Hogwarts Legacy - Whimsical Wizardry

Satinavian

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?? Are trans activists the only ones who you'd expect to care about these issues?
No.

But actually investing a lot of time to take part in pro trans right demonstration and related voluntary activities is another matter. I would call anyone who does that a trans right activist. Because we were talking about this :
You're not going to go to demonstrations and get screamed at by TERFs, you're not going to go through the long, tiring process of writing letters or making formal complaints. You're not going to volunteer your time to support people affected by any of this. Why would you? Not being able to play a mediocre video game for a short time is already too much for you. Those things are a lot harder.
I never claimed to do that.

But when i stated it here, TerminalBlue answered as if i had shown my true colors or whatever and how that is proof i was not a good person.
I know you don't care. I always knew you didn't care and frankly, I'm glad you've given up pretending that you care, because it's annoying watching you pretend to be a good person.
Obviously a certain person here is riding the "You are with us or are against us" train to the fullest extend.


You more or less just proved Terminal's point just now. I hope you do realize that. "Not my problem".
Franky, it is not my problem.

I do acknowledge the problems trans people face and feel somewhat bad for them. But when it comes to all the things wrong with the world and actually investing time and money to make it better, i find many other things significantly more important and pressing. I might do something on a trans issue if i can have a relevant effect with relatively little cost or when something particularly relevant pops up, but otherwise i won't be active on this matter.
 
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Buyetyen

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Obviously a certain person here is riding the "You are with us or are against us" train to the fullest extend.
Considering how many people can't even do the bare minimum of not playing a video game, I'm not exactly going to fault the trans community for believing themselves to be effectively on their own.
 
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Satinavian

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Considering how many people can't even do the bare minimum of not playing a video game, I'm not exactly going to fault the trans community for believing themselves to be effectively on their own.
Well they probably don't have that much influence, that is correct.

And wasting it on this boycott was an extremely stupid move. They hardly get anything out of it.
 

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Franky, it is not my problem.

I do acknowledge the problems trans people face and feel somewhat bad for them. But when it comes to all the things wrong with the world and actually investing time and money to make it better,
I don't know any trans people personally, but I wonder how much your tone would change, if it was a friend of yours or someone you do care about is trans.

find many other things significantly more important and pressing
You don't have to do everything, but do what you can. And you can do it. Even if you don't believe it.
 

Buyetyen

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Well they probably don't have that much influence, that is correct.

And wasting it on this boycott was an extremely stupid move. They hardly get anything out of it.
No, I'm not talking about influence, I mean allies. The trans community has precious few friends and clutching your pearls over a boycott that was never going to succeed in the first place just reinforces that fact.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I expect you to acknowledge it's existence! I've talked with trans people online that hate what's happening here, I don't blame them for this, at most I've asked some to keep just saying that they don't like it. Just acknowledge it! The bottling up and han waving helps no one, it just causes pressure to build up that WILL have to be released at some point and it will be an explosion if some of isn't let out gradually and safely.
Speaking of, I linked you a couple twitter threads where this was happening to The Other Side that didn't get any acknowledgement.

Though if you've got me muted, that makes sense. And you're right, bottling that up helps no one, my rant being a personal example of shit not getting even a glance of acknowledgement and how frustrating that can be.

Best way to end this quickly is to *not* play endless rounds of "But what about *this* terrible thing! Prove you aren't terrible!" followed by 10 pages of discussion about double standards and what, precisely, counts as harassment against your blorbos vs what counts as harassment against other blorbos, involving people that literally nobody on this forum is actually connected to *on any side*, just a bunch of Mylars half the people here have never heard about until just now.
 
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Satinavian

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I don't know any trans people personally, but I wonder how much your tone would change, if it was a friend of yours or someone you do care about is trans.
I already said i would likely act if i was more personally involved. Friends are friends. Just to be clear, that does not mean taking part in some boycott that i don't believe in and that won't realistically impact the situation of my friend. I have had friends that did boycotts and i did not join every single one of them. And it never costed me a friendship. But yes, in time of need i would obviously stay with my friends.

