Funny Events of the "Woke" world

Dwarvenhobble

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So basically the UK trial is as good as void in terms of what should be considered standings.

I don't care enough to ruin my YouTube recommendations.
Well I can but present reality to you.


Not the point of the trial.
Also my bad should have said Not enough evidence to prove Depp was the abuser.

Also part of the trial being defamation is based on the idea of truth as determined by a reasonable person of sound mind.

Is it the truth? We don't know.
Is it what is determined to be what a reasonable person should believe? Yes.

We don't know everything in the world but the reasonable assumptions people believe and make regularly are how the world keeps going to an extent.


Even if this were not completely missing the point. Do you feel that speculating about whether Amber Heard is a psychopath or a narcissist is helping to combat mental health stigma?
Technically she'd be more sociopath the two are often brought up and have different meanings etc but I use it as Psycopath = doesn't care about peoples feelings or understand others feelings very well. Sociopath = understands peoples feelings and works to manipulate them while only caring for people as a means to an end really.

In terms of combating stigma, well it can be helpful to put a name to a series of trait and be able to identify something so people can then know it's an issue and seek help for it.


Am I supposed to believe you care?
Am I supposed to care that you don't believe me when I know the truth and know the precedent already set?


No.

Most male victims of domestic violence don't have armies of fans who will instantly believe them because they're famous and people like their public persona.

Very few of the people speculating about this case actually care about male victims of abuse. Most of them just care about Johnny Depp. At best, some them care about punishing women (and only women) who perpetrate abuse because it vindicates their belief that women are inherently evil and untrustworthy. I believe that's the camp you fall into.
You know you'd don't have to prove what I just said about precedent to be right?


Depp may be high profile and well liked but you know the saying, "The bigger they are the harder they fall". Some people really did try to proverbially bury him. He was a lightening rod certain causes chose to target as a way to further their cause and show no-one was untouchable and or beyond their reach.
 

MrCalavera

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So i haven't really been paying attention to this case, but couldn't escape the social media fallout, since it's gained such notoriety there.

And someone described this like "OJ's trial but for redditors".
I think it's funny. Future will tell if it's apt.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Wait, are people seriously upset that because Amber Heard lost that women won't be able to come forward for being abused? You do all realize that like 90+% of people couldn't care less about that and just see it as singular event in which Amber was wrong? Funny thing is that my female friends are way way more into this whole thing (Team Johnny all the way btw) than any of my male friends who really don't care about the whole thing. Nobody is gonna hate on Jennifer Smith that accuses some guy of being abusive because of Amber Heard. Sure, you'll have the 1% left-wing fighting the 1% right-wing on Twitter (or whatever social media garbage site) over the bullshit, but that's gonna be it. People that think Twitter is the real world needs some kind of therapy.
 

Silvanus

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Oddly they did. You're just arguing semantics because they didn't use the specific words. Yet hey definitely didn't use the specific words to support your claim about what they said lol
"Semantics" lol. It's not "semantics" if you claim an article says something and the article literally doesn't say it in any way whatsoever. You're just lying.
 

Terminal Blue

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So basically the UK trial is as good as void in terms of what should be considered standings.
So what?

Also my bad should have said Not enough evidence to prove Depp was the abuser.
It means there was enough evidence to prove that Heard was guilty of defamation. It means nothing else. It has absolutely no bearing on who "the abuser" was or even if abuse took place at all.

Technically she'd be more sociopath the two are often brought up and have different meanings etc but I use it as Psycopath = doesn't care about peoples feelings or understand others feelings very well. Sociopath = understands peoples feelings and works to manipulate them while only caring for people as a means to an end really.
Psychopath and sociopath are archaic terms for antisocial personality disorder.

ASPD is one of the most misunderstood and stigmatized conditions a person can be diagnosed with. It is partly genetic, but typically arises in cases of child abuse or neglect or unstable and violent family environments. It is far more commonly diagnosed in men than in women. Contrary to popular opinion, people with ASPD can be entirely capable of caring for other people's feelings, or even loving people, but they usually experience these emotions less frequently and may express them in atypical ways.

