Thoughts on Ellie's redesign in TLoU: Part 1

[CriticalGaming]

That I have zero issues with; she looks as practical as this world allows. Even her behavior isn't obnoxious, it's just that it's another example of male writers being way too anxious to make a girl character that isn't into what the male audience is likely into. Naughty Dog has an issue with being too eager to make their characters likeable. Which at face value wouldn't seem like a problem at all, but it's important to write some disagreeable aspects to a character. I like Ellie, but she just kinda has that sense to her like she's tailor-made (for her age) to apeal to guys; someone who won't annoy the largely male demographic that plays this type of game.

Now granted, in the face of the horribly written character Ellie becomes in TLoU2, this is honestly a non issue for me now.

Yeah I guess. I thought Joel and Ellie were fantastic in Part 1 and that dynamic really worked well because it showed that people will bond if giving time no matter the world around them. It built that father daughter dynamic really well which is why the best parts of P2 were the flashback scenes.

When you think about it, Part 2 could have been an incredibly impactful game if the writers were less concerned with HERcules and breaking down everything Part 1 built and instead focused on making a second game that made sense and stayed true to the characters. Because we spent a lot of time with Ellie and Joel, we know them, and everyone knew that they wouldn't act the way they do in Part 2.

It wasn't even Joel's death but instead how it was handled, and rewriting the story would have been so fucking easy to tell a better story. That i think is what made everyone upset because we could all see the better story there and they didn't take it, opted to destroy what player's loved for no reason other than what feels like spite.

 

[BrawlMan]

When you think about it, Part 2 could have been an incredibly impactful game if the writers were less concerned with HERcules and breaking down everything Part 1 built and instead focused on making a second game that made sense and stayed true to the characters. Because we spent a lot of time with Ellie and Joel, we know them, and everyone knew that they wouldn't act the way they do in Part 2.

It wasn't even Joel's death but instead how it was handled, and rewriting the story would have been so fucking easy to tell a better story. That i think is what made everyone upset because we could all see the better story there and they didn't take it, opted to destroy what player's loved for no reason other than what feels like spite.

Niel being too drunk on the make everything "darker, edgier, grim & grittier!!!". Part 2 is a reminder of why we (most of us) left the seventh generation behind.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Niel being too drunk on the make everything "darker, edgier, grim & grittier!!!". Part 2 is a reminder of why we (most of us) left the seventh generation behind.

I dont think that's an excuse for his shit writing. You could have kept the same tone and made a non-shit story, but the dude has no talent for writing so.....PFFFFFT.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Yeah I guess. I thought Joel and Ellie were fantastic in Part 1 and that dynamic really worked well because it showed that people will bond if giving time no matter the world around them. It built that father daughter dynamic really well which is why the best parts of P2 were the flashback scenes.

When you think about it, Part 2 could have been an incredibly impactful game if the writers were less concerned with HERcules and breaking down everything Part 1 built and instead focused on making a second game that made sense and stayed true to the characters. Because we spent a lot of time with Ellie and Joel, we know them, and everyone knew that they wouldn't act the way they do in Part 2.

It wasn't even Joel's death but instead how it was handled, and rewriting the story would have been so fucking easy to tell a better story. That i think is what made everyone upset because we could all see the better story there and they didn't take it, opted to destroy what player's loved for no reason other than what feels like spite.

I don't know. I mean, I hate the story and characters in TLoU2, but seemingly for different reasons than most people do. The writing was kinda already on the wall with that first reveal trailer having Ellie out for blood, eventhough Ellie by the end of the first game would never under any circumstance want to leave a perfectly safe and comfortable town (unless maybe cure related). Not after everything she's been through in her life. Any attempt to get Ellie out of Jackson and back into the third-person stealth action would've been contrived. Remember; for the fourteen/fifteen years of her life Ellie's lived in squalor. Jackson is the first time she's living reasonably safe and has the luxery of exploring hobbies in her free time. She has friends and even romance, and is a valued member of this community. She's pretty much living in a paradise. And then she leaves all of that because someone she greatly cares for got killed, and drags her girlfriend along on what is very likely a suicide mission just to get revenge. This is where the game (narratively) utterly nose-dived for me, and where Ellie as a character got assassinated.

