Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[thebobmaster]

Not to mention you can't have the gay person doing anything unfavorable. Like there is a big complaint that trans people are often villains to a degree in movies and games.

Catherine Full Bodied got ratio'ed by trans people on twitter because the trans character "tricks" the main character into sleeping with them in the game. Thus making it a comedic thing at the expense of the trans character because they had to exist as a villian to trick the main character. This happens in 40-year-old-virgin as well as many other comedy films in which a character has an unexpected encounter with a trans person and it's played off as a, "Hahaha surprised that girl has a dick" joke.

The question for the representation crowd, is could there be a truly dispicable villain in a movie or game that was LBGT and it be okay? Would that be acceptable inclusive to make the character something people love to hate. Or would it be blasted as an excuse to show violence against a LBGT person?

For all the talk about representation, and inclusion, there are some aspects of that representation that the community doesn't want to have any part in.

You can twist anything into a negative, and the internet is well verse on this, so how far should media take the inclusion and representation before the communtiy would back off on it?

As an LGBT myself, here's how I feel about it. I have no issue with villains being gay or trans, no matter how despicable that villain is. The problem is when being LGBT is used as evidence that that character is evil. In other words, "I'm a villain, and also gay"? Fine. "I'm gay, and therefore a villain"? Much less so.

For the examples you listed, I do have a problem with them, because tricking someone into sleeping with you under false pretenses is not funny, and the comedy trope of "surprise, she has a dick" is just not funny, to me. It's one of the reasons I have issues re-watching Ace Ventura, despite finding 95% of the movie quite funny.

 

[Agema]

The question for the representation crowd, is could there be a truly dispicable villain in a movie or game that was LBGT and it be okay?

Basically, yes. Although with complications.

Many works of art have maybe on or two gay people (certainly as major characters), because in the greater scheme of things, homosexuality is relatively uncommon. Therefore, if you have a gay villain, that is potentially the only major gay character. That's not a problem, in isolation, as gay people can be villains. However, if lots of works of art have gay villains, that might be a little bit more of a problem and suggest a wider societal bias against homosexuality. In particular in many cases in the old days, it was clear that homosexuality was part of a character's evilness, not incidental to their evilness.

If you then take trans which is even rarer than homosexuality, media representation is consequently extraordinarily low. Most media don't have a trans character in any form, never mind a major character, so a trans villain potentially sticks out like a sore thumb. Doubly given how few heroes are trans: it's easy to have a gay protagonist these days, with many games set up to do it. If media will not support explicitly trans heroes, there's arguably going to be some frustration with an explicitly trans villain.

 

[CriticalGaming]

For the examples you listed, I do have a problem with them, because tricking someone into sleeping with you under false pretenses is not funny, and the comedy trope of "surprise, she has a dick" is just not funny, to me. It's one of the reasons I have issues re-watching Ace Ventura, despite finding 95% of the movie quite funny.

But based on your own examples. Enhorn is not a villian because she has a dick. She's a villian because she's a jealous ***** who wanted to ruin the Dolphins and kill Marino. The trans fact only come as a joke at the end and kind of serve as a comeupance for her as punishment for what she's done.

So you see how that can be hard for people to try and encorporate. Enhorn is literally a perfect example of what you said you were fine with, but because of a gag at the end of the film it ruins it. It's a gag in a comedy dispite everything about the film not really doing anything anti-trans at all.

 

[CriticalGaming]

If you then take trans which is even rarer than homosexuality, media representation is consequently extraordinarily low. Most media don't have a trans character in any form, never mind a major character, so a trans villain potentially sticks out like a sore thumb. Doubly given how few heroes are trans: it's easy to have a gay protagonist these days, with many games set up to do it. If media will not support explicitly trans heroes, there's arguably going to be some frustration with an explicitly trans villain.

Sure, and if I'm honest i think it is hard to do it right. Because by making a trans-hero you are glorifying trans which im not so sure is a good thing. On the flip side by making a trans villian you make trans evil and that's also not good. Not to mention the complexity of making a good trans character who's a good character in general who also happens to be trans.

It's almost like the LBGT-ness of a character has to be passive agressive, where it's there, but not really mentioned or utlized much in a way that the vast majority of the crowd can ignore it. But in so doing, what's the point of making the character LBGT in the first place.