People with ASPD are not magically evil. As mentioned, they are usually victims of some form of abuse or neglect in childhood. They struggle to find success or happiness because they lack basic interpersonal skills which most people develop, and because their impulsivity and difficulty understanding consequences often results in them ending up in prison or otherwise doing things which harm their quality of life in the long term. Many of them will struggle with addiction. They are far more likely to kill themselves than they are to kill another person. Even if they are diagnosed, they will face incredible stigma and misconceptions about their interior lives and mental state, and will need years of treatment to see any improvement, if they improve at all.

You cannot talk about mental health stigma on one hand, and on the other hand try and diagnose people you don't like as "psychopaths" to justify not liking them.

In terms of combating stigma, well it can be helpful to put a name to a series of trait and be able to identify something so people can then know it's an issue and seek help for it.
It is not helpful when your example clearly doesn't have the medical condition you are claiming they have, and when you can't even name the condition correctly.

Depp may be high profile and well liked but you know the saying, "The bigger they are the harder they fall". Some people really did try to proverbially bury him. He was a lightening rod certain causes chose to target as a way to further their cause and show no-one was untouchable and or beyond their reach.
What?

If he'd lost this case, what do you think would have happened?

The answer is absolutely fucking nothing. He would have had to pay a few million, which is nothing to him. But noone would have cared, just like noone cared when he lost the lawsuit against the Sun, and the judge ruled that all but two alleged instances of violence by him against Heard had been proven to a civil standard.

If you wonder why some people are still siding with Amber Heard, it's not because they need to bring Depp down to prove how influential they are, it's because they know very well that it doesn't actually matter whether or not she is guilty of defamation, or whether any of the allegations she has made are actually true or false. She would be getting the same treatment regardless.

You know why I know this, because the same thing is happening to Evan Rachel Wood, former girlfriend of Johnny Depp's BFF Marilyn Manson.

The fact that the same people pointing to Amber Heard's relationship history as proof that she is a bad conniving abuser have also decided that Marilyn Manson, who met Wood when she was an underage girl, whose relationship history is basically just a string of abuse allegations, who was bragging about sexually assaulting fans in his autobiography back in the 90s and who talked openly and unashamedly in interview about wanting to smash Wood's head open with a sledgehammer after she broke up with him is somehow being framed because he's friends with Johnny Depp just shows how pathetically little reality actually matters.
 
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thebobmaster

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You are literally the only person I've heard saying that they know people who are siding with Marilyn Manson in that case. I'm on several music-based Discords, and pretty much all of them have disowned Marilyn Manson, and refuse to even talk about him in any capacity. As for the consequences he's suffered outside of that...





You almost couldn't have picked a worse example.

Also...

If he'd lost this case, what do you think would have happened?

The answer is absolutely fucking nothing. He would have had to pay a few million, which is nothing to him. But noone would have cared, just like noone cared when he lost the lawsuit against the Sun, and the judge ruled that all but two alleged instances of violence by him against Heard had been proven to a civil standard.
I wanted to highlight this bit. No one cared when he lost the lawsuit against the Sun? That was the entire basis of his lawsuit against Amber Heard. That lost lawsuit cost him the two biggest roles he had going for him at the time, on top of the hit to his reputation. As for his fanbase...let's just say the general consensus (and I'm not even sure if I disagree with this) seems to be that it was probably a mutually ugly relationship with abuse on both sides, and no one being the "good guy". At least, from the groups I see. It's possibly that the people you are around believe differently.

Of course, a lot of the people that I am around online just wanted people to shut the hell up about the trial, but that's a different story.
 

Agema

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You are literally the only person I've heard saying that they know people who are siding with Marilyn Manson in that case. I'm on several music-based Discords, and pretty much all of them have disowned Marilyn Manson, and refuse to even talk about him in any capacity. As for the consequences he's suffered outside of that...
What makes me quite queasy about Manson - as with many other similar cases - is that it is almost certain all this was known (or should have been known) by many of his associates and business partners years ago.