Naughty Dog wanted to make Ellie (as well as the other characters) very grounded and realistic, and not like the usual videogame character at all, but then has her doing the most typical videogame shit, like going on a months long trip just to kill someone.

Abby was inconsistently written, but atleast her character wasn't fed to the dogs like Ellie and Tommy's were for the sake of 'if you do bad things then bad things happen'. Ellie from TLoU1 would look at Ellie from TLoU2 and think her a pathetic, obnoxious shithead. Maybe that's supposed to be the "tragedy" of her character, but to me it's the tragedy of how they decided to write her.

Druckmann is a good writer, but the dude drank his own kool aid something fierce.

 

[BrawlMan]

I dont think that's an excuse for his shit writing

I'm not making an excuse for his bad writing, as he is just a bad writer in general. But doubling down on the go bigger or go home attitude definitely did not do anyone any favors. It's a problem that's plagues so much of the AAA industry. The only difference is that it's all in the name of "art!", and making a "real and serious story that is not found in other video games!". To become cinematic and legitimized by the public eye, and for people who hate or don't care video games to begin with.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I don't know. I mean, I hate the story and characters in TLoU2, but seemingly for different reasons than most people do. The writing was kinda already on the wall with that first reveal trailer having Ellie out for blood, eventhough Ellie by the end of the first game would never under any circumstance want to leave a perfectly safe and comfortable town (unless maybe cure related). Not after everything she's been through in her life. Any attempt to get Ellie out of Jackson and back into the third-person stealth action would've been contrived. Remember; for the fourteen/fifteen years of her life Ellie's lived in squalor. Jackson is the first time she's living reasonably safe and has the luxery of exploring hobbies in her free time. She has friends and even romance, and is a valued member of this community. She's pretty much living in a paradise. And then she leaves all of that because someone she greatly cares for got killed, and drags her girlfriend along on what is very likely a suicide mission just to get revenge. This is where the game (narratively) utterly nose-dived for me, and where Ellie as a character got assassinated.

Naughty Dog wanted to make Ellie (as well as the other characters) very grounded and realistic, and not like the usual videogame character at all, but then has her doing the most typical videogame shit, like going on a months long trip just to kill someone.

Abby was inconsistently written, but atleast her character wasn't fed to the dogs like Ellie and Tommy's were for the sake of 'if you do bad things then bad things happen'. Ellie from TLoU1 would look at Ellie from TLoU2 and think her a pathetic, obnoxious shithead. Maybe that's supposed to be the "tragedy" of her character, but to me it's the tragedy of how they decided to write her.

Druckmann is a good writer, but the dude drank his own kool aid something fierce.

Okay let me paint an alternate scenario for you and you can tell me if you would have liked my version of events over what we actually got in the game.

1. Game opens with the scene with Abby and her friends outside of Jackson. All of them are asking Abby if she's sure she wants to go through with this, etc etc. Determined she gears up and says goodbye to her friends but before she does Owen grabs her and whispers, "Remember, play it cool. Make friends. Bind your time until the moments right. Then get out." Abby nods and heads into Jackson.

2. Joel and Tommy are on patrol when suddenly they encounter a massive horde of infected, they fight off a few in the ambush but have to flee from the rest. As they are running through the abandoned outskirts of Jackson they hear a girl scream. Immediately they detour towards the scream, seeing Abby about to get tramples by infected as they push a gate on top of her. They save her and flee, finally finding peace in some store or some shit. Abby explains that she and her group were passing through but the snowstorm separated her. Joel and Tommy offer for her to come back to Jackson so her can recover and let the storm pass before heading out back to her group. When asked if the group will come back for her she says no they are part of WLF in Seattle and they have instructions to return to base even if they lose someone. So she'll have to make the journey herself.

