Ukraine

[Gergar12]

Imagine being a leftist against NATO, and then immediately joining up with the least leftist government in Europe to own the libs. I mean I despise most libs because a lot of them are just Hollywood actors and media elite who want to keep the system they made spoils out of, but with better optics, but I don't immediately go, and join the nazis to counter that.

 

[Gordon_4]

Because in a democracy people should be allowed to change what the countries stands for and should do so via parties and election.

While there might be cases where it seems more prudent to ban a party, that should be the ultima ratio and pretty much be reserved for cases where parties outright organize criminal behavior or are found actually preparing a coup.

If you start banning parties just because you very much disagree with them and their goals, you stop being a democracy.

As collaborators during wartime they are getting off lightly just having their party’s political position revoked. In most countries treason in wartime can mean anything from life in prison to execution.

 

[Satinavian]

I think you can make an exception for collaborators during wartime.

Yes, if they actually are proven collaborators. That would certainly fall under "criminal activity".

However i am sceptical that all 11 parties actively helped the invaders and managed to get caught doing so.

 

[bluegate]

Yes, if they actually are proven collaborators. That would certainly fall under "criminal activity".

However i am sceptical that all 11 parties actively helped the invaders and managed to get caught doing so.

They can just start a new party after the war with the same core values they held previously and things will be peachy, unless their core values include sucking up to Russia, that avenue will be closed for the coming few decades or generations even.

 

[Agema]

Yes, if they actually are proven collaborators. That would certainly fall under "criminal activity".

Honestly, I don't think that sort of luxury always exists.

Ukraine is in a existential crisis far beyond normal parameters, and a threat of that magnitude can make it reasonable to curtail certain activities where there is a prime facie case to believe they may collude with the enemy. These parties have been temporarily suspended, not banned: if they are deemed clear of any wrongdoing, the suspension can be lifted later.

An approximate analogy of this would be the right of the justice system to detain someone temporarily prior to trial: the risk to the public from a potential offender's freedom may be deemed sufficiently high to justify their exclusion.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Why should parties that are against what a country stands for be allowed any space?

Because the people have a right to decide that what their country stands for is shit and change it?

Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?

The suspensions have more to do with political polarisation than genuine security concerns related to the invasion.

www.aljazeera.com

The idea that a government which was "democratically elected" after the Ukrainian equivalent of America's Jan. 6 protests unconstitutionally took over the government with the support of western organizations and countries and then banned various political parties and television stations is correct to ban yet more is ridiculous. Indeed, it is evidence that the Ukraine Zelensky is defending isn't even really Ukraine in any significantly democratic sense.

In the case of (c) - probably the main factor - they underweigh that the West also has lots of positive values

Among them an incredible tolerance for self-serving hypocrisy. You're not allowed to build power in your own vicinity in the way that we do routinely all over the globe. Especially not in countries we've subverted into being our own puppets.

The fact that you will blindly insist on the absolute innocence, blamelessness and complete lack of responsibility of the Russian government, a blatantly neo-fascist government that actively oppresses its own people in ways even the USA, barely functioning democracy as it is, would not dare, is not difficult to see through.

Which words of mine have you hallucinated morphing into this bullshit?

These are the people you're attempting to speak for. They deserve better.

?

I am speaking against the imposition of sanctions on Russia and for the earliest possible peace with the least bloodshed. They can agree or disagree; I am not recommending them any course of action. That some of your friends might think pain is justified does not mean I should advocate that we inflict it.

I know it's not necessarily or even likely connected, but suspicious news with another christian run Texas orphanage engaging in child sex trafficking...

Reality writers: "OK, let's make the Kharkiv kid finder an actual thing now."

I never tire of your default assumption that any disagreement with your favoured narrative must be down to propagandist delusion.

Our media invents reality, so it's hardly an unreasonable assumption to make, especially when confronted by a chorus of bleating neocons and liberals.

So overall, just another Russian propaganda piece hardly distinguishable from the rest. What a waste of time.

Each and every one of the points you say are 'lies' are contentious and not obviously false. For example, the Cossack Hetmanate was a vassal of the Ottoman Empire and then of the Russian Tsardom. That is not independence.

 

[bluegate]

The idea that a government which was "democratically elected" after the Ukrainian equivalent of America's Jan. 6 protests unconstitutionally took over the government with the support of western organizations and countries and then banned various political parties and television stations is correct to ban yet more is ridiculous. Indeed, it is evidence that the Ukraine Zelensky is defending isn't even really Ukraine in any significantly democratic sense.

Isn't your tongue raw after all this continuous licking?

 

[Seanchaidh]

can't wait for all of our businesses to be forced to declare that they have business ties to America.

Isn't your tongue raw after all this continuous licking?

expressing skepticism that a country that bans political parties is democratic is bootlicking. this is your brain on liberalism.

 

[Thaluikhain]

can't wait for all of our businesses to be forced to declare that they have business ties to America.

Not just the US, but any number of western nations. You'd also have to decide if sending troops to Iraq after the initial invasion counts as well, and thus trading with, say, Tonga puts you on the list. Very easy for a company to miss a country and be in breach of that. Could have a lot of fun enforcing that if you wanted.

 

[Cheetodust]

Not just the US, but any number of western nations. You'd also have to decide if sending troops to Iraq after the initial invasion counts as well, and thus trading with, say, Tonga puts you on the list. Very easy for a company to miss a country and be in breach of that. Could have a lot of fun enforcing that if you wanted.