I fear an awful lot of them dropped him because his misdeeds became too publicised to ignore, not because they'd just found out.
 

Terminal Blue

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You are literally the only person I've heard saying that they know people who are siding with Marilyn Manson in that case. I'm on several music-based Discords, and pretty much all of them have disowned Marilyn Manson, and refuse to even talk about him in any capacity.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/MarilynMansonIsInnocent?src=hashtag_click

What makes me quite queasy about Manson - as with many other similar cases - is that it is almost certain all this was known (or should have been known) by many of his associates and business partners years ago.
Again, it's never something that's really been hidden.

Regrettably and to my great shame, I was enough of a Manson fan once that I have read his autobiography. As one contemporary reviewer described it, it is basically just a sequence of him fucking and degrading (very young) female fans in what we're supposed to believe is consensual kink (although several of the things described are openly non-consensual, and most of the others are dubious enough that it's not clear how consensual they are).

Even as a literal child, I had enough awareness to realise that Marilyn Manson was kind of a horrible person and the fact he made music I liked (well, one album I liked and a bunch of other stuff I tolerated) was incidental to who he actually was. However, goths as a rule are really fucking dumb so I'm not surprised some of them still haven't got there.
 
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thebobmaster

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I am sad that that hashtag exists, but luckily, it seems to be a very small number of people who actually use it. It seems the majority of people, at least, don't believe Manson is innocent. Still too many people do, though. And don't be so quick to judge goths. Most of them are smarter that you give them credit for, and pretty much every goth I've communicated with never liked Manson to begin with. The phrase "poser" and "scene co-opter" came up fairly often if I mentioned his name.
 

Thaluikhain

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Remember way back when when people were claiming that Manson was a menace and a bad influence, and then they got bored and stopped before it became really clear that he actually was?
 

Dreiko

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Remember way back when when people were claiming that Manson was a menace and a bad influence, and then they got bored and stopped before it became really clear that he actually was?
They had issue with the satanic themes in his music, his biblical treatment of women is a plus so once it came out that kinda evened the score.
 

Gergar12

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Whenever I mention elite overproduction the left, and center-left hate me, and people on the right agree with me, then agree with me based on the argument of ALL wokeness being bad as I have seen on many internet comment boards which is blatantly false, these same people would have argued against gay marriage, or the civil rights movement.

Between the trades like CDLs in trucking being automated, too many bullshit jobs(consultant for example), too many lawyers, MBAs, etc, the economy is a facade. And even if there were enough jobs for everyone not to be underemployed, that would mean too many bullshit jobs which means everything from small road-building needing a ton of environmental consultants when one or a few will do to a multi-family home building project being stopped by NIMBY lawyers.

In sum, there are too many educated, and skilled people, and not enough jobs to go around. And no an educated society is not great because if there are too many people with a degree and not enough jobs there is a thing called a counter-elite which is someone who is almost as educated and smart as an elite but didn't get the career they wanted. They will revolt, and cause civil stifle or even a war. Case in point Donald Trump's government officials like Steve Bannon who is smart, but wasn't given the power he wanted which is a good thing, but maybe we should have a better selection process for making it into the elite, counter, or otherwise.

Summary:

.

Full Article: Edit: actual article.

 

TheMysteriousGX

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Makes sense, though I figure it's root cause is the devaluation of low level work.

Not only monetarily (although definitely that), but also societally: look at how people treat ditch diggers, janitors, and fast food workers.

So, naturally, "elite" professions become the only ones people strive for, and everybody else becomes expendable. Like, truck driving used to be a solid, respectable middle class job and it's just *gutted* now, in pay, over regulation, and predatory business practices from the elites.

So everybody wants to be a manager, but not everybody gets to be a manager, and the people passed over are stuck in a job they think is for the lower caste.
 

tstorm823

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In sum, there are too many educated, and skilled people, and not enough jobs to go around.
The average "skilled" job requires less skill than the average "unskillied" job. This may not have been true before computers, but it's definitely true now.
 

Terminal Blue

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Between the trades like CDLs in trucking being automated, too many bullshit jobs(consultant for example), too many lawyers, MBAs, etc, the economy is a facade.
It doesn't seem to be.