3. Back in town, Abby is given shelter near the outskirts and just meets some people passing by. This is where other plot points can also happen but perhaps a bit more fleshed out. Ellie goes on patrol with Dina and/or Jesse, the sexual tension between her and Dina can still be built up. Meanwhile Abby offers to help out around the town for a little while to repay Joel and Tommy for the save. Actually going on patrol with Joel alone, not killing him either. While on these patrols we see Abby stashing supplies in the woods in case she's gotta escape quickly. Abby and Ellie even get together for perhaps some side missions. Ultimately Abby makes herself known as a friend around town, even liked, until it's time that she heads back to Seattle. Which is the night before the dance (where Ellie and Dina kiss). Joel and Ellie convince her to stay one more night for the dance, the kiss scene happens, Joel steps in against the bigot and Ellie snaps at him, mostly out of embarrassment. Joel leaves the party and Abby follows to comfort him.

4. Abby kills Joel while they're alone. Ellie feels bad about snapping at him and shrugs off Dina to go apologize to him, only to stumble upon Abby standing over Joel's body with a weapon of some sort. Ellie pulls a revolver and shoots at Abby but she escapes and flees into the woods, tracking down the supplies she hide and booking it out of town.

5. Then the revenge mission happens, and we can have all the Joel and Ellie flashbacks, and even have Abby's flashback where she finds her father murdered. Even taking control of Abby when she returns to Seattle only to find the WLF in the thick of an escalated battle with the Scars.

A lot of the real game we got can still happen, it just requires a better set up and no betrayal of established and loved characters.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

That I have zero issues with; she looks as practical as this world allows. Even her behavior isn't obnoxious, it's just that it's another example of male writers being way too anxious to make a girl character that isn't into what the male audience is likely into. Naughty Dog has an issue with being too eager to make their characters likeable. Which at face value wouldn't seem like a problem at all, but it's important to write some disagreeable aspects to a character. I like Ellie, but she just kinda has that sense to her like she's tailor-made (for her age) to apeal to guys; someone who won't annoy the largely male demographic that plays this type of game.

It could be a result of the narrative and setting though and wound up a “happy” coincidence. Besides, they certainly made up for it with Abby given the shitstorm her design caused.

 

[BrawlMan]

It could be a result of the narrative and setting though and wound up a “happy” coincidence. Besides, they certainly made up for it with Abby given the shitstorm her design caused.

I still find it crazy, but not surprising, those imbeciles didn't believe a muscular woman can exist (in a zombie apocalypse). I guess they decided to ignore all the muscular women in Street Fighter. Or did not know about the ones in Golden Axe. This next game I'm about to bring up is an obscure one, but even Undercover Cops has a playable female character that's partially muscular and takes place in a nuclear apocalypse. Her name is Rosa Felmond, by the way.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Okay let me paint an alternate scenario for you and you can tell me if you would have liked my version of events over what we actually got in the game.

1. Game opens with the scene with Abby and her friends outside of Jackson. All of them are asking Abby if she's sure she wants to go through with this, etc etc. Determined she gears up and says goodbye to her friends but before she does Owen grabs her and whispers, "Remember, play it cool. Make friends. Bind your time until the moments right. Then get out." Abby nods and heads into Jackson.

2. Joel and Tommy are on patrol when suddenly they encounter a massive horde of infected, they fight off a few in the ambush but have to flee from the rest. As they are running through the abandoned outskirts of Jackson they hear a girl scream. Immediately they detour towards the scream, seeing Abby about to get tramples by infected as they push a gate on top of her. They save her and flee, finally finding peace in some store or some shit. Abby explains that she and her group were passing through but the snowstorm separated her. Joel and Tommy offer for her to come back to Jackson so her can recover and let the storm pass before heading out back to her group. When asked if the group will come back for her she says no they are part of WLF in Seattle and they have instructions to return to base even if they lose someone. So she'll have to make the journey herself.

