The Shattered Elden Ring Thread: Tarnished Edition - (Shadow of the Erdtree p. 85)

[BrawlMan]

Hidetaka Miyazaki says Elden Ring’s release was ‘not a very pleasant time’ | VGC

Elden Ring director Hidetaka Miyazaki has revealed his anxieties around the launch of Elden Ring, and his thoughts on the evolution of the Souls series as a whole.

www.videogameschronicle.com

Didn’t realize ER and Sekiro were being developed simultaneously.

Makes sense. This is nothing new. When Dark Souls 2 was in mid-development, the guy put all his attention on Bloodborne. Hence the quality of the former so much. And after Bloodborne was completed, Miyazaki immediately went to work on Dark Souls 3.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Makes sense. This is nothing new. When Dark Souls 2 was in mid-development, the guy put all his attention on Bloodborne. Hence the quality of the former so much. And after Bloodborne was completed, Miyazaki immediately went to work on Dark Souls 3.

I wonder what game he is immediately shifting focus on now. I hope it's a vacation.

 

[SilentPony]

I wonder what game he is immediately shifting focus on now. I hope it's a vacation.

I hope its Bloodborne 2.
I've said this about Dark Souls and Sekiro, and Im saying it about Elden Ring; We got THIS instead of Bloodborne 2?! Seriously?! Its like Ben and Jerry made vanilla ice cream with DS1, chocolate with Bloodborne, and instead of doing the natural next step of chocolate and peanut butter with Bloodborne 2, they're doing fucking cotton candy with Sekiro and birthday cake with Elden Ring.
Fine flavors, glad you enjoy it, we're kinda waiting on the serious sequel here, enough with the candy flavors.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I hope its Bloodborne 2.
I've said this about Dark Souls and Sekiro, and Im saying it about Elden Ring; We got THIS instead of Bloodborne 2?! Seriously?! Its like Ben and Jerry made vanilla ice cream with DS1, chocolate with Bloodborne, and instead of doing the natural next step of chocolate and peanut butter with Bloodborne 2, they're doing fucking cotton candy with Sekiro and birthday cake with Elden Ring.
Fine flavors, glad you enjoy it, we're kinda waiting on the serious sequel here, enough with the candy flavors.

To be fair, I don't think FromSoft can just make a Bloodborne 2. Sony owns that IP and it would be on Sony to decide to contract out a sequel.

Personally I would rather FromSoft do a Cyberpunk Souls game over yet another hideous monster clusterfuck tbh. Bring on the crazy machines and Terminators.

 

[Dalisclock]

I wonder what game he is immediately shifting focus on now. I hope it's a vacation.

There are Rumors of another Armored Core game, so maybe that? Then again, rumors could be anything.

I hope its Bloodborne 2.
I've said this about Dark Souls and Sekiro, and Im saying it about Elden Ring; We got THIS instead of Bloodborne 2?! Seriously?! Its like Ben and Jerry made vanilla ice cream with DS1, chocolate with Bloodborne, and instead of doing the natural next step of chocolate and peanut butter with Bloodborne 2, they're doing fucking cotton candy with Sekiro and birthday cake with Elden Ring.
Fine flavors, glad you enjoy it, we're kinda waiting on the serious sequel here, enough with the candy flavors.

I mean, I really adored BB but it's possible From isn't interested. I get the impression BB was Miyazaki's special project and now that it's done he's not interested in doing another. Of course, ironically influences from BB keep seeping into DS3 and ER so there's that.

Makes sense. This is nothing new. When Dark Souls 2 was in mid-development, the guy put all his attention on Bloodborne. Hence the quality of the former so much. And after Bloodborne was completed, Miyazaki immediately went to work on Dark Souls 3.

I was under the impression BB was the game Miyazaki wanted to do after Dark Souls and production had already started on it when the DLC for Dark Souls was released(there's argualy a reference to BB in the DLC, even if its non-canonical). Dark Souls 2 was apparently greenlit sometime after this but Miyazaki was already hard at work on the passion project(BB). Granted, DS2 had a really troubled dev cycle which was exacerbated by the ambition it had(problems with the new game/lighting engine for DS2 meant less time for actual game development) which is part of the problem.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Of course, ironically influences from BB keep seeping into DS3 and ER so there's that.

