Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade; states can ban abortion

TheMysteriousGX

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Context for the uneducated masses please?
Plessy vs Ferguson was the Supreme Court decision that allowed for racial segregation in the US as long as facilities for each race were equal in quality. It's also why USAians tend to scoff when somebody brings up a "separate but equal" argument for discrimination, as they clearly weren't. It was the law of the land for 60 years and hasn't actually been overturned, which should explain a lot.

Brown vs Board of Education said that racially segregated schools were inherently unequal and thus unconstitutional, which led to a cascading effect overriding "state's rights" to segregate their populations. (At least somewhat, in schools, terms and conditions apply. Probably a major reason why schools are still funded by local property taxes, allowing affluent schools to be better funded than schools in poor districts, and the inherent racial effects that follow)

There's a non-zero number of conservatives in power who want Brown overturned on a "state's rights" basis and for no other reason, they swear
 
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Silvanus

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That is precisely what just happened.

Agree with it or not, Roe was a shit precedent that relied on shaky reasoning -- as I pointed out, Norma McCorvey didn't even have standing, she perjured herself in the first place to claim standing, the case was moot before the petition for cert was even filed, the Court had to manufacture jurisdiction to even hear it, and its ratio was nebulous and uneasily established (something about which even Ruth Bader Ginsburg was vocally critical). It's a miracle Roe stood this long as it was, it was never going to be a permanent disposition for abortion access, and believing otherwise is peak liberal hubris.

Like I said, be careful what you wish for.
There was no exploration of the numerous other legal and constitutional foundations that could have provided a basis for the right to abortion. It was a "review" that went no further than simple reversion.

I'm also not really sure what you think I'm wishing for. I'm not wishing for legal realism; I'm recognising that it's already being utilised.

That was never part of my role in the discussion; I'm discussing methodology.
You were opining that the SCOTUS would feel honour-bound to respect rulings if they were legally sound, no? That they couldn't just manufacture a justification. Essentially, that their sense of duty outweighs their partisan loyalty.

Which... well.

 
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BrawlMan

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dreng3

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Good luck to her when it comes to outlawing FDA approved medication.

And if it is transported by mail, or from state to state, it is certainly something congress can legislate on.
 
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Eacaraxe

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There was no exploration of the numerous other legal and constitutional foundations that could have provided a basis for the right to abortion. It was a "review" that went no further than simple reversion.
Claims require evidence proportional to their strength to refute. Roe, being a shit case with shit ratio, required proportional ratio to overrule, which in this case was equally shit. Which is why it was incumbent upon Congress to codify abortion, which did not happen because both political parties used it as a fundraising football for fifty years.

And now it requires a Constitutional amendment. So, well done. Well done indeed.

You were opining that the SCOTUS would feel honour-bound to respect rulings if they were legally sound, no? That they couldn't just manufacture a justification. Essentially, that their sense of duty outweighs their partisan loyalty.
No, that's not my point. Never has been. My point is the grounds by which challenges can be brought to the court, the number of hoops a given jurist has to jump through, the likelihood of that opinion sticking, and the unintended ramifications of that opinion over time, depends on the strength of precedent in question and the lengths which need to be undertaken to overturn it.

Weak precedents are easily overturned. Strong precedents are not. Roe was a weak precedent, that was easily overturned by a decision which now sets a strong precedent. By contrast, as I originally said, Dred Scott was a precedent so strong it took two Constitutional amendments to overturn.

This is why I said Griswold is likely to go before Obergefell. Obergefell is a strong enough precedent, it effectively limits the scope of cases that can even be justifiably brought before the Court; even in the presence of a good test case, cannot be reasonably overturned without endangering legal principles which form the foundation of 21st Century jurisprudence. There's already been attempts to bring test cases before the Court to overturn Obergefell, which were denied cert by the conservatives on the Court, lest we forget Kim Davis' failed appeal.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Claims require evidence proportional to their strength to refute. Roe, being a shit case with shit ratio, required proportional ratio to overrule, which in this case was equally shit. Which is why it was incumbent upon Congress to codify abortion, which did not happen because both political parties used it as a fundraising football for fifty years.

And now it requires a Constitutional amendment. So, well done. Well done indeed.


No, that's not my point. Never has been. My point is the grounds by which challenges can be brought to the court, the number of hoops a given jurist has to jump through, the likelihood of that opinion sticking, and the unintended ramifications of that opinion over time, depends on the strength of precedent in question and the lengths which need to be undertaken to overturn it.