3. Back in town, Abby is given shelter near the outskirts and just meets some people passing by. This is where other plot points can also happen but perhaps a bit more fleshed out. Ellie goes on patrol with Dina and/or Jesse, the sexual tension between her and Dina can still be built up. Meanwhile Abby offers to help out around the town for a little while to repay Joel and Tommy for the save. Actually going on patrol with Joel alone, not killing him either. While on these patrols we see Abby stashing supplies in the woods in case she's gotta escape quickly. Abby and Ellie even get together for perhaps some side missions. Ultimately Abby makes herself known as a friend around town, even liked, until it's time that she heads back to Seattle. Which is the night before the dance (where Ellie and Dina kiss). Joel and Ellie convince her to stay one more night for the dance, the kiss scene happens, Joel steps in against the bigot and Ellie snaps at him, mostly out of embarrassment. Joel leaves the party and Abby follows to comfort him.

4. Abby kills Joel while they're alone. Ellie feels bad about snapping at him and shrugs off Dina to go apologize to him, only to stumble upon Abby standing over Joel's body with a weapon of some sort. Ellie pulls a revolver and shoots at Abby but she escapes and flees into the woods, tracking down the supplies she hide and booking it out of town.

5. Then the revenge mission happens, and we can have all the Joel and Ellie flashbacks, and even have Abby's flashback where she finds her father murdered. Even taking control of Abby when she returns to Seattle only to find the WLF in the thick of an escalated battle with the Scars.

A lot of the real game we got can still happen, it just requires a better set up and no betrayal of established and loved characters.

For me, the main theme of revenge is such an ill fit that it's kinda 'pick yer poison'.

If the story is to remain largely intact, I think introducing Abby at all at the start is likely a mistake. The true game begins when Ellie sets off on her mission to kill Abby and everyone else who was responsible, and the game seems to want the player to be fully on Ellie's side. So introducing and humanizing Abby at the start feels pointless. I'd say just have Ellie walk in on the murder and that be the first time the player sees Abby. It would require some fiddling around with the tutorial, but ey.

Secondly, don't have Ellie immediately start off out for blood and willing to travel nearly 900 miles through post-apocalyptic wasteland. Again, Ellie is supposed to be a normal, grounded human, and immediately turning her into Kratos feels horribly out of character as well as just silly. Have it start out with Ellie simply tracking down Tommy or someone else to a nearby city or town, and then step by step gradually having her pulled into a path of no return. Actually see a slow dark decline of her character, not the immediate petulant turn we have in the game now.

Have Abby actually react to having accomplished her revenge in either a positive or negative way. Just have something, because as it is now it might as well not have happened; no weight that maybe lifted off her shoulders, no feelings of guilt, no sense of triumph, no feeling of emptiness now that she finally killed Joel but still doesn't have her father back. Nothing. This has been an obsession for her for four years, and for us as the player it was a major (traumatic) event, and now that she finally got what she wanted it made zero impact on her character. Like, what the fuck?!

Have Abby's connection be to Marlene and not the dumb ass surgeon. We actually know Marlene, we're familiar with her, and even if we don't agree with her at all her death at Joel's hands was extremely cold blooded. The fact that Marlene doesn't get mentioned at all by any of the characters is baffling. If the surgeon IS gonna be her father and the one Abby seeks revenge for, have this guy be playable at the start of Abby's section. Similar to Sarah in the first game having the player control the character helps a lot in drumming up player connection, and as a result makes us empathize more to Abby's connection to her father (as we were playing him). Just knowing they are father and daughter won't make me care, certainly not when you're presenting it with a Roland Emmerich level of cringey schmultz.

There's far, far, FAR more I could mention... but I ain't gonna - This fucking game lives rent-free in my brain as it is.

 

[CriticalGaming]

So introducing and humanizing Abby at the start feels pointless.

Why? I would rather like the character first before I hate them because it makes the hatred stronger. If you are trying to get emotions from the audience I feel like that's the way to go about it, not the other way round.

I'd say just have Ellie walk in on the murder and that be the first time the player sees Abby.

Then the characters would have no reasonable knowledge of how to track Abby down though. If the player doesn't know, then they can't expect the characters to know either. And if they be like, "Oh we tracked her to Seattle." Then every player would be like, "How? How did you do that? Why track her all the way to Seattle only to come back and inform the group/player? Unless you mean to have it happen like the game where the stupid ass murder hobos kill Joel, but don't kill Ellie that walks in on them, and ALSO has to be stupid enough to tell Ellie where they are from before they leave.