US GDP per capita has been trending upwards for a really long time, It's declined in the past few years, probably because of the pandemic, but in general people in the US are more economically productive than at almost any point in history. The same is basically true in all developed countries.

There's nothing really wrong with the core idea of what you're saying. It's certainly true that in many cases there are more people with educational qualifications than there are jobs which require those qualifications. There are vastly more people with PhDs, for example, than there are research positions, which results in excessive competition and many people (myself included) leaving academia having essentially wasted a lot of time and money on a qualification they won't use. The problem is with your framing of the problem, because it's a problem of wealth disparity and globalization.

Back when only a small minority of people went into higher education, there were reliable and stable sources of employment for those who did not, particularly in industry. Industry in the developed world has declined, in no small part thanks to neoliberal conservatives who never saw the merit in keeping "non-competitive" industries functioning. It is generally much more profitable for industry to be located in developing countries with higher purchasing power, meaning lower wages and lower operating costs, and since more of the economy is now controlled by larger industrial conglomerates they can afford to move production to developing countries. At the same time, those companies probably don't want to move their head offices out of developed countries where they have access to a highly educated workforce and a better quality of life. The result has been the rise of service economies.

The problem is that there is much less need for a working class in service economies. Increasingly, there isn't even much need for a middle class. Much of the actual wealth is generated by the small number of wealthy investors and corporate elites who together control a large share of the global economy. Nearly 80% of all the wealth in the US is owned by millionaires and billionaires. The three wealthiest people in the US are, between them, richer than the 160 million people on the bottom half of the socioeconomic scale, and that ratio is continuously getting worse. If you're wondering why stable working class jobs are increasingly being replaced by machines or by an unstable gig economy managed by apps, that's the reason. The people on the bottom have stopped economically mattering, they have become surplus, and noone wants to end up there.

The solution is not for less people to go to university and for the majority of the population to just accept a future of serfdom to Elon Musk and his descendents, the solution is for more people to go to university and gain the kind of political education they need to vote and agitate for measures that will improve the situation. Because when people don't have that political education, they end up believing that the reason their lives suck is that they are being persecuted by a cabal of satanic paedophiles, or that immigrants are taking their jobs, or that cryptocurrency will let them become billionaires. It is very easy for the people who control most of the wealth to dupe stupid people, because they have access to the tools to do that. The solution is for people to become less stupid.

Civil unrest is not a bad thing. It is not a thing we have to avoid at any cost even if it means consigning future generations to an eternity of slavery. If the existing elites choose to live in impossible luxury while everyone else struggles to earn enough to live comfortably, then they have created the conditions of social instability, and if history is anything to go by they will pay the price eventually.
 
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Silvanus

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In sum, there are too many educated, and skilled people, and not enough jobs to go around. And no an educated society is not great because if there are too many people with a degree and not enough jobs there is a thing called a counter-elite which is someone who is almost as educated and smart as an elite but didn't get the career they wanted. They will revolt, and cause civil stifle or even a war. Case in point Donald Trump's government officials like Steve Bannon who is smart, but wasn't given the power he wanted which is a good thing, but maybe we should have a better selection process for making it into the elite, counter, or otherwise.
An educated society is good, and education should never be artificially suppressed for reasons of work. Education should be treated as a moral good in itself, not just in how it gets us more ways to pay fucking bills.

If educated/accredited people are unable to enter the fields they want to enter as a career, the solution is not to reduce education. The solution is to expand the fields to fulfil the demand (or offer bursary systems to allow those people to pursue research further, unrelated to work).
 
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Gergar12

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An educated society is good, and education should never be artificially suppressed for reasons of work. Education should be treated as a moral good in itself, not just in how it gets us more ways to pay fucking bills.

If educated/accredited people are unable to enter the fields they want to enter as a career, the solution is not to reduce education. The solution is to expand the fields to fulfil the demand (or offer bursary systems to allow those people to pursue research further, unrelated to work).
It doesn't seem to be.