Weak precedents are easily overturned. Strong precedents are not. Roe was a weak precedent, that was easily overturned by a decision which now sets a strong precedent. By contrast, as I originally said, Dred Scott was a precedent so strong it took two Constitutional amendments to overturn.

This is why I said Griswold is likely to go before Obergefell. Obergefell is a strong enough precedent, it effectively limits the scope of cases that can even be justifiably brought before the Court; even in the presence of a good test case, cannot be reasonably overturned without endangering legal principles which form the foundation of 21st Century jurisprudence. There's already been attempts to bring test cases before the Court to overturn Obergefell, which were denied cert by the conservatives on the Court, lest we forget Kim Davis' failed appeal.
In a *just* world run by *rules*, sure.

We have a Supreme Court that's willing to just fucking lie though

 
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Silvanus

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Claims require evidence proportional to their strength to refute. Roe, being a shit case with shit ratio, required proportional ratio to overrule, which in this case was equally shit. Which is why it was incumbent upon Congress to codify abortion, which did not happen because both political parties used it as a fundraising football for fifty years.
And it was their personal decision to utilise solely arguments of refutation, and entirely omit alternative arguments of support.


No, that's not my point. Never has been. My point is the grounds by which challenges can be brought to the court, the number of hoops a given jurist has to jump through, the likelihood of that opinion sticking, and the unintended ramifications of that opinion over time, depends on the strength of precedent in question and the lengths which need to be undertaken to overturn it.

Weak precedents are easily overturned. Strong precedents are not. Roe was a weak precedent, that was easily overturned by a decision which now sets a strong precedent. By contrast, as I originally said, Dred Scott was a precedent so strong it took two Constitutional amendments to overturn.
Dude, Dred Scott did not require Constitutional amendment to overturn because it was so legally sound. It's pretty much universally derided not only on moral grounds but on legal grounds, as well, as being a pile of horseshit.
 

Buyetyen

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I'm confused as to what the image is implying.
Because of the Establishment Clause, the state is not allowed to play favorites when it comes to religion. A coach or athletes can pray quietly to themselves, but when you have the coach leading the players in prayer out on the field, that runs afoul of the first amendment.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Because of the Establishment Clause, the state is not allowed to play favorites when it comes to religion. A coach or athletes can pray quietly to themselves, but when you have the coach leading the players in prayer out on the field, that runs afoul of the first amendment.
But... A sport coach isn't part of the state? I feel like I'm still missing something.
 

Asita

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I'm confused as to what the image is implying.
That's from the case of Kennedy v. Bremerton School District, in which Alito (just today) wrote a concurring opinion that Kennedy - pictured above leading the team in prayer - was engaged in a private activity (albeit while at work) and engaged in it in purely a private capacity and therefore any requests by the school to moderate the behavior (while attempting to offer reasonable alternatives) - much less disciplining him for failure to abide by said requests constituted a violation of the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment.

Sotomayer wrote a dissenting opinion that her colleagues were misconstruing the facts by characterizing Kennedy's actions as quiet and private prayer rather than a repeated public demonstrative event at the 50-yard line in which he invited student athletes and others to join in as he led the prayer in a way that led the school to fear that Kennedy's conduct created the impression that the school was endorsing a particular religion in violation of the Establishment Clause (Bremerton being a public school).

The case itself had further shown that in the time he had been doing this before it came to the board's attention, it had gone from him simply praying on the 50-yard line immediately after shaking hands with the other team to him explicitly inviting the other coach and players to join him and added post-game talks in which Kennedy would hold players' helmets aloft (see again the image) and deliver religious speeches that he characterized as prayers while the players kneeled around him. Students would later attest to feeling socially pressured to join in so as not to be separated from the rest of the team.

When asked to stop, he briefly prayed in private before ultimately lawyering up and claiming that he was "motivated by his sincerely held religious beliefs to pray after every game", characterized his kneeling in the field as his private time, and asked that the District "issue a clarification that the prayer is Kennedy's private speech" and that the District had no right to interfere with him, and he absolutely would resume the practice the very next day for the Homecoming game...at which point he immediately made multiple media appearances to advertise that fact and cast it as a fight for religious freedom. The resulting circus resulted in the school getting numerous threats, and the usual suspects storming the field after that game to join Kennedy in his prayer. When the school responded that this was unacceptable and that they'd be happy to accommodate his faith privately in a way that didn't interfere with his duties or create the impression of religious favoritism, his attorneys told the media that only option acceptable to their client was demonstrative prayer on the 50-yard line immediately after the game.