I think it more has to do with him improving the combat formula over time, rather than any direct influences. He has yet to do trick weapons again.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Miyazaki has stated interest in returning to BB but said the decision wasn’t up to him.

"I'm not the one to decide," says Hidetaka Miyazaki of Bloodborne 2

The FromSoftware president also says Bloodborne is his favorite Souls game

www.gamesradar.com

Given how stingy Sony’s been with getting the game a PC port or even a proper 60fps patch it’s highly likely their priorities shifted away from that.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

One of the comments sums it up in a different way -

UnrealJess19 hours ago
As an aspiring game designer myself, I like to draw a parallel with educating a child when talking about it: Good parents will warn their child about the dangers ahead and walk alongside them to help them up should they fall, but will still let them fall so they acquire experience and strength of character to move forward. Bad parents will spoon-feed everything to their child and never let them experience anything other than what's "right" or "good for you" and in the end they'll have risen a witless twat that's not ready for adult life, let alone the world, at all.

That's From Soft in relation to other devs: They fill their worlds with things for us to find and offer only the most basic form of guidance so that the player will learn to explore on their own, to feel the satisfaction of finding the next hidden secret whatever it may be, to grow stronger from failure and even misery - not by giving us stats or bonuses in the game itself, but by training us, as players, to adapt to the world and circumstances they created. FromSoft's players will, in turn, know that there's something more ahead, and not only in terms of treasures or rewards mind you, and will keep coming back for it, not because they are afraid of not getting their money's worth in fun, but because they learned to create their own fun with the tools they were given and this, THIS is something truly special.

Other devs are just too afraid that their community won't come back for their next release because the current one didn't spoon-fed them enough "fun" that they will want more. They don't teach their players anything - instead they cultivate their gluttony and greed by guiding them to the next map marker because this sort of "fun" can be quantified and is "obviously" the better kind and that is what will give 'em the big bucks the next time another generic-ass game is put on the market by them.

Now, I'm not saying other games are just bad. I'm having probably as much fun with H:FW as I'm having with ER, just a different kind, and they both have things to learn from - good AND bad. Elden Ring, for instance, still has many of the really bullshit (bullshit and bad being actually different things, mind) design choices that Miyazaki loves to put in his games. It's really that most of the newer FromSoft players have never dealt with this sort of design before and , because of that - because they weren't prepared for this, they think it's inherently bad.

Now, to address other game developers talking smack about the design choices in Elden Ring, I have a really simple statement / question to make: if these design choices are, indeed, so wrong, outdated and inaccessible, why are Miyazaki's games some of the most successful games we've seen since Dark Souls? (The original release of Demon's Souls wasn't as successful as some people seem to think, unfortunately.)

Just some food for thought.

 

[Brokencontroller]

@hanselthecaretaker that comment immediately looses the analogy with the parents comparison. In his example the parents are showing the child along but letting them fail on their own. The parent is still guiding the child.

Elden Ring does not guide the player shit. Sure are the tools for success scattered about? Yes, but there is absolutely no guidance in regards to helping the player find those tools.

And the game certainly doesnt give a fuck if you win or lose. It wont pick you up, it wont offer help if you fail x amount of times, it wont direct you anyway if you miss something critical.

It isnt so much as trusting the player as it is going, "huh what? Oh yeah there is stuff out there, where? I dunno fucker figure it out, or dont i dont give a shit. Do what you want."

Then it laughs when a big monster kills you, "hahaha oh my god you tried to fight that guy with the sword of killing demigods? How fucking stupid can you be? I obviously placed that sword on the other side of the world behind a hidden wall behind another boss that you need a specific spell to beat which is found split between 4 churches that each require a passcode that is hidden in towers that require a different spell to open......jesus how obvious can i make it? Dumbass."

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

@hanselthecaretaker that comment immediately looses the analogy with the parents comparison. In his example the parents are showing the child along but letting them fail on their own. The parent is still guiding the child.