US GDP per capita has been trending upwards for a really long time, It's declined in the past few years, probably because of the pandemic, but in general people in the US are more economically productive than at almost any point in history. The same is basically true in all developed countries.

There's nothing really wrong with the core idea of what you're saying. It's certainly true that in many cases there are more people with educational qualifications than there are jobs which require those qualifications. There are vastly more people with PhDs, for example, than there are research positions, which results in excessive competition and many people (myself included) leaving academia having essentially wasted a lot of time and money on a qualification they won't use. The problem is with your framing of the problem, because it's a problem of wealth disparity and globalization.

Back when only a small minority of people went into higher education, there were reliable and stable sources of employment for those who did not, particularly in industry. Industry in the developed world has declined, in no small part thanks to neoliberal conservatives who never saw the merit in keeping "non-competitive" industries functioning. It is generally much more profitable for industry to be located in developing countries with lower purchasing power, meaning lower wages and lower operating costs, and since more of the economy is now controlled by larger industrial conglomerates they can afford to move production to developing countries. At the same time, those companies probably don't want to move their head offices out of developed countries where they have access to a highly educated workforce and a better quality of life. The result has been the rise of service economies.

The problem is that there is much less need for a working class in service economies. Increasingly, there isn't even much need for a middle class. Much of the actual wealth is generated by the small number of wealthy investors and corporate elites who together control a large share of the global economy. Nearly 80% of all the wealth in the US is owned by millionaires and billionaires. The three wealthiest people in the US are, between them, richer than the 160 million people on the bottom half of the socioeconomic scale, and that ratio is continuously getting worse. If you're wondering why stable working class jobs are increasingly being replaced by machines or by an unstable gig economy managed by apps, that's the reason. The people on the bottom have stopped economically mattering, they have become surplus, and noone wants to end up there.

The solution is not for less people to go to university and for the majority of the population to just accept a future of serfdom to Elon Musk and his descendents, the solution is for more people to go to university and gain the kind of political education they need to vote and agitate for measures that will improve the situation. Because when people don't have that political education, they end up believing that the reason their lives suck is that they are being persecuted by a cabal of satanic paedophiles, or that immigrants are taking their jobs, or that cryptocurrency will let them become billionaires. It is very easy for the people who control most of the wealth to dupe stupid people, because they have access to the tools to do that. The solution is for people to become less stupid.

Civil unrest is not a bad thing. It is not a thing we have to avoid at any cost even if it means consigning future generations to an eternity of slavery. If the existing elites choose to live in impossible luxury while everyone else struggles to earn enough to live comfortably, then they have created the conditions of social instability, and if history is anything to go by they will pay the price eventually.
I would argue the problem isn't even jobs even if that's a symptom. The problem is power. If you for example get a Ph.D. in poli-sci, IR, or economics you will expect to be compensated for your position in accordance with your degree. You also expect to get more power from pursuing said education. What happens if you don't get that power or career you want in the civil service. There is a chance of a revolt, and you are armed with the information to revolt and pursue anti-democratic populism that could lead to autocracy or a dictatorship.

There are only so many departments of X in the US or the ministry of X in said the UK, but at least the UK has fewer guns. The US has too many guns. There is also the fact that even many accounting, weathermen, CDL(truck drivers), and even computer scientists could be automated, but universities keep pumping more educated people out. And right now the balance of power is squarely unequal with the right. The left isn't winning any civil war unless the military is on our side, and yet they have analogized the military with defense cuts. The right has the police, a likely majority of officers in the said military, the bikers, and more people with guns.

I may not like Elon Musk compared to the democrats or some republicans, but I don't want the people who replace him to get his AI technology, because they aren't going to be social demcorats, socialists, democratic socialists, even hard-left communists they will be fascists or alt-right.

I would argue democracy even in the US form is better than us all using AR-15s, and killing each other like in many mass shootings.
 