And after a few more games continuing this, he was put on paid administrative leave, and later was not rehired during his annual review due to his failure to follow district policy, lack of cooperation with the administration to find a reasonable accommodation that wouldn't put the District in a bad spot, and ultimately creating a dangerous environment for his fellow faculty and students (the head coach explicitly resigning out of fears that Kennedy's stoking public outrage to support his demonstrations would lead to him or his staff being shot or otherwise attacked). Kennedy responded by filing suit claiming that it was a violation of the Free Exercise clause, which the lower courts consistently ruled was a crock of hooey, noting specifically that not only had Kennedy abjectly rejected accommodation, but that he had further indicated that it was essential that his speech be delivered in the presence of students and spectators, which the courts held as performed in his capacity as a public employee (thereby conveying official sanction and thus violating the Establishment Clause).

Sotomayer called out the majority opinion as misrepresenting that as a private exercise of religion ("pray[ing] quietly while his students were otherwise occupied") when it was in fact a public display of what constituted ministry while still operating in his role as a representative of the School District. She even went so far as to characterize it as going "beyond merely misreading the record. The Court overrules Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U. S. 602 (1971), and calls into question decades of subsequent precedents that it deems 'offshoot' of that decision", and functionally replaces the Establishment Clause with a toothless version of the coercion analysis. In effect, she makes no secret of the fact that that the majority reads to her like a radical alteration to the Court's Religious Clauses Jurisprudence all while pretending that nothing has changed at all.

The Tweet follows up on that by basically accusing Alito of rank hypocrisy, as explained in the follow-up tweet: "On Friday, Alito could not find a right to privacy that had been in place for 50 years when it came to abortions, but on Monday writes a separate concurrence *just to say* that the separation of church and state can be whittled away based on a (false) claim of prayer privacy"
 
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evilneko

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Conservatives there managed to abuse this good idea and turning limiting the government's power into an Authoritarian regime. It's would be incredible if it weren't so Ayatollah

Now no one can rely on restricting governments power to be helpful and they can run rampant either way
That's the thing: our Republican comrades have not actually been about restricting government power since well before I was even born. One might say they started saying the quiet parts out loud in the 90s, and Trump shouted them with a megaphone. To think I once actually swallowed their propaganda (I confess to voting for Shrub) makes me cringe.

Given the current court, I think a first amendment challenge to an abortion ban would be unlikely to succeed. However, it would certainly result in some agonizing mental gymnastics recorded for posterity in the court's opinion.

Although at least, Judaism might be something they wouldn't scoff at along the way. Unlike say, the 3rd tenet of The Satanic Temple.
 

Dreiko

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I think these people are confused.

Nobody said a fetus had a soul, only that it is alive. You can be alive without a soul, you know, like how all animals besides humans are alive.


Hell in orthodox christianity (and as an outcrop of high rates of infant mortality during the bronze age) you don't even name babies until they're half a year old, which is when you baptize them and in that process they're supposed to get their soul, so it's not as if christian opposition to abortion is for soul-related-reasons.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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That's the thing: our Republican comrades have not actually been about restricting government power since well before I was even born. One might say they started saying the quiet parts out loud in the 90s, and Trump shouted them with a megaphone. To think I once actually swallowed their propaganda (I confess to voting for Shrub) makes me cringe.
The Republicans have some good ideas about government and rights. It's just that they don't actually act on any of those ideas, and instead act against them pretty much all the time while claiming they're propping them up.

Pro-small business...except that they're always taking donations from huge megacorps and allowing them to squash small businesses while giving them every tax-break in the world.

Pro-freedom of speech...except when canceling anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Pro-small government...except when using government power to limit individual freedom.

Pro-law and order...except when it comes to fascist rallies and blowing up abortion clinics.

Against the welfare state...except when giving free money to banks and billionaires.

It's pretty easy to see why someone would be pro-republican, unless they pay literally any attention to what the republican party actually does.
 
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Trunkage

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I think these people are confused.

Nobody said a fetus had a soul, only that it is alive. You can be alive without a soul, you know, like how all animals besides humans are alive.


Hell in orthodox christianity (and as an outcrop of high rates of infant mortality during the bronze age) you don't even name babies until they're half a year old, which is when you baptize them and in that process they're supposed to get their soul, so it's not as if christian opposition to abortion is for soul-related-reasons.
Yeah, I think dogs etc have souls