Elden Ring does not guide the player shit. Sure are the tools for success scattered about? Yes, but there is absolutely no guidance in regards to helping the player find those tools.

And the game certainly doesnt give a fuck if you win or lose. It wont pick you up, it wont offer help if you fail x amount of times, it wont direct you anyway if you miss something critical.

It isnt so much as trusting the player as it is going, "huh what? Oh yeah there is stuff out there, where? I dunno fucker figure it out, or dont i dont give a shit. Do what you want."

Then it laughs when a big monster kills you, "hahaha oh my god you tried to fight that guy with the sword of killing demigods? How fucking stupid can you be? I obviously placed that sword on the other side of the world behind a hidden wall behind another boss that you need a specific spell to beat which is found split between 4 churches that each require a passcode that is hidden in towers that require a different spell to open......jesus how obvious can i make it? Dumbass."

It’s not a perfect analogy but it gets the gist across well enough. The game isn’t sadistically punishing like a rogue or even roguelite, and gives enough tools to let the player try as much as they want without and really crushing setbacks. Even weapon degradation isn’t an issue now. The game is clearly designed in a specific way, and the grace pointers are more generous than any past FROM game has been for guidance.

Not entirely sure if you’re just being facetious or sarcastic, but no game should make someone as bitter as you’re making it sound though. Maybe it’s not for you?

 

[Dalisclock]

Even weapon degradation isn’t an issue now.

Not to take away from your point, but I kinda forgot that was even a thing to be a honest. I only noticed it in Dark Souls 2 because it was so quick but in Dark Souls I basically just had my primary weapons repaired every so often and I was fine. By the time it really mattered the cost was a pittance in comparison to how many souls I was pulling it on the regular. It did beg the question why they bothered with it in Dark Souls 1 but then I remember the crystal weapons which degrade and can't be repaired.

I think it more has to do with him improving the combat formula over time, rather than any direct influences. He has yet to do trick weapons again.

Now I'm sad that there are no trick weapons.

Thanks, @CriticalGaming

 

[Brokencontroller]

It’s not a perfect analogy but it gets the gist across well enough. The game isn’t sadistically punishing like a rogue or even roguelite, and gives enough tools to let the player try as much as they want without and really crushing setbacks. Even weapon degradation isn’t an issue now. The game is clearly designed in a specific way, and the grace pointers are more generous than any past FROM game has been for guidance.

Not entirely sure if you’re just being facetious or sarcastic, but no game should make someone as bitter as you’re making it sound though. Maybe it’s not for you?

Yahtzee actually used a similar analogy in on of his previous zp's.

The game does have tools scattered about, but the problem is that there is no guarantee or direction towards finding stuff for your playstyle or preference. Sure you can use anything but if youve been spending your levels in str and dex than that spell staff that is really good isnt going to help you much. Or if you blast away tree sentinel with sick spells, his polearm isnt going to be much of a reward.

Im find with no hand holding the player to a degree. But there should be some guidance to get the player at least started. I dont feel like the game does that enough. Just like i hate that very important npc's are missable which is just obsurd and serves no purpose.

Did you know leveling your summon spells is hidden behind a mutli stage quest? That you can miss easily or screw up? And if you do it, tough shit level 1 summons for you buddy.

 

[Elijin]

Getting the item that allows summons at all is literally a "right place, right time" with nothing to drive you to it. Have been watching a blind playthrough, zero outside help. Really puts a spotlight on how half assed the game is about teaching basics.

 

[EvilRoy]

Getting the item that allows summons at all is literally a "right place, right time" with nothing to drive you to it. Have been watching a blind playthrough, zero outside help. Really puts a spotlight on how half assed the game is about teaching basics.

Wait until you see how hard it is to get the item that allows you to invade the first time. I know its probably not a priority in this game given how invasions have been changed, but its like... I don't think you could do it without having spent at least 10 hours in game and even then although you are pointed towards it (if you revisit the right place), there is no reason to believe that taking this specific action would lead you to getting the invasion item. I absolutely bumbled into it twenty five hours in, and I guess I'm gonna invade some peeps because if nothing else I feel obligated to carry out the NPC quest because it was such a stroke of luck I found this at all.

