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Seanchaidh

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So, you (and maybe one or two others a bit) are the only true leftwingers on the forum?
It would be more correct to say that the imperial hegemony over discourse includes justifications to perpetuate imperial power with an allegedly "anti-imperialist" frame.

The Right: America should remain the strongest Empire, entitled to rule over the Earth
The Left: Look at all these other places that seem to want to be strong Empires! America must squash them!

Ideological consistency is maintained for the left by performative opposition to American empire that, crucially, comes without any practical consequence. Thus the imperialist vs "anti-imperialist" discourse is leveraged to the global empire's advantage.

On a related note, I don't think the geographical distribution of sanctioners is a great coincidence:

Those that have had countless wars and other aggressive actions perpetrated against them by the American Empire don't seem all that impressed by claims of Russian malfeasance.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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It would be more correct to say that the imperial hegemony over discourse includes justifications to perpetuate imperial power with an allegedly "anti-imperialist" frame.

The Right: America should remain the strongest Empire, entitled to rule over the Earth
The Left: Look at all these other places that seem to want to be strong Empires! America must squash them!
You: The only answer for American imperialism is more imperialism!

How about nobody gets a fucking Empire?
 
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EvilRoy

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It remains a mystery why the brutal and authoritarian Ukrainian regime should receive any help to lengthen a war that harms the people of both countries. Well, not really; the brutal and authoritarian Ukrainian regime is ours. And as for supporting Russia invading its neighbors, the people who have done that twice now are the ones who encouraged Ukraine and Georgia to act like they were going to join NATO.
I really question your label of "brutal and authoritarian" with respect to Ukraine, but instead of asking you to explain how you managed to reach that particular conclusion I'm going to ask you instead to describe how being ruled by Russia will make this better for Ukraine. I know you're very upset about nazi influence in Ukraine, or at least you claim to be I honestly think your reaction has more to do with trying to make Ukraine deserve the invasion somehow to make your position less morally questionable, but what else is there. What brutal and authoritarian things are present in Ukraine that are not also present in Russia to a greater degree that will be reduced or eliminated under Russian rule?
 

tstorm823

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"publicly the doors will remain open"--but privately the answer is no-- is almost perfectly crafted to give the highest chance of Russia invading Ukraine. The United States wanted this war. The United States wants to prolong this war; wants to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. Ukraine has been used.
I would like everyone here to understand that the global talking points about America or specifically the CIA engineering every war (that most of you have likely considered valid at some point) are formulated by people who think like this above.

The United States forced Russia to invade Ukraine by virtue of existing? I don't think so.
 

Silvanus

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Indeed, there is also propaganda for the gullible pseudo-left. Support the maintenance and expansion of American power, but make it sound like a humanitarian cause!
Yes, the gullible pseudo-left, doing the work of ultra-capitalists for them. Those guys.

*cough*

Does opposing the "maintenance and expansion of American power" involve automatic endorsement of any actions undertaken by a geopolitical rival, no matter how godforsaken and brutal, no matter whether they actually benefit anyone but the war-profiteers? Or is there actually a line? Just wondering if it's complete carte blanche or just some selective hypocrisy.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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It's typical anti western neo commie tactics and our communist party does exactly the same. They don't openly praise Russia or China (or their leaders) as that would be quite easy to condemn. Instead they avoid criticizing them and continuously try to move the goalpost by making it about the West (or its allies) even if it involves taking over propaganda fabricated by fascist dictatorships. As long as it's anti West it's good to go!

The articles you have posted may have not explicitly said it's ok to invade Ukraine because "..." but it sure did shift the responsibility of the invasion from Russia to everyone else. Basically suggesting Russia's justifications for this war are right.



Oh please, I have listened to actual and ex government officials, (ex) diplomats, military experts, academics specializing in Russian affairs, etc. Mainstream media around the globe bring in a lot of actual experts to table. You shouldn't think you're well informed by watching one youtube video of one person with (semi) relevant credentials.

But please do explain how Ukraine provoked this war...
The articles weren't praising Russia. And who's praising China like ever (outside of the very occasional things they do well at)? I go so far not to use any software that has China's fingerprints on it. Doling out responsibility across the spectrum isn't shifting them. When did I or any of the articles I posted say Ukraine provoked the war?

How did you find this video then ? A google suggestion based on your previous search history and whom you paid attention to for how long? A recommendation from one of your social media channels full of like-minded individuals ?

But maybe it really was coincidence that you stumbled over some lieutenant colonel pushing Russian propaganda first. Still doesn't make it any less propaganda.