But i don't have trans friends, i have 2 trans aquantances i barely know, certainly not close enough to share any problems with me. And the country i live in doesn't have some stupid culture war with instrumentalized trans issues. So when i read about them, it is mostly from faraway places. Which limits both my options and my involvement further.
I mean how motivated are you to actually do something when you read about some new unjust law against some minority in another country ? Is there really more than thinking "Oh, that sounds bad" and going back to normal life anyway?
 
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McElroy

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I'm not exactly going to fault the trans community for believing themselves to be effectively on their own.
Yeah. Not special just like the rest of us. Terminally online people are the makers of their own problems and they don't want normal people (in this particular case that includes a lot of relatively normal transpeople) to be their allies.
I don't know any trans people personally, but I wonder how much your tone would change, if it was a friend of yours or someone you do care about is trans.
You can try a comparative thought experiment. How much would you appease your black friends if they started a boycott you would've otherwise never even imagined participating in? Would you lie to them? Dismiss them? Participate for a while? Ignore it and don't care? Debate them to the ground?

Personally I've spent so much time online listening to heated... discussions that I can pretty easily either debate them (family members for example) down from a stupid position or rationalize mine effectively or err on the side of skepticism and rarely if ever change. edit. I'll add that in general if a friend has an interest that they are heavily into but you're not, you won't really get into their excitement anyways, and you won't be friends for long if that investment becomes deeply personal.
 
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BrawlMan

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I already said i would likely act if i was more personally involved. Friends are friends.
, i have 2 trans aquantances i barely know, certainly not close enough to share any problems with me.
Fair enough, but still do what you can.

So when i read about them, it is mostly from faraway places. Which limits both my options and my involvement further.
Hence why I said, do what you can. I'm not asking you to go out of country or any of that. Do what you can around you. It's not that hard. Even if it looks like it's something small and insignificant; it is not. A small kind gesture can go a long way.

Is there really more than thinking "Oh, that sounds bad" and going back to normal life anyway?
Yes. And all you are doing right now just making excuses. Once again, I'm not asking you to do everything, but do what you can on your time. Or make time. Your choice.
 
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Silvanus

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You can try a comparative thought experiment. How much would you appease your black friends if they started a boycott you would've otherwise never even imagined participating in? Would you lie to them? Dismiss them? Participate for a while? Ignore it and don't care? Debate them to the ground?
Uhrm, dude, if my black friends pointed out that the company/creator in question was advocating that they not be allowed into domestic abuse charities, then I'd probably join then in the boycott.

Personally I've spent so much time online listening to heated... discussions that I can pretty easily either debate them (family members for example) down from a stupid position or rationalize mine effectively or err on the side of skepticism and rarely if ever change.
It's incredible to me that you'd say you "rarely if ever change" as if it's a positive in any way, rather than quite a shoddy reflection.
 
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BrawlMan

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How much would you appease your black friends if they started a boycott you would've otherwise never even imagined participating in? Would you lie to them? Dismiss them? Participate for a while? Ignore it and don't care? Debate them to the ground?
I can bring up Resident Evil 5. Most my black friends were either indifferent (all them still hated the stereotypical African monster tribesmen), or had no problem with others enjoying the game. They had bigger issues with people trying to shut down arguments online and sending death threats to a black video games writer and analysis on the subject of negative and stereo typical depictions of blacks or Africans in video games.
 

McElroy

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It's incredible to me that you'd say you "rarely if ever change" as if it's a positive in any way, rather than quite a shoddy reflection.
It's a reflection upon the fact that I'm one of those terminally online people myself and don't have friends. Following the so-called debate bros on top of being generally curious for years (and formally well-educated) builds a good foundation for learning and picking up on what people mean without really compromising the personal bottom-line. So it is a positive to be able to navigate the grievances people have instead of simply budging.

Anyway soon after commenting I too realized that expression wasn't the best. Because it was in relation to family members, and family members know each other well enough already - all the fights over irrational bullshit are in the past. The lesson learned is to just let that bullshit stay there.
I can bring up Resident Evil 5. Most my black friends were either indifferent (all them still hated the stereotypical African monster tribesmen), or had no problem with others enjoying the game. They had bigger issues with people trying to shut down arguments online and sending death threats to a black video games writer and analysis on the subject of negative and stereo typical depictions of blacks or Africans in video games.
What different action did they take compared to you?
 