Secondly, don't have Ellie immediately start off out for blood and willing to travel nearly 900 miles through post-apocalyptic wasteland. Again, Ellie is supposed to be a normal, grounded human, and immediately turning her into Kratos feels horribly out of character as well as just silly. Have it start out with Ellie simply tracking down Tommy or someone else to a nearby city or town, and then step by step gradually having her pulled into a path of no return. Actually see a slow dark decline of her character, not the immediate petulant turn we have in the game now.

In order for this to happen I feel like Abby's group would have to kill a lot more people that Ellie knows. Perhaps there could have been a story about the WLF trying to move in and take over Jackson but then you lose the personal touch of revenge.

No matter what, taking Ellie down this path has to be a betrayal to her character. However my idea above where Abby and Ellie become friends in a way would at least ADD to the need for revenge because not only does Abby betray the friendship, she also kills off the beloved father figure. So it's a double hit to push Ellie over the edge better imo.

Have Abby's connection be to Marlene and not the dumb ass surgeon. We actually know Marlene, we're familiar with her, and even if we don't agree with her at all her death at Joel's hands was extremely cold blooded.

This is because they wanted the Fatherhood Duality. Joel killed Abby's father so Abby kills Joel who is basically Ellie's father. Killing Marlene doesn't have the same impact especially if trying to drive a Ying/Yang type of thing.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Why? I would rather like the character first before I hate them because it makes the hatred stronger. If you are trying to get emotions from the audience I feel like that's the way to go about it, not the other way round.

If you want to really extend Abby's inclussion at the start maybe, sure. But in the game as is, it really isn't. We know very quickly she's got less than favourable intensions toward a man that is very likely Joel, so it's not like our trust in her gets betrayed. The true massive shock is Joel's death.

Then the characters would have no reasonable knowledge of how to track Abby down though. If the player doesn't know, then they can't expect the characters to know either. And if they be like, "Oh we tracked her to Seattle." Then every player would be like, "How? How did you do that? Why track her all the way to Seattle only to come back and inform the group/player? Unless you mean to have it happen like the game where the stupid ass murder hobos kill Joel, but don't kill Ellie that walks in on them, and ALSO has to be stupid enough to tell Ellie where they are from before they leave.

It would play out exactly as it does in the game, we just don't see what Abby was up to, only Ellie. So Ellie still gets the info from Tommy about the Washington Liberation Front patches on their jackets.

In order for this to happen I feel like Abby's group would have to kill a lot more people that Ellie knows. Perhaps there could have been a story about the WLF trying to move in and take over Jackson but then you lose the personal touch of revenge.

No matter what, taking Ellie down this path has to be a betrayal to her character. However my idea above where Abby and Ellie become friends in a way would at least ADD to the need for revenge because not only does Abby betray the friendship, she also kills off the beloved father figure. So it's a double hit to push Ellie over the edge better imo.

I had a somewhat similar idea of having Dina be, not so much a spy, but someone who betrays the settlement of Jackson, causing the death of maybe Tommy and/or Maria. (Not Joel. I feel his death casts too large of a shadow over any other emotional moment in the future.) Dina gets away, and Ellie wracked with guilt and a feeling of betrayal sets out to track her down, to bring her back to face justice, to kill her herself, or to simply ask why. It might still feel contrived, but at this point I'm kinda selfish in the changes that I feel would suffice.

This is because they wanted the Fatherhood Duality. Joel killed Abby's father so Abby kills Joel who is basically Ellie's father. Killing Marlene doesn't have the same impact especially if trying to drive a Ying/Yang type of thing.

They could've made Marlene be a surrogate parent to Abby the same way Joel was to Ellie.

In all honesty though, Ellie's story should've been completely about how she thought she could save the world, but didn't due to Joel's actions. How this impacts her, how she's suffering in wanting to call someone she deeply cares for out on his lie. How this maybe sinks Joel's character deeper into questionable behavior, or how he sacrifices Ellie's love for him to finally come clean. How Ellie maybe ultimately distances herself from him for her own growth as a person, and how his actions to keep her with him eventually still costs him the daughter he thought he could keep. The core should've been the fractured love between Ellie and Joel, not this horribly misguided and ill-conceived revenge plot.