 

[BrawlMan]

@hanselthecaretaker, @CriticalGaming, @Brokencontroller, @Dalisclock, and @SilentPony. Yahtzee has another topic on the game.

Elden Ring Lets Its Open World Speak for Itself - Extra Punctuation

This week on Extra Punctuation, Yahtzee discusses why the open world in Elden Ring is such a success -- and why so many others still are not.

www.escapistmagazine.com

 

[SilentPony]

@hanselthecaretaker, @CriticalGaming, @Brokencontroller, @Dalisclock, and @SilentPony. Yahtzee has another topic on the game.

Elden Ring Lets Its Open World Speak for Itself - Extra Punctuation

This week on Extra Punctuation, Yahtzee discusses why the open world in Elden Ring is such a success -- and why so many others still are not.

www.escapistmagazine.com

See I'm not sure I agree that Elden Ring isnt a golf course. Yeah its ""open world"" but there is a very clear progression path you're supposed to take. You're not supposed to go this way or that way and 99% of the monsters are higher level then you. People say it really opens up 5 or 6 hours in after you stumble blindly into several critical game mechanics that really should have been open from the start. But when Square Enix releases Final Fantasy 13 and it gets good 6 hours in, it's a insult to players for wasting time.
Im enjoying the game, sure, but I'm very much aware Im treading water, and even 10 hours in, HUGE parts of the game mechanics haven't been explained. I keep getting "Ashes of War" and no one has explained what they are, and why I should bother. And that's to say nothing about what the story is.
I went South and just laid waste to an entire peninsula. Its fun. No idea what's going on and apparently Im not supposed to be here as my first zone. I was supposed to go a different direction. But the game is actually really bad the first few hours at...well...everything, save the central fighting mechanics, which as a Souls player I can get through.
I've fought and killed something like a dozen bosses and have no idea who they were, why they attacked me, why I fought them, why killing them mattered and why I got something.
The linear nature of the SoulsBorne games is more, well, linear, but its linear in the same way a book is. There's a story to tell. Elden Ring is like taking every page in a book and spreading it on the ground and you let the reader piece the story together. There is no pacing whatsoever. I've had NPCs reference other NPCs I've never met, like someone in a "white mask" who I apparently work with, someone mentioned a dragon I was a nitwit for fighting, despite not having fought a dragon, someone mentioned me being part of some kingdom, no clue what they're talking about, someone is jealous of my fingering of a maiden and we've only been on one date. Without a detailed step by step guide, the dialogue assignment and progression is totally fucked. The gameplay is fun, but this is very much a "No player without the entire wiki allowed" story.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

@hanselthecaretaker, @CriticalGaming, @Brokencontroller, @Dalisclock, and @SilentPony. Yahtzee has another topic on the game.

Elden Ring Lets Its Open World Speak for Itself - Extra Punctuation

This week on Extra Punctuation, Yahtzee discusses why the open world in Elden Ring is such a success -- and why so many others still are not.

www.escapistmagazine.com

Which basically reaffirms the points made in the video above about the game not wanting you to find everything. How many games do this? Certainly few. I think it once again brings up the detrimental side of numerical scoring and “must play” labels all over social media sites. Not everyone is going to enjoy this kind of game design, as it’s absolutely geared towards a certain crowd who appreciates and maybe even enjoys the occasional mind fuck (for entertainment purposes of course). But when anyone who bothers looking at reviews sees the accolades they’ll natural be thinking, “Hey, this actually sounds approachable!”

Which makes the hype machine a bit disingenuous and even misleading because no, the game is still going to fuck with the player regardless of the added QoL stuff. That’s pretty much in FROM’s DNA. Fuck, maybe ESRB ratings systems aren’t enough. Maybe what games need are content descriptions, including mention of difficult curves that some sites used to have.