I feel like whatever angle you approach it, there are bad things about it. Or things that just don't work without stereotypical mentions or plot devices.

 

[thebobmaster]

But based on your own examples. Enhorn is not a villian because she has a dick. She's a villian because she's a jealous ***** who wanted to ruin the Dolphins and kill Marino. The trans fact only come as a joke at the end and kind of serve as a comeupance for her as punishment for what she's done.

So you see how that can be hard for people to try and encorporate. Enhorn is literally a perfect example of what you said you were fine with, but because of a gag at the end of the film it ruins it. It's a gag in a comedy dispite everything about the film not really doing anything anti-trans at all.

Correct. I have nothing against Einhorn as a villain. What I have a problem with was them playing Ace Ventura's reaction to finding out Einhorn was trans for comedy, as well as having the scene at the end where it's implied she slept with basically everyone in the room, which also plays into the whole "LGBT crowd is promiscuous" trope, although that isn't one that I have nearly as much of a problem with.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Because by making a trans-hero you are glorifying trans which im not so sure is a good thing.

Why? Why does this not apply to any other group that can be heroes?

 

[CriticalGaming]

What I have a problem with was them playing Ace Ventura's reaction to finding out Einhorn was trans for comedy,

I'm curious what reaction would you have if you found out you made out with someone who you thought was your sexual preference only to find out you made out with the opposite? Sure it's hyped up for comedy, but if I found out a women I met and made out with was actually a man, I'd be really fucking upset tbh. It's like raping my face.

the scene at the end where it's implied she slept with basically everyone in the room, which also plays into the whole "LGBT crowd is promiscuous" trope

I don't know if that really applies because it's more implied that she used sex to manipulate her way to her top position in the department. Ace even explains this as such. Then of course everyone spits for the comedic effect.

But the fact that you mention trope is revealing because it implies that tropes are bad and therefore cannot be used. But Tropes become tropes because of how effective they are. Sometimes they become a bit derivative sure, but that isn't really the fault of the trope and it's more the fault of the audience for responding to the trope so well. And it also suggests that everything can be twisted into a negative given the right mindset for it. And if that's the community mindset, then it makes a hard case for why anyone should bother trying to please that mindset.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Why? Why does this not apply to any other group that can be heroes?

Because being trans is....let me find a word that isn't triggering....Let's go with Exceptional. If you are already exceptional, it makes you harder to relate to as a protagonist unless there are some other factors that bring you down right. Spider-man is exceptional, but his everyday life brings him down to earth and makes him relatable.

Trans is not relatable because it's fucking less than 1% of people. So then you would have to do something else to try and make the character appeal to the masses. And how would you do that without diminishing the trans-ness of the character while at the same time not offending the audience you are trying to cater too. Because if they were to make a Trans main character they would clearly be marketing towards a very specific audience and that audience is not big enough to justify any real budget.

So it's not a good idea because I don't see any direction you could take it without pissing people off.

 

[Agema]

Sure, and if I'm honest i think it is hard to do it right. Because by making a trans-hero you are glorifying trans...

Are you? Why? Can't you have a warrior hero bash people over the head and save peasants heroically, which has nothing to do with whether they are trans?

...which im not so sure is a good thing.

And connected with the above, I struggle to see what the harm is in showing that trans people can be happy / sad / brave / cowardly / honest / dishonest etc. There's a long distance from acknowledging trans people do and think stuff with encouraging everyone to become trans.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Are you? Why? Can't you have a warrior hero bash people over the head and save peasants heroically, which has nothing to do with whether they are trans?

Either way it glorifies the character. Being a hero is aspirational and thus glorifying the hyper humanity of that character. The reasoning behind the statement i just posted in another response.

 

[thebobmaster]

I'm curious what reaction would you have if you found out you made out with someone who you thought was your sexual preference only to find out you made out with the opposite? Sure it's hyped up for comedy, but if I found out a women I met and made out with was actually a man, I'd be really fucking upset tbh. It's like raping my face.



I don't know if that really applies because it's more implied that she used sex to manipulate her way to her top position in the department. Ace even explains this as such. Then of course everyone spits for the comedic effect.