What are you talking about? Western nations don't invade, they liberate and introduce democracy. Everyone knows that.

 

[Satinavian]

Each and every one of the points you say are 'lies' are contentious and not obviously false. For example, the Cossack Hetmanate was a vassal of the Ottoman Empire and then of the Russian Tsardom. That is not independence.

It was independend from its birth 1648/1649 until at least 1654. While it asked the Ottomans to be suzerain, that didn't actually happen at the time. They accepted Russia as suzerain in 1654 but still pretty much acted as independend nation including making their own peace with Poland (which might have eventually made them an equal partner in the Polish-Lithuanian Commenwealth) and negotiating with the Ottomans. Only in 1659 after it had a succession dispute and was weakened, the Russian tried to make it a real vassal, which made it side with Poland 1960 in the ongoing Russian-Polish war. Eventually Poland and Russia devided it up when making peace which made the Ukrainians promptly turn to the Ottomans again and agreeing to pay tribute for protection. But even that was not really giving up souverainty, it was a suzerain contract at best as the Ottomans had little interest in actually taking responsibility over that region and only wanted to deny it to Russia and Poland as a buffer state.

While this is certainly a mess, saying that it never had been an independend nation and Ukraine was an invention of Lenins Bolsheviks is a lie. It is even called "Country of Ukraine" in some of the official correspondence of the 17th century.

 

[Silvanus]

Our media invents reality, so it's hardly an unreasonable assumption to make, especially when confronted by a chorus of bleating neocons and liberals.

Just call everyone sheeple and complete the transformation into a stereotype.

Fact is, you're not confronted just with a chorus of neocons and liberals here. There are some. There are also socialists who're capable of identifying hostile, regressive forces regardless of what colour flag they wave.

 

[Lykosia]

So the 'we hate this country and want to end democracy' party is fine, even though in theory it can be voted in to do just that?

That's how democracy works. If people want to vote for a party like that, it's their choice. They have to then carry the consequences.

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

US warns Putin may turn to even more brutal tactics as Ukraine thwarts Russian advances

Ukrainian forces fought off continuing Russian efforts to occupy Mariupol and claimed to have retaken a strategic suburb of Kyiv, mounting a defense so dogged that it is stoking fears Russia’s Vladimir Putin will escalate the war to new heights.

www.independent.ie

We were unsure of the numbers, it's a good thing incompetence has shown us a full scale of death.

 

[Silvanus]

US warns Putin may turn to even more brutal tactics as Ukraine thwarts Russian advances

Ukrainian forces fought off continuing Russian efforts to occupy Mariupol and claimed to have retaken a strategic suburb of Kyiv, mounting a defense so dogged that it is stoking fears Russia’s Vladimir Putin will escalate the war to new heights.

www.independent.ie

We were unsure of the numbers, it's a good thing incompetence has shown us a full scale of death.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this indicate the Russian military and government are concealing soldiers' deaths from their families?

So these soldiers were lied to by their own commanders, who told them they were massing for drills. Then ordered to invade. Then their families are lied to about their status after they've died.

Christ, you can see why morale is so low and surrenders so common.

 

[Satinavian]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this indicate the Russian military and government are concealing soldiers' deaths from their families?

That is nothing new. They regularly do that for their conflicts. It is always "died in accidend" or complete silence. Though there have been cases in the past where influence and money got the family a proper hero burial and that is still something given out as bribe.

That is why there are huge networks of soldier family members in Russia mostly founded to find out what happened to soldiers who suddenly go silent. Of course this time those networks have problems with the new laws forbidding calling it a war or reporting in a wrong way about it.


So 10000 dead, 16000 more wounded. From a fighting force still near exclusively composed of the original 150000 assambled. That would indeed be crippling losses dangerously close to what is considered too much to stay active. No wonder they can't advance anymore.

 

[Agema]

I am speaking against the imposition of sanctions on Russia and for the earliest possible peace with the least bloodshed.

What you are advocating, therefore, is the capitulation of Ukraine and its full compliance with any and all demands the brutal and authoritarian Russian regime makes of it. That is, after all, the practical endpoint of what you want, so you should just say so.

The fact you won't is maybe a lot of why of people have problems with what you say: it's de facto support for Russia invading its neighbours.

 

[Agema]

So 10000 dead, 16000 more wounded. From a fighting force still near exclusively composed of the original 150000 assambled. That would indeed be crippling losses dangerously close to what is considered too much to stay active. No wonder they can't advance anymore.

Especially if we assume only approximately half to two thirds of a military force are frontline troops (the rest logistics, artillery, command etc.) and they have taken the lion's share of the casualties. On top, of course, with being low morale and discipline military in the first place.

Russia is aggressively recruiting Syrians, even directly from Assad's own army. A search for foreign mercenaries suggests it may be concerned about how many more casualties it can tolerate without political repercussions. The Kremlin might control the media, but missing, dead and injured relatives are noticed and word of mouth gets around.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

That's how democracy works. If people want to vote for a party like that, it's their choice. They have to then carry the consequences.

No, then the people who *didn't* vote for that party carry the consequences. Violence, murder, and worse, historically.

 

[Generals]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this indicate the Russian military and government are concealing soldiers' deaths from their families?

So these soldiers were lied to by their own commanders, who told them they were massing for drills. Then ordered to invade. Then their families are lied to about their status after they've died.

Christ, you can see why morale is so low and surrenders so common.

Well, Putin did promise high compensations for the families of fallen soldiers... Can't claim compensations if said fallen soldiers haven't officially fallen (on the front line).