I have to wonder: if the game wasn’t open world, and maybe kept the new story but with traditional Dark Souls level design, would it have garnered the same reaction? Would people have been more apt to praise it? Highly doubtful. The next step had to be FROM at their most ambitious. “It was expected from the beginning that this work would be the largest scale ever.”, Miyazaki has stated. A culmination of everything they’ve done since the whole Soul train started; in a way bound to this path by their own success.

Its obtuseness and cryptic systems aren’t at all new concepts, and coupled with the larger scale it was bound to turn some people off. But this is what helped build their reputation, and it will still be discussed and dissected years from now, maintaining relevance by the Vaati’s and whoever else has an audience willing to listen. By contrast, that kind of added value winds up being absent from games designed to spend it all up front.

 

[Brokencontroller]

Which basically reaffirms the points made in the video above about the game not wanting you to find everything. How many games do this? Certainly few. I think it once again brings up the detrimental side of numerical scoring and “must play” labels all over social media sites. Not everyone is going to enjoy this kind of game design, as it’s absolutely geared towards a certain crowd who appreciates and maybe even enjoys the occasional mind fuck (for entertainment purposes of course). But when anyone who bothers looking at reviews sees the accolades they’ll natural be thinking, “Hey, this actually sounds approachable!”

Which makes the hype machine a bit disingenuous and even misleading because no, the game is still going to fuck with the player regardless of the added QoL stuff. That’s pretty much in FROM’s DNA. Fuck, maybe ESRB ratings systems aren’t enough. Maybe what games need are content descriptions, including mention of difficult curves that some sites used to have.

I have to wonder: if the game wasn’t open world, and maybe kept the new story but with traditional Dark Souls level design, would it have garnered the same reaction? Would people have been more apt to praise it? Highly doubtful. The next step had to be FROM at their most ambitious. “It was expected from the beginning that this work would be the largest scale ever.”, Miyazaki has stated. A culmination of everything they’ve done since the whole Soul train started; in a way bound to this path by their own success.

Its obtuseness and cryptic systems aren’t at all new concepts, and coupled with the larger scale it was bound to turn some people off. But this is what helped build their reputation, and it will still be discussed and dissected years from now, maintaining relevance by the Vaati’s and whoever else has an audience willing to listen. By contrast, that kind of added value winds up being absent from games designed to spend it all up front.

Imagine if they had made elden ring like a tree. Where your goal is the explore every branch. You start at the trunk working your way through a linear (mostly) path where you get the hang of the game, and the game teaches you the key mechanics you will need going forward.

Then you hit a hug area like Majula but bigger and maybe semi open worldish. Perhaps lingrave itself as an example. Then from thus hub you can start to take any of the branches you want. There are a huge amount of them and while they most follow the great level design From is famous for, they still remain clear singular paths of progression. Though perhaps several can loop over and around each other for confusion and elaborating fun.

Fundamentally this could still be a huge game and more open than a typical From game. But at the same time it would keep the core ideas that make from games great. It gives players a huge scope, while remaining true to its roots.

If From makes the next game like this, do you think people will praise the open world the same way? Already ive seen people reviewing the game after 150hours or 100%ing the game and the most common thread of critique ive seen is, the open world gets samey and some of the difficulty is flat out unfair to the player. When pro Souls players are admiting that the boss design is bullshit, then the integrity of the series begins to breakdown.

 

[Chupathingy]

I really wasn't feeling my strength/faith build for a while, but now that I have the Golden halberd, a bunch of incantations, and the spell slots to use them, the game is really starting to come together. While parts of the open world and dungeons are samey, the cool weapons, arts, and spells you get as rewards make it worth exploring. I just wish it was easier to find full sets of clothing.

 

[Casual Shinji]

So I've been playing for about an hour and a half, and man, the lock-on still sucks in these games, huh? Tried to fight a trio of batmen and got killed because the lock-on was so nice as to veer my focus away from precisely the one closest to me.

Haven't experienced much of the open-world, but so far I can't help but be reminded of the rather tepid atmosphere of Dragon's Dogma. I can't say it has the same "life" to it as nearly every other Soulsborne game I've played.

I like the roly poly sheep though. And there's finally a dedicated jump button, so baby steps I guess.