I remember 2001 being full of mainstream media not stopping to repeat that while the US claims to have proof of WMDs, it not willing to show it, international observers didn't find anything and most of the other Western intellignce services remaining quite unconvinced of their existence. I remember that aside from the five eyes who obviously didn't want to endanger their collaboration too much, pretty much every single other service provided statements aklong the lines of WMDs unlikely to nonexistent.
If you would have done what i suggested in 2001, namely looking at how other, less involved countries report it, you would have known that the US was making things up to get war support internally and that hardly anyone else believed them. That even most of the "coalition of the willing" was not convinced and participated mostly to get the US' favor.
Yes, even western mainstream would have shown that if you had been willing to look beyond your border. Because the US is not really able to control the whole or even the majority of western mainstream.


It is very different this time. Where in 2001 every push of Iraqs WMDs could be tracked to the US gouvernment or agencies with no one else corrobating it, it is now the allegations of Ukrainian bio weapons or Ukrainian atrocities towards ethnic Russians that always can be traced back to Russia and its cronies.
First of all why does it matter the news source? It's the person being interviewed that matters and what they're saying. And, I posted said video in this thread.

IT'S NOT FUCKING PROPAGANDA. The Lt col is a trusted source and won awards for providing information in the past, there's no reason to accuse him of pushing Russian propaganda. Unless you have something to prove that wrong, please stop calling everything you think is wrong propaganda. Everything now that people don't agree with is either conspiracy theories, misinformation, fringe opinion, propaganda, etc.

The Russian collusion things that sent like 14 member of Trump staff to jail?

Thanks, Greg.
And how many of those 14 members went to jail because of actual Russian collusion?

 

TheMysteriousGX

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This is not accomplished by maintaining the unipolar hegemony of the United States.
Violently absorbing Ukraine is not going to diminish the unipolar hegemony of the United States but it sure as hell is gonna validate NATO in the eyes of Russia's non-NATO neighbors. Kind of an own goal if the goal is to diminish the unipolar hegemony of the United States honestly. Especially if you're doing it so badly that Ukraine could very well pull off a negotiated win

If the goal is to diminish the unipolar hegemony of the United States, China's outreach to less developed nations is the way to go. Doubly so on the off chance it's got pure motivations behind it.
 

Silvanus

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And as for supporting Russia invading its neighbors, the people who have done that twice now are the ones who encouraged Ukraine and Georgia to act like they were going to join NATO.
😂

So "acting like" its going to do something is a legitimate casus beli (a reminder inserted here that Saddam at one point intentionally refused to answer whether he had WMDs, but that didn't seem to convince any of us that basing an invasion on that kind of supposition was OK), but meanwhile literally being invaded and annexed is not legitimate grounds to use their armed forces to defend their own territory.

Absolutely stellar.

The United States wanted this war.
Hey! We finally found something you agree with them about! Momentous!
 
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Satinavian

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IT'S NOT FUCKING PROPAGANDA. The Lt col is a trusted source and won awards for providing information in the past, there's no reason to accuse him of pushing Russian propaganda. Unless you have something to prove that wrong, please stop calling everything you think is wrong propaganda. Everything now that people don't agree with is either conspiracy theories, misinformation, fringe opinion, propaganda, etc.
Ok, i tried to take another look at your Lt col.

And i must indeed apologize. I somehow assumed the author of one of those 3 articles you linked in the post i called Russian propaganda had those credentials. You answered to my comment on them so i assumed those were what we were writing about. I had read them but not paid much attention to the authors.

But no. It was a video you linked earlier that i missed.

I have seen it now and no, he does come off as sincere and trustworthy and is not shilling propaganda. However, i do think he has now been proven wrong on several accounts. He overestimated Russian forces (like everyone else as well, so not a mark against him). And he actually believed Putin would be doing this because of NATO and would be willing to let the Ukraine be if only it never joins NATO. Which Selenskyi has offered long ago to give up but Putin just keeps pushing for territorial gain and puppet regime.

I also kinda disagree with him about the morality of letting Russia have a sphere of influence. But he doesn't call that appropriate in any way, he only justifies it with necessity and apparent reluctance to actually defend Ukraine. That is a valid stance.
 