But the fact that you mention trope is revealing because it implies that tropes are bad and therefore cannot be used. But Tropes become tropes because of how effective they are. Sometimes they become a bit derivative sure, but that isn't really the fault of the trope and it's more the fault of the audience for responding to the trope so well. And it also suggests that everything can be twisted into a negative given the right mindset for it. And if that's the community mindset, then it makes a hard case for why anyone should bother trying to please that mindset.

Convenient that you cut off where I said that I didn't have an issue with the trope to say that I was saying it being a trope was bad. I used trope as a way to say that it is something that is used somewhat regularly, not with any judgment. There are tropes that can be more easily used well or poorly, but there are no tropes that are universally good or bad.

And would I be upset? YES. I don't have a problem with him being upset. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE SITUATION BEING PLAYED FOR LAUGHS. It's not funny. Transphobia isn't funny. Rape by deception isn't funny. Does that make it a bit more clear?

 

[Buyetyen]

Because being trans is....let me find a word that isn't triggering....Let's go with Exceptional. If you are already exceptional, it makes you harder to relate to as a protagonist unless there are some other factors that bring you down right. Spider-man is exceptional, but his everyday life brings him down to earth and makes him relatable.

Trans is not relatable because it's fucking less than 1% of people. So then you would have to do something else to try and make the character appeal to the masses. And how would you do that without diminishing the trans-ness of the character while at the same time not offending the audience you are trying to cater too. Because if they were to make a Trans main character they would clearly be marketing towards a very specific audience and that audience is not big enough to justify any real budget.

So it's not a good idea because I don't see any direction you could take it without pissing people off.

In volume 5 of The Sandman, A Game of You, one of the supporting cast is a trans woman. The character received both accolades and criticisms from the trans community and Neil Gaiman has handled them all with characteristic graciousness. In the upcoming Netflix adaptation, Neil has said he's taken the criticisms on board and wants to portray the character in the most authentic way he and the cast and crew can.

I personally thought Wanda was a great character, but my opinion is just one of many and I'm cishet. What made her relatable to me was the identity negotiations. While I've never had the experience of gender dysphoria or questioning, I have had to deal with a lot of people trying to define my identity for me. We all go through such processes to some extent. Therein is a grain of truth that helped humanize the character. Struggling with identity is one of the main themes of A Game of You and Wanda's experience is one facet of that theme.

The point is that there is no such thing as a character that pleases everybody. The question is whether the criticisms you receive have merit. Criticisms like from dwarven do not. Criticisms from bobmaster do because they're coming from a place of good faith and sincerity.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE SITUATION BEING PLAYED FOR LAUGHS. It's not funny. Transphobia isn't funny. Rape by deception isn't funny. Does that make it a bit more clear?

Yeah that's fair. Though expected of comedy films. The nature of comedy usually is to hyperexaggerate and that's pretty clear from the opening of the film where Ace is kicking a Ups box down the street and bashing it around. WE've all gotten broken packages and mush think that's how delivery guys treat packages, but it's obviously not quite that bad.

I cansee where your problem is though for sure. It raises another question though. Since you said you were trans, I would like to ask you this. How would you have written Ace's reaction? Obviously there needs to be some reaction, so what would you change? IMO I might have cut out the crying shower scene and the plunger to the face, but would have left him chewing entire packs of gum. What would you have done?

 

[CriticalGaming]

In volume 5 of The Sandman, A Game of You, one of the supporting cast is a trans woman. The character received both accolades and criticisms from the trans community and Neil Gaiman has handled them all with characteristic graciousness. In the upcoming Netflix adaptation, Neil has said he's taken the criticisms on board and wants to portray the character in the most authentic way he and the cast and crew can.

I personally thought Wanda was a great character, but my opinion is just one of many and I'm cishet. What made her relatable to me was the identity negotiations. While I've never had the experience of gender dysphoria or questioning, I have had to deal with a lot of people trying to define my identity for me. We all go through such processes to some extent. Therein is a grain of truth that helped humanize the character. Struggling with identity is one of the main themes of A Game of You and Wanda's experience is one facet of that theme.