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It's a reflection upon the fact that I'm one of those terminally online people myself and don't have friends. Following the so-called debate bros on top of being generally curious for years (and formally well-educated) builds a good foundation for learning and picking up on what people mean without really compromising the personal bottom-line. So it is a positive to be able to navigate the grievances people have instead of simply budging.

Anyway soon after commenting I too realized that expression wasn't the best. Because it was in relation to family members, and family members know each other well enough already - all the fights over irrational bullshit are in the past. The lesson learned is to just let that bullshit stay there.

What different action did they take compared to you?
Made their voices heard, and that was that. They didn't harass anybody, they didn't make threats they get mad at people for buying the game. The good thing about this is that, most sensible RE and Capcom and we're in agreement and actually called out those making death threats or trying to excuse the the negative racial & cultural stereotypes. Then again, the "fans" making said threats (added w/racist threats and language; I forgot to mention that), more than likely weren't actually fans to begin with. Shallow, dickless, bigoted assholes playing the game to justify their racism and making threats of any criticisms.
 

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Made their voices heard, and that was that. They didn't harass anybody, they didn't make threats they get mad at people for buying the game.
And you joined in on the boycott because it was the so-called right thing to do or because otherwise they'd be mad at you too?
 

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And you joined in on the boycott because it was the so-called right thing to do or because otherwise they'd be mad at you too?
What boycott? There was no boycott between us nor an outcry for one on re5. We all went about our own business like grown ass adults. I never bought a copy of re5 at the time, but it wasn't because of boycott. Mine was more so budgetary and just getting games that I was interested in. I kept putting it off until I got the PS4 port. Best decision anyway, because it came with all the DLC and bonus content for free. Mercenaries mode is unlocked from the start in that version. I did play the game over at one of the dorms in college. Some of my friends bought the game, and some of them didn't. None of us had to start fights over it. Nor ignore our feelings on the matter.
 

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((Side note, I actually watched a lot of the GF Reviews stream of Hogwarts Legacy live. I'm a big fan of theirs. Donating proceeds to the Trevor Project seems a fairly good way to navigate the morals of it)).
I mean honestly, the morals of this feel pretty cut and dry to me. "Does this game actually promote the views that Rowling is criticized for?" As far as I've heard, the answer (at least for those views relevant to this discussion) is no, and Rowling wasn't even actively involved in its production, she just gets a cut of the profits because it exists in her IP. Its only [relevant] 'sin' is that it is set in her franchise. That's it. As such, criticizing the game for those views is misaimed, amounting to little more than guilt by association.

...Or really, guilt by association with a group whose founder has endorsed prejudicial views (views that the group does not endorse) outside of that group. ...You know, the exact same logic we rightly mock when Pro-Lifers try to poison the well by claiming that Planned Parenthood's founder was racist? Or when the usual suspects try to make claims about BLM's founders that they insist necessarily invalidate the entire movement? Or when creationists make allegations about Darwin as a person as if that would undermine evolutionary theory? We recognize that even if those criticisms were factually correct, they'd still be irrelevant because the transitive property does not work that way. Legacies often take on an independent existence that renders their creators all but incidental.

Never mind extending such accusations to those who play the game, which is no more solid than claiming anyone who watched Mickey's Christmas Carol is tacitly condoning antisemitism on the grounds that Walt Disney himself was antisemitic (veracity of that claim about Walt notwithstanding, we will assume it to be true here here for the sake of argument). The logic simply doesn't work and is only maintained through threading a line through several intermediaries with the functional equivalent of strings and thumbtacks while pretending for all practical purposes that those intermediaries don't exist.

I mean, let's be honest here, we have much better case for connecting Lovecraft's works to his racism and prejudices because the more you learn about the guy the more you understand how those prejudices bled into those works. Hell, when you learn about his disgust towards miscegenation, it becomes all too easy to infer that Shadow Over Innsmouth was practically a "Great Replacement" allegory. Even so, we draw a clear line between Lovecraft's prejudices and his writings, instead judging the latter on an individual basis rather than dubbing them irrevocably tainted simply because of their authorship.

