet was no longer effective at the required carrier warfare even by the desperate and predictably catastrophic Battle of Leyte Gulf, and even what it had left lacked fuel to go anywhere. Its only hope was that it could be so costly to completely defeat that the Allies would decide to let it keep a bit of its ill-gotten gains, but the USSR's declaration of war just ensured that the only power left that might mediate for something other than unconditional surrender wasn't going to.

After Germany lost WW1 it was able to re-arm and try again a generation later, and both the Allies and members of the Japanese military were aware of the possibility of Japan doing the same. And the war in Europe was over, people had had enough of the Pacific as well.

Now, not saying that Japan would have gotten the surrender it wanted, just that it may well have seemed a possibility to people at the time.

 

[thebobmaster]

There was also concern that, unless something drastic was done to frighten the Japanese into surrender, the Japanese population would fight to the last man, causing higher casualties on both sides. Let's not forget, Hirohito had to be smuggled to the ship to sign the peace treaty for fear that someone would assassinate him to prevent the signing.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Well, you could argue that it played a major part in ending the Japanese government determination to get better terms to end the war, though here were of course other factors, such as the USSR getting involved.

The Japanese government at that time was dominated by the military. They didn't really give much of a damn about civilians being bombed, because they weren't in any way accountable to those civilians. The Japanese refusal to accept the allies peace terms was caused by an internal deadlock within the government itself. Noone changed their minds due to the horrific impact of strategic bombing, the prime minister (Kantaro Suzuki) asked the Emperor to break the deadlock and he did.

 

[Dalisclock]

The Japanese government at that time was dominated by the military. They didn't really give much of a damn about civilians being bombed, because they weren't in any way accountable to those civilians. The Japanese refusal to accept the allies peace terms was caused by an internal deadlock within the government itself. Noone changed their minds due to the horrific impact of strategic bombing, the prime minister (Kantaro Suzuki) asked the Emperor to break the deadlock and he did.

Even worse, IIRC, it wasn't just that the Japanese government was dominated by the military, it was that it was dominated by different groups within the military, where the Imperial Japanese Navy(IJN) and the Imperial Japanese Army(IJA) essentially were governments unto themselves within the japanese government that pretty much didn't get along or do much to coordinate at all. The IJN would do what was best for the Navy and the IJA would do what was best for the Army and fuck everyone else. including the country at large.

During the Cold War, US Air Force General Curtis LeMay said ' The Soviets are our adversary. Our enemy is the Navy". Now imagine that for World War 2 but far worse because niether the IJA or the IJN seem to really wanted to admit they're on the same team.

 

[Generals]

Pft, everyone knows you're supposed to claim nuclear WMDs to justify an invasion, not biological ones.

Now now, Russia has already claimed Ukraine wanted to make and use dirty (nuclear) bombs. The beauty about Russian propaganda is that it never stops, it always keeps on finding new things. It's a bit like Qanon conspiracies.

 

[Dalisclock]

Now now, Russia has already claimed Ukraine wanted to make and use dirty (nuclear) bombs. The beauty about Russian propaganda is that it never stops, it always keeps on finding new things. It's a bit like Qanon conspiracies.

I'm pretty sure the two are related.

 

[Seanchaidh]

cool and normal

 

[Seanchaidh]

Most of us, I think, are perfectly capable of appreciating that this situation is complex and lacking in moral clarity. Seanchaidh's problem isn't that they think this situation is complex, it's that they're practically the only person in this thread who doesn't think the situation is complex.

Very well fantasized. The willingness in the West to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian with no other foreseeable outcome than to prolong the conflict and increase the number of dead is truly courageous. There is quite a depth of moral understanding undergirding that impulse.

 

[Avnger]

cool and normal

Yeah... shame on Reuters for the ambiguous title. Otherwise it looks like much of a nothingburger. It's extremely limited in both scope of what's allowed and when it's allowed.

Regarding Russian soldiers:

Meta Platforms (FB.O) will allow Facebook and Instagram users in some countries to call for violence against Russians and Russian soldiers in the context of the Ukraine invasion, according to internal emails seen by Reuters on Thursday, in a temporary change to its hate speech policy.

The temporary policy changes on calls for violence to Russian soldiers apply to Armenia, Azerbaijan, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, and Ukraine, according to one email.

"We are issuing a spirit-of-the-policy allowance to allow T1 violent speech that would otherwise be removed under the Hate Speech policy when: (a) targeting Russian soldiers, EXCEPT prisoners of war, or (b) targeting Russians where it's clear that the context is the Russian invasion of Ukraine (e.g., content mentions the invasion, self-defense, etc.)," it said in the email.

Regarding Putin & Lukashenko:

The social media company is also temporarily allowing some posts that call for death to Russian President Vladimir Putin or Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko in countries including Russia, Ukraine and Poland, according to internal emails to its content moderators.

The calls for the leaders' deaths will be allowed unless they contain other targets or have two indicators of credibility, such as the location or method, one email said, in a recent change to the company's rules on violence

 

[Avnger]

Very well fantasized. The willingness in the West to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian with no other foreseeable outcome than to prolong the conflict and increase the number of dead is truly courageous. There is quite a depth of moral understanding undergirding that impulse.

LOL. Yes, how dare the dastardly West not force Ukraine to unconditionally submit to Russia's imperialist invasion.

 

[Seanchaidh]

If we're talking magnitude, Wagner is worse. It's 6 times the size, and has been involved in more aggressive actions than Azov.

Does it have a state that actively glamorizes collaboration with Hitler, ethnic cleansing, and genocide (by naming the leader of OUN a national hero)? Azov can be as small as you want it to be, it's still normalized by Ukraine-- not treated as shameful or unfortunate, but often prominently featured in its public relations. Oh, and armed with heavy weaponry and paid a salary by the state. But they're not doing anything "aggressive" when they shoot volleys of rockets into the Donbass.

 

[Silvanus]

Does it have a state that actively glamorizes collaboration with Hitler, ethnic cleansing, and genocide (by naming the leader of OUN a national hero)? Azov can be as small as you want it to be, it's still normalized by Ukraine-- not treated as shameful or unfortunate, but often prominently featured in its public relations. Oh, and armed with heavy weaponry and paid a salary by the state. But they're not doing anything "aggressive" when they shoot volleys of rockets into the Donbass.

I said "more", not that Azov didn't take part in aggression. Wagner has been utilised (also provided for by the Russian state) in invasions of foreign countries, which is what I was referring to.

And yes, Russia does have a government with a very active role in the promotion of far-right violence: it covertly sponsors Nazi and fascist groups overseas, and operates a regime in Chechnya which takes part in the systematic extermination of specific groups.

 

[Seanchaidh]

And yes, Russia does have a government with a very active role in the promotion of far-right violence: it covertly sponsors Nazi and fascist groups overseas, and operates a regime in Chechnya which takes part in the systematic extermination of specific groups.

So the answer to my question was 'no', then.

Ukraine overtly advertises its neo-Nazi regiment and glorifies a collaborator of Hitler.

 

[Trunkage]

LOL. Yes, how dare the dastardly West not force Ukraine to unconditionally submit to Russia's imperialist invasion.

It's what Sean has been asking for all along

Edit: I actually don't care if it's imperialist or not. Invasion is the key word for me

 

[Trunkage]

So the answer to my question was 'no', then.

Ukraine overtly advertises its neo-Nazi regiment and glorifies a collaborator of Hitler.

Can you tell me why they allowed Azov in?