Silvanus

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I would argue the problem isn't even jobs even if that's a symptom. The problem is power. If you for example get a Ph.D. in poli-sci, IR, or economics you will expect to be compensated for your position in accordance with your degree. You also expect to get more power from pursuing said education. What happens if you don't get that power or career you want in the civil service. There is a chance of a revolt, and you are armed with the information to revolt and pursue anti-democratic populism that could lead to autocracy or a dictatorship.
If someone is pursuing further education for the purpose of attaining power, and places so much importance on their own specific idea of advancement that they would revolt and take over the country if they were unsuccessful, then I don't really think the problem is too much education. The problem is that that person is a sociopathic megalomaniac who direly needs therapy.

There are only so many departments of X in the US or the ministry of X in said the UK, but at least the UK has fewer guns. The US has too many guns. There is also the fact that even many accounting, weathermen, CDL(truck drivers), and even computer scientists could be automated, but universities keep pumping more educated people out. And right now the balance of power is squarely unequal with the right. The left isn't winning any civil war unless the military is on our side, and yet they have analogized the military with defense cuts. The right has the police, a likely majority of officers in the said military, the bikers, and more people with guns.
The... bikers...?

There's a lot to unpack here. You've clearly worked out a whole set of circumstances you imagine will lead to a mythical civil war, but it's just so entirely unrealistic.

Also: the purpose of funding the military isn't meant to be to ensure the military is on "our side" in some hypothetical civil war. You're describing a country being held hostage.
 

Terminal Blue

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I would argue the problem isn't even jobs even if that's a symptom. The problem is power. If you for example get a Ph.D. in poli-sci, IR, or economics you will expect to be compensated for your position in accordance with your degree.
The thing is, since we still nominally live in democratic countries, there aren't enough people with those qualifications to matter all that much politically. PhDs are still a very small minority in the population as a whole, they're just more common than they used to be and aren't all going to find employment in academia or research.

However, a lot of people, especially in the humanities and social sciences, aren't necessarily getting PhDs because they expect to be rewarded with wealth or power. They're doing it because they have the luxury of being able to do so, because they enjoy and value the experience of higher education and/or because they have some topic they're passionate about and want to research. The "power" associated with having a PhD was always mostly tied up in the ability to participate in the knowledge economy, not to get a job in government.

Any meaningful revolution requires a mass movement. It's not going to happen because a few very overeducated people end up in jobs they're a bit overqualified for. Revolutions happen when the great mass of undereducated and politically disengaged people on the bottom of society find themselves suffering, and start looking for explanations as to why. The problem is that those people can't always accurately diagnose what the problem is, and are easily duped or mislead by bad actors.

A lot of elite and educated people ended up buying into fascism and still do today, but mostly because they are bad actors who see themselves as the beneficiaries of the deception. For most of them, it won't turn out to be true, but by then it will be too late.

The left isn't winning any civil war unless the military is on our side, and yet they have analogized the military with defense cuts.
The idea of a civil war is, to put it bluntly, extremely silly.

The country isn't going to neatly divide itself down the middle, line up in firing lines like a 19th century battle and shoot each other, and if they do it will probably be because the far right has siezed control of a bunch of state legislatures and tries to secede so they can create some weird theocratic ethnostate, in which case most of the army probably won't side with them.

What you are far more likely to end up with is mass activism and civil unrest, riots, street fighting and, above all, populist political candidates. This is already happening in the US. Bernie Sanders is the fourth the most popular politician in the country by approval rating despite being a self-described democratic socialist. We had massive nationwide protests around police brutality. Conversely, the far right has become the mainstream in the Republican party. Donald Trump was president despite being affiliated with a bunch of fascists and far right crazies who previously wouldn't have had a chance in politics. Even Obama, despite being a mediocre war criminal, was elected on a populist campaign that emphasized the need for change. The democratic party may be a bunch of neoliberal dweebs, but they can see where the wind is blowing and they will be pulled to the left if they see the political merit in it.

An age of mass politics is not a bad thing. It has enormous dangers, but considering the existing "moderate" course of action will lead to the effective enslavement of most of humanity and catastrophic, permanent damage to the biosphere of the planet, we need mass politics more than ever, and the fact that more people than ever are educated to a high standard means that we have a unique opportunity to build an educated mass movement without the need for mediation by political elites.