And even when the stories are recognizably inspired by his prejudices, we still are able to appreciate them as stories despite that inspiration. Reading and even enjoying Innsmouth is not considered a tacit agreement with Lovecraft's flaws, even those that inspired the story. And this is a guy who literally waxed poetic (in a poem I shall not name) about how he saw black people as semi-humans filled with vice whose god-given purpose was to simply bridge the otherwise insurmountable gap between man and beast! The guy was a piece of work, especially in his early years.

But despite his appreciable failings, we certainly don't judge people for playing Call of Cthulhu as tacitly standing with that contemptible poem. The TTRPG is recognized as distinct from the poem. While Lovecraft's rather pronounced personality flaws are thoroughly worth criticizing, not even the stories he himself wrote are deemed racist purely by way of the transitive property. Any argument deeming one of those works racist is instead predicated on any racist elements contained within it, and even that is rarely - in itself - treated as making the work not worth reading.

Of course, it's even more of a stretch to try - as if it were a matter of course - to apply his flaws to the works of any writers who add to the mythos he started, much less to the readers who consume those stories. It's nothing short of absurd to claim that anyone who reads August Delerth's "The Return of Hastur" is tacitly condoning the views Lovecraft expressed in the aforementioned poem simply because "The Return of Hastur" is part of the Cthulhu Mythos, which was created Lovecraft, who wrote that poem as an expression of his racism. That simply does not follow.

But that is exactly the logic we seem to be insisting on here with regards to Hogwarts Legacy and Rowling: that because Hogwarts Legacy (analogous to the TTRPG, which obviously was made without Lovecraft's involvement) exists in the Harry Potter franchise (Cthulhu mythos) - which is owned by Rowling (Lovecraft) - playing the game is treated as condoning Rowling's personal political views.

For ease of example, let's focus on your example of the streamer playing it. We're taking an insanely reductionist view that anyone who consumes the game in any form should be defined by a component that - to the best of my knowledge - the streamer is not expressing or condoning (and in fact may be demonstrating opposition to), and is neither present in the game, nor the franchise it is a part of. That we need to go down the grapevine until we get to the original creator whom we reduce to that component we are objecting to because she expressed those views as personal political speech, and then treat that as an intrinsic and irrevocable component of everything that is so much as involved with materials connected to the things she created. It's specious logic at best that basically tries to pretend that a chain of indirect links through association are instead a single direct link (sometimes even as far as a causative one).

Even if we're trying to argue this through Rowling's personal finances going to organizations that share/champion those views and us adding to those finances by consuming (in any manner) anything she gets royalties on, that still hits the problem of trying to present a chain of indirect links as a single direct and clear link. That if you in any way touch Hogwarts Legacy, you are making it clear that you support those prejudicial agendas by supporting those groups purely because Rowling gets some money through the game by way of royalties and some of her money goes to those organizations.

One might as well be arguing that anyone who watches Top Gun Maverick should stop lying and just admit that they're really a Scientologist because Tom Cruise starred in it and he's a Scientologist, and that therefore anything short of you boycotting anything he gets money from means that you are indirectly financing that organization. It's the same logic.

And again, it's specious logic fully embraces the consumer-blaming variant of the "no such thing as ethical consumption" sentiment and exacerbates it with "six degrees of separation" logic, which means we can theoretically make a similar connection to practically anything by employing a similar number of links through different people and groups.

So my conclusion is very simple: If we have to go that far down the rabbit hole to justify the objection, the link is not substantive enough to be a tenable position and certainly isn't worth policing our companions over, much less burning bridges over. Treating this game as an extension of Rowling's views despite the views not only not being represented in it but Rowling not being involved in its production isn't taking a stand against Rowling's transphobia, nor is treating the act of playing the game like declaring allegiance to those views. It's just applying total war tactics to blood feud logic and declaring that poor Romeo having the surname Montague is reason enough to not only want him dead, but to declare anyone who so much as sells him groceries persona non grata.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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So what?

Dreiko was the one who said "tradition" is what's needed to establish a gender. It's perfectly appropriate to respond that non-binary genders have centuries (or more) of tradition, if that's the metric he chooses to use.

If you want to argue "tradition" is not a valid metric, go right ahead-- but you wouldn't be arguing with me. You'd be arguing with Dreiko, who's the one who wanted to use it.