 

[Bedinsis]

I mean the setting in which the game takes place restricts things a bit. Make-up, hair products, cute clothes, and other "girlie" things are probably no longer in use as they aren't made anymore and frankly aren't practical when you need to run from a Fungus man at any given second. Those clothes did sort of appear in Part 2 during things like the dancing/kiss scene where they were dressed a little more comfortably but even then it was held within universe.

I haven't played any The Last of Us game, but assuming it's a standard zombie apocalypse setting:
Even if they aren't made anymore there probably still are some leftovers from before the apocalypse. The point about impracticality stands though.

 

[CriticalGaming]

But in the game as is, it really isn't

Well yeah, that was my point to begin with. The game sucks, or rather the game's story sucks.

We know very quickly she's got less than favourable intensions toward a man that is very likely Joel, so it's not like our trust in her gets betrayed.

Which, if you read what my intro was about, you'll see that i keep her intentions vague. In fact I give her several chances to murder Joel in order to build that trust with the audience. Read what I put again. My way tells the audience that something is up with Abby, but you're never told and then you spend the next 4 or 5 hours or whatever liking her almost or maybe completely forgetting that she's got some shit going on and that shoe just isn't dropping. You like Abby, you might even trust her (to a degree) and then the betray and Joel's death hits which is a massive shock.

As Part 2 is right now, Joel's death isn't a shock, it happens to quickly and there isn't enough time given to the player to get refamiliar with Joel and Ellie before shit happens.

There is nothing wrong with Joel dying, I think we would all reasonably assume Joel dies in Part 2 just because the nature of the games in general. But what sucks is how he dies, how it betrays his character because he acts fucking stupid, it feels rushed, undeserved, and certainly unearned. Which means the rest of the entire game is now tainted because it's trying to get an emotional pay-off from the player that it didn't earn.

I had a somewhat similar idea of having Dina be, not so much a spy, but someone who betrays the settlement of Jackson, causing the death of maybe Tommy and/or Maria. (Not Joel. I feel his death casts too large of a shadow over any other emotional moment in the future.) Dina gets away, and Ellie wracked with guilt and a feeling of betrayal sets out to track her down, to bring her back to face justice, to kill her herself, or to simply ask why. It might still feel contrived, but at this point I'm kinda selfish in the changes that I feel would suffice.

This could work too, but I feel like it's too much of a rewrite. My goal with my idea is to be able to still have a vast portion of the game happen as it already exists. There is a fun game I sometimes like to play (I did this with the new Saint's Row garbage) in that I try to retell the story in a more interesting way that STILL keeps the original story mostly intact. Which is why none of what I set up for my version would cause any character changes. Everything for the most part still works the same.

In all honesty though, Ellie's story should've been completely about how she thought she could save the world, but didn't due to Joel's actions.

My question is this. Was Ellie ever told she would be saving the world? Did anyone tell her that she would have to die before they could even find out if there was a CHANCE? We know the answer to that is no, because we saw it in the flashback that separates Joel and Ellie. She knew nothing, and frankly her reaction while slightly justified, is a bit irrational and stupid because Joel just saved her life, a life she would have given up without ever knowing why. It's really stupid.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I haven't played any The Last of Us game, but assuming it's a standard zombie apocalypse setting:
Even if they aren't made anymore there probably still are some leftovers from before the apocalypse.

Well it takes place 20-something years AFTER the apocalypse happened. In fact Ellie was born post-apocalypse so her own viewpoints of womanly things, beauty, etc would be vastly skewed because all she would know is this new survivalist world.

 

[Casual Shinji]

My question is this. Was Ellie ever told she would be saving the world? Did anyone tell her that she would have to die before they could even find out if there was a CHANCE? We know the answer to that is no, because we saw it in the flashback that separates Joel and Ellie. She knew nothing, and frankly her reaction while slightly justified, is a bit irrational and stupid because Joel just saved her life, a life she would have given up without ever knowing why. It's really stupid.