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Generals

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The articles weren't praising Russia.
Let me quote the message you quoted:
"It's typical anti western neo commie tactics and our communist party does exactly the same. They don't openly praise Russia or China (or their leaders) as that would be quite easy to condemn. Instead they avoid criticizing them and continuously try to move the goalpost by making it about the West (or its allies) even if it involves taking over propaganda fabricated by fascist dictatorships. As long as it's anti West it's good to go! "

And who's praising China like ever (outside of the very occasional things they do well at)?
A lot of hard anti West neo commies do. But again, not openly praising, just continuously minimizing the shit they do and repeating their propaganda.

When did I or any of the articles I posted say Ukraine provoked the war?
If Ukraine didn't provoke this war than none of the provocations you may cite are relevant. You don't invade country A because country B made you angry. By that logic the US gets to invade any country it wants because Russia just pissed it off.
 
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Trunkage

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Violently absorbing Ukraine is not going to diminish the unipolar hegemony of the United States but it sure as hell is gonna validate NATO in the eyes of Russia's non-NATO neighbors. Kind of an own goal if the goal is to diminish the unipolar hegemony of the United States honestly. Especially if you're doing it so badly that Ukraine could very well pull off a negotiated win

If the goal is to diminish the unipolar hegemony of the United States, China's outreach to less developed nations is the way to go. Doubly so on the off chance it's got pure motivations behind it.
At this rate, Russia has done everything perfectly to prop up the US and NATO. If anything, Putin is far more likely to be working FOR the US, rather than against it or trying to reduce hegemony
 
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Trunkage

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If Ukraine didn't provoke this war than none of the provocations you may cite are relevant. You don't invade country A because country B made you angry. By that logic the US gets to invade any country it wants because Russia just pissed it off.
Sweden and Finland kept getting threatened with nuclear bombs. Biden HAS to invade. It just makes sense
 
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Trunkage

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Oh, I should add, the utter nonsense of the Allies in WW1 being mean to Germany during peace/reparations negotiations means that Hitler can invade countries is some of the biggest lies still in text books

You can say that the Allies were mean. That's got nothing to do with invading countries
 
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Trunkage

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And how many of those 14 members went to jail because of actual Russian collusion?

What do you think Roger Stone went to jail for? Putting the obstruction charges aside, what was he charged with? Or, in other words, what was he doing this obstruction for?
 

Phoenixmgs

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Ok, i tried to take another look at your Lt col.

And i must indeed apologize. I somehow assumed the author of one of those 3 articles you linked in the post i called Russian propaganda had those credentials. You answered to my comment on them so i assumed those were what we were writing about. I had read them but not paid much attention to the authors.

But no. It was a video you linked earlier that i missed.

I have seen it now and no, he does come off as sincere and trustworthy and is not shilling propaganda. However, i do think he has now been proven wrong on several accounts. He overestimated Russian forces (like everyone else as well, so not a mark against him). And he actually believed Putin would be doing this because of NATO and would be willing to let the Ukraine be if only it never joins NATO. Which Selenskyi has offered long ago to give up but Putin just keeps pushing for territorial gain and puppet regime.

I also kinda disagree with him about the morality of letting Russia have a sphere of influence. But he doesn't call that appropriate in any way, he only justifies it with necessity and apparent reluctance to actually defend Ukraine. That is a valid stance.
Thank you. My point has be a lot of times, regardless of subject, is your last sentence. People can have different stances based on the same information, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is nowadays more and more, people just write off any opinion that doesn't agree with theirs as just plain wrong instead actually looking to figure out why and how that person has come to that stance and then actually have a discussion.

Let me quote the message you quoted:
"It's typical anti western neo commie tactics and our communist party does exactly the same. They don't openly praise Russia or China (or their leaders) as that would be quite easy to condemn. Instead they avoid criticizing them and continuously try to move the goalpost by making it about the West (or its allies) even if it involves taking over propaganda fabricated by fascist dictatorships. As long as it's anti West it's good to go! "



A lot of hard anti West neo commies do. But again, not openly praising, just continuously minimizing the shit they do and repeating their propaganda.



If Ukraine didn't provoke this war than none of the provocations you may cite are relevant. You don't invade country A because country B made you angry. By that logic the US gets to invade any country it wants because Russia just pissed it off.
My fault I misread part of that obviously. There's always flaws on both sides and there's nothing wrong with pointing them out. Just because you point out a flaw on Country_A doesn't mean you're minimizing the flaws of Country_B. I don't give out free passes to anyone whether it's video games like Sony, M$, and Nintendo or more important stuff obviously. I agree with your last statement in general theory but it's not always so nice and neat. Like if there wasn't an alternative to invading Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis, I'm sure many would have the stance that an invasion of Cuba would've been provoked by the Soviets and in the best interest of the US to do so. Then, of course, you have the Iraq war where there was literally no provocation at all. Yes, Russia's the bad guys here but it's not as unprovoked as the Iraq war was.
 