The point is that there is no such thing as a character that pleases everybody. The question is whether the criticisms you receive have merit. Criticisms like from dwarven do not. Criticisms from bobmaster do because they're coming from a place of good faith and sincerity.

i mean that's great. There are trans characters I've liked as well. I like Lavern Cox's character in Orange is the New Black. And I liked her in that Kate Beckensale movie Jolt.

However my points were about main characters, not supporting characters right? Supporting characters are easy because they don't have to hold the spotlight for very long and are merely support.

It's a whole other ballgame when that character has to drive the whole story.

And yeah shit is never going to please everybody, I think where it gets annoying for me is when people act like it's the worst thing in the world. There are plenty of characters I don't like, but i've never felt the need to shred the companies on twitter.

Maybe it's just because I'm old and I don't see the need to complain about nonsense for the sake of internet points. It just feels redundant to be I guess.

 

[thebobmaster]

I'm not exactly trans, myself. I'm pan, and while I haven't quite figured out my gender identity, I'm leaning towards demiguy (to sum up, my pronouns would be along the lines of he/them, as I don't feel female at all, but I also don't feel entirely male).

As for how I would have had him react,. even the shower was fine, I just wouldn't have made it a comic scene. I would have played his reaction seriously, showing some realistic anger and disturbance.

To be clear, again, I have no problem with most of Ace Ventura. It's one of Jim Carrey's funniest movies. It's just that one particular plot point being played for laughs is a bit uncomfortable to me. I feel the same way watching Revenge of the Nerds, which has a blatant rape by deception played for laughs.

 

[Buyetyen]

However my points were about main characters, not supporting characters right? Supporting characters are easy because they don't have to hold the spotlight for very long and are merely support.

It's a whole other ballgame when that character has to drive the whole story.

That's why it's important to remember that character does not come from what a person is, but how they feel about it. That['s what makes characters relatable.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Wait, are we really doing "why aren't you happy about constantly being portrayed as villainous sex pests?"

 

[CriticalGaming]

Wait, are we really doing "why aren't you happy about constantly being portrayed as villainous sex pests?"

Not at all, where are you getting that?

The general question was could there be a movie or game that featured "The First Transgender Villian" and have it be acceptable. Because generally negatives towards LBGT characters are not fair game at the moment.

But at the same time we want more representation so that means the community must be open to all roles in order to best seat that representation right?

Most villains aren't sexual deviants so that should be the easy part. But would the community be okay with murderers or terrorists? that's all.

 

[Agema]

Either way it glorifies the character. Being a hero is aspirational and thus glorifying the hyper humanity of that character. The reasoning behind the statement i just posted in another response.

I'm sorry, I just don't get your line of reasoning at all.

Jack Reacher is popular to millions, but he's six and half feet tall, built like a tank, highly intelligent, and wanders the USA like a hobo with no official records. Who is like that? Even excluding the hobo bit, potentially fewer people than are trans. Can't he be a sleuthing death machine without the height and massive musculature? Why doesn't that exceptional nature of him detract from what he does?

The hero of Lord of The Rings is a hobbit. How many hobbits have you seen around town? How do we empathise with this character who is already exceptional by the nature of his hobbit-ness, indeed, not even a human at all?

So, you cite Spiderman as a character made normal by his otherwise plain-clothes Peter Parker life. So why is any different for trans people? They have families too. Jobs. Romance. Ordinary hopes, emotions and aspirations. What makes this possible for Spiderman but not a transperson, such that the minute a transperson does a balletic backflip and shoots two bad guys mid-somersault, suddenly it's "Nope, sorry, you've lost me I'm out" whilst spiderman ejaculates webbing from his wrists without a raised eyebrow?

I repeat, I just don't get it because it makes no sense to me at all.

 

[thebobmaster]

I'm sorry, I just don't get your line of reasoning at all.

Jack Reacher is popular to millions, but he's six and half feet tall, built like a tank, highly intelligent, and wanders the USA like a hobo with no official records. Who is like that? Even excluding the hobo bit, potentially fewer people than are trans. Can't he be a sleuthing death machine without the height and massive musculature? Why doesn't that exceptional nature of him detract from what he does?

Yes, he can. It's called the movie version, where he was played by Tom Cruise.