The simple fact that Ellie is immune and no one else on record has been means that yeah, she would be key in ridding humanity of the plague that crippled it. I mean, it's the driving motivation behind the entire first game. They're traveling across the U.S. not just for yucks, but because at the end of this journey there may very well lie a better world for all of mankind.

She knew enough, she's not stupid. She knows Joel was lying, she simply doesn't have the information to actually call him out on it, plus the fact that she does love the guy. If Joel just saved her life AND was completely honest about how and why there frankly wouldn't be as much of a problem. Morally speaking that is, because Ellie would obviously seriously resent him for what he did, and that's exactly why he lied. He lied to keep her with him, out of fear that she would hate him. He lied to her face. To the girl that he sees as his own daughter. He lied to her knowing full well how much this means to her, and how much it's hurting her that it was all for nothing. Leaving her in a state of confusion and disillusion, never really being able to move on from it, and gaslighting her whenever she tries to bring it up, to give him a chance to finally explain what actually happened and give her closure.

He chose his own peace of mind over hers, and he did so for three years. Ignoring and brushing off her genuine calls to him to be honest with her. Him saving her life doesn't make this any less of a really shitty thing for a parent to do to a child. And her crying and saying the two of them are through is mild compared to the reaction he deserved from her.

 

[CriticalGaming]

The simple fact that Ellie is immune and no one else on record has been means that yeah, she would be key in ridding humanity of the plague that crippled it. I mean, it's the driving motivation behind the entire first game. They're traveling across the U.S. not just for yucks, but because at the end of this journey there may very well lie a better world for all of mankind.

Which by the way is a huge plot hole in the first game because you can't make vaccines for fungal infections. Also it's implied that Ellie isn't the first person the Fireflies have encountered immune to the infection, which could have been a whole game concept on it's own. Imagine if the Jackson people encountered a whole group of people in vulnerable to the infection and so they move from town to town using infected as weapons against settlements to move in and steal all their shit.

He chose his own peace of mind over hers, and he did so for three years. Ignoring and brushing off her genuine calls to him to be honest with her. Him saving her life doesn't make this any less of a really shitty thing for a parent to do to a child. And her crying and saying the two of them are through is mild compared to the reaction he deserved from her.

I mean I don't think any parent would just let their kid be killed on a whim either. Ellie can hate him all she wants, Joel was right here.

Look Joel has done fucked up stuff and it's hard to argue he is a good person because he isn't. Sara's death broke him in a lot of ways for a long long time. So he deserves to die.

However in the case of pulling Ellie away from the Fireflies, he was 100% right. They had no proof their experiments would or could work, they didn't even ask Ellie if she would be willing to sacrifice herself for the chance at the world's salvation, they did everything wrong to make sure that Joel running through them like a hot knife through butter to save her was the right call to make.

The truth angering Ellie and her hating him, would hurt him a fuckload. HE lied so that they could have whatever time they could with each other before the truth eventually would come out. A stall and nothing more.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Which by the way is a huge plot hole in the first game because you can't make vaccines for fungal infections. Also it's implied that Ellie isn't the first person the Fireflies have encountered immune to the infection, which could have been a whole game concept on it's own. Imagine if the Jackson people encountered a whole group of people in vulnerable to the infection and so they move from town to town using infected as weapons against settlements to move in and steal all their shit.

Yeah, but you also can't infect humans with fungus and turn them into zombies. It's a fictional vaccine to a fictional zombie fungal infection. If you can suspend your disbelief that this zombie fungus can exist in this universe, I don't get why it suddenly stops when it comes to a team of scientists being able to synthesize a cure/vaccine against it from the mutated strain in Ellie brain.

And it's not implied there's more immune people. This is somekind of weird Streisand effect in the fan comunity due to that one recording speaking of Ellie's immunity compared to other test subjects. Those other test subjects being others infected by the fungus - the zombies - which Ellie technically is. It specifically mentions Ellie being different compared to those other test subjects.

I mean I don't think any parent would just let their kid be killed on a whim either. Ellie can hate him all she wants, Joel was right here.