Thaluikhain

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It would be more correct to say that the imperial hegemony over discourse includes justifications to perpetuate imperial power with an allegedly "anti-imperialist" frame.

The Right: America should remain the strongest Empire, entitled to rule over the Earth
The Left: Look at all these other places that seem to want to be strong Empires! America must squash them!

Ideological consistency is maintained for the left by performative opposition to American empire that, crucially, comes without any practical consequence. Thus the imperialist vs "anti-imperialist" discourse is leveraged to the global empire's advantage.
I don't see anyone (here) condemning Russia for trying to increase it's power. I see people condemning Russia for invading another country and killing lots of people. If Russia was to increase it's power by, say, gaining more influence in Mongolia with trade deals and infrastructure projects, we'd not see this backlash. Hell, they'd be more likely to increase it's power that way anyway.

China (which actually might become a rival to the US, Russia lost it's chance of that) has been doing that in Africa, and people aren't calling for sanctions for China. There are some concerns about the hooks attached, but at its core that's how nice capitalist nations are supposed to get an empire nowdays, China is playing nice (ish) and so people don't care too much. If it started annexing bits of Africa by force, that'd be a different matter altogether.
 
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Generals

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My fault I misread part of that obviously. There's always flaws on both sides and there's nothing wrong with pointing them out. Just because you point out a flaw on Country_A doesn't mean you're minimizing the flaws of Country_B.
When sources dedicate entire articles explaining people why the West was wrong and in many ways Putin is right they sure are trying to maximize the flaws of one group of countries and minimize the flaws of the other one. And that's extremely problematic, we shouldn't forget that Putin is the one bombing women and children and that in this conflict the West hasn't done anything that remotely comes close to that.

I don't give out free passes to anyone whether it's video games like Sony, M$, and Nintendo or more important stuff obviously. I agree with your last statement in general theory but it's not always so nice and neat. Like if there wasn't an alternative to invading Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis, I'm sure many would have the stance that an invasion of Cuba would've been provoked by the Soviets and in the best interest of the US to do so.
But Cuba would have actively hosted nuclear weapons. The whole "Nato" theory is based on the idea Ukraine has to pay for NATO accepting other countries in it. Because again, Ukraine brought up NATO membership after the 2014 Russian invasion. And also note that as Belarus has said they are willing to host Russian nukes we would now have carte blanche to flatten that country by that logic.

A lot has changed since the Cuban missile crisis.

And let's be quite clear. Putin's "security concerns" have been a load of bullshit since the beginning. His KGB file stated he underestimated risk and the fact he dared invading Ukraine thinking the West wouldn't do much about it is proof he knows damn well NATO would never invade Russia. NATO doesn't even dare give a sovereign nation fighter jets or close off its sky (which it legally could) to avoid direct confrontation with Russia. That's how much of a security threat NATO is to Russia...
The real "threat" NATO poses is the immunity to Russian military bullying it gives to its members, and that's Putin's real problem with NATO. And no, I do not believe allowing countries to join a defensive alliance which gives them the freedom not to be Russian puppet states should be considered a "provocation" or something we should regret doing for any reason whatsoever.

Then, of course, you have the Iraq war where there was literally no provocation at all. Yes, Russia's the bad guys here but it's not as unprovoked as the Iraq war was.
Actually, since Saddam was a horrible dictator who had no issues using chemical weapons on both his foes and his own civilians I would say you have more justification getting rid of that guy than Zelensky. The war in Iraq shouldn't have happened, but the one in Ukraine should even less. This idea that there was more provocation is something you keep on repeating but without actually providing any meaningful provocations.
 
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bluegate

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Phoenix, you aren't well, your technique of consuming the news is failing you, get your head out of your arse, admit that you're being a git and get back to reality.
 
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Hawki

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Oh, I should add, the utter nonsense of the Allies in WW1 being mean to Germany during peace/reparations negotiations means that Hitler can invade countries is some of the biggest lies still in text books
Um, really? Because the idea that Germany felt aggrieved by the Treaty of Versailles was an idea I covered in modern history, but never did it state that Germany was justified, just that the resentment was what Hitler drew on, and there were even thoughts at the time that the terms were too harsh - contrast Wilson's 14 Points with Clemancu's hardline approach for instance.

If we apply that to Russia, for instance, one can understand a hypothetical Russian mindset of NATO "encroaching" upon them, without actually condoning its invasion.