This is just cultural ignorance, and complete bollocks.
No it's not cultural ignorance to point out other societies had gender roles and the concept of 3rd genders or other genders were created specifically in said cultures to identify people who didn't adhere to cultural norms.
 

Thaluikhain

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I mean, let's be honest here, we have much better case for connecting Lovecraft's works to his racism and prejudices because the more you learn about the guy the more you understand how those prejudices bled into those works. Hell, when you learn about his disgust towards miscegenation, it becomes all too easy to infer that Shadow Over Innsmouth was practically a "Great Replacement" allegory. Even so, we draw a clear line between Lovecraft's prejudices and his writings, instead judging the latter on an individual basis rather than dubbing them irrevocably tainted simply because of their authorship.

And even when the stories are recognizably inspired by his prejudices, we still are able to appreciate them as stories despite that inspiration. Reading and even enjoying Innsmouth is not considered a tacit agreement with Lovecraft's flaws, even those that inspired the story. And this is a guy who literally waxed poetic (in a poem I shall not name) about how he saw black people as semi-humans filled with vice whose god-given purpose was to simply bridge the otherwise insurmountable gap between man and beast! The guy was a piece of work, especially in his early years.

But despite his appreciable failings, we certainly don't judge people for playing Call of Cthulhu as tacitly standing with that contemptible poem. The TTRPG is recognized as distinct from the poem. While Lovecraft's rather pronounced personality flaws are thoroughly worth criticizing, not even the stories he himself wrote are deemed racist purely by way of the transitive property. Any argument deeming one of those works racist is instead predicated on any racist elements contained within it, and even that is rarely - in itself - treated as making the work not worth reading.
Lovecraft is long dead, mind, which changes things. He also made his work public domain, so there's no profit involved in consuming his works.

And not everyone does draw a clear line between Lovecraft and his writings, anyway. It's a false dichotomy to claim that's the only alternative to deciding his work is irrevocably tainted. One can like elements of his work whilst acknowledging there are some really awful things in it, and I'd be suspicious of any fan who didn't.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Name one of those people. Just one. Any one.




Then go live a non-exhausting life.

Make your choice and live with it, but stop expecting forgiveness or toleration from people you clearly have no consideration for. Some of us have bigger problems in our lives than the risk we might be made to feel guilty about playing a video game.
I stopped expecting forgiveness a while ago. I think many did.
We just want people to

STAY OUT OF OUR SWAMP


For that to be true, there would have to be some hypothetical deep and significant gesture to compare it against, something you might feasibly do that would actually matter, and I think you and I both know, deep down, that there isn't.

You're not going to go to demonstrations and get screamed at by TERFs, you're not going to go through the long, tiring process of writing letters or making formal complaints. You're not going to volunteer your time to support people affected by any of this. Why would you? Not being able to play a mediocre video game for a short time is already too much for you. Those things are a lot harder.

If you think I'm being too soft on you, if you want me to expect more of you, then fine. I will. But until you can demonstrate to me that you have or will do anything of significance, all we're left with are the insignificant things.
Nor are 99.999% of the activists who pushed for this boycott........They'll screech on twitter and social media and go after people then pat themselves on the back saying job done and pretend they changed the world lol.



Not just Hogwarts Legacy, the entire series.

So, basically, every HP game ever produced is banned from streaming, whereas something like God of War, a series that routinely features graphic dismemberment, gets...only a single game banned.
And that's mostly because of the sex scene and scantily glad woman in one level I believe.

What makes you think that's not what is happening already? It didn't occur to you that the backlash is specifically because trans people have been expected to suffer in silence for whole lifetimes? The difference is that now they have platforms to say, "You know what? Fuck all'a y'all."
And they used that platform to object to......... people playing a video game...........That's the biggest story at present in popular culture.

Considering how many people can't even do the bare minimum of not playing a video game, I'm not exactly going to fault the trans community for believing themselves to be effectively on their own.
See that's the confusing thing. This is the bare minimum. So what kind of other stupid displays of fealty will be called for next? This really shouldn't be seen and some progression track where refusing this point means people aren't even allowed to take part in anything later on.
 

Asita

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Lovecraft is long dead, mind, which changes things. He also made his work public domain, so there's no profit involved in consuming his works.

And not everyone does draw a clear