Look Joel has done fucked up stuff and it's hard to argue he is a good person because he isn't. Sara's death broke him in a lot of ways for a long long time. So he deserves to die.

However in the case of pulling Ellie away from the Fireflies, he was 100% right. They had no proof their experiments would or could work, they didn't even ask Ellie if she would be willing to sacrifice herself for the chance at the world's salvation, they did everything wrong to make sure that Joel running through them like a hot knife through butter to save her was the right call to make.

Except Ellie can't hate Joel all she wants, as she has nowhere for all these bottled-up emotions to go because he refuses to be honest with her. It's a lie she's very much aware of but can't rid herself of either because Joel won't own up to it.

As for proof, it's stated that if they remove the growth they can reverse engineer a vaccine, by both Marlene and that one recording. And neither is framed as them just pulling it out of their ass. We can speculate on the legitimacy of this proceedure in the real world, but within this fictional world this would succeed had Joel not intervened. And that's the whole point of the ending; Joel giving up the world so he can save the daughter he once couldn't. So no, he didn't do 100% the right thing, because the ending would've lacked any punch whatsoever if he did. This is extra punctuated by him killing the surgeon which he didn't need to do at all, and by executing Marlene who was no threat to him. Sure, she knew the truth and could come after him, but so did the Fireflies who chased him to the elevator. Those kills are fully fueled by anger, and with Marlene by the fear that this person who Ellie greatly respects could tell her the truth and have her leave him.

The truth angering Ellie and her hating him, would hurt him a fuckload. HE lied so that they could have whatever time they could with each other before the truth eventually would come out. A stall and nothing more.

Exactly! And it's at the expense of Ellie; the one true innocent in this whole ordeal. He doesn't respect her to make her own decision about him should she know the truth, and he keeps it from her for his own benefit alone. It's certainly not for hers, because he already knows she suspects something and knowingly leaves it there for her to not be able to do anything with. It's not just a stall, it's a lie that's hurting Ellie and Ellie alone.

 

[CriticalGaming]

And neither is framed as them just pulling it out of their ass. We can speculate on the legitimacy of this proceedure in the real world, but within this fictional world this would succeed had Joel not intervened

I believe they only express there is a CHANCE that it works in the games. There was no guarantee IIRC. I might be wrong but I think that the game made it pretty clear throughout that the Fireflies where not good people either and were lying for a lot of the game. Am I misremembering?

So no, he didn't do 100% the right thing, because the ending would've lacked any punch whatsoever if he did.

IMO he did the right thing as a father. Joel is a practical guy and he isn't stupid. The cure wasn't 100% a sure thing, plus the Fireflies have been know terrorists for a long time before the game even happens, plus Joel knows that if someone had the power of a cure they would abuse that power and the world is probably too far gone for anything to be saved.

The big problem with the story at the end here is there are FAR too many what if's.

If a cure is successful, can they manufacture enough for demand in a run down world?
If a cure is possible will it cure people already zombies or only as an emergency cure for people who've been infected but not yet changed?
If a cure is only a treatment what happens to the group in control of this cure?

So now you consider the idea of, "Is the solution worse than the cause?" Because the world is fucked beyond belief, even if humanity suddenly didn't have to worry about the fungus anymore, there aren't enough people left to eradicate all infected zones or build society so what world are you really curing? Nothing really, you are removing one danger and replacing it with several more.

But it's a video game story so some of this you have to wave away right. But you also can't ignore it when you have conversations like this where we try to argue the morality of what the character did. The only way we can consider the morality is consider the situation as if it were real. Which breaks the argument down entirely because the moment you start using real-world logic a ton of other problems with the situation pop up.

 

[Silvanus]

I actually think the Tess redesign is a bigger change. Prefer the new version.

(Obligatory "this shouldn't be $70" agreement disclaimer)

 

[CriticalGaming]

I actually think the Tess redesign is a bigger change. Prefer the new version.

(Obligatory "this shouldn't be $70" agreement disclaimer)

New Tess is best Tess but best Tess is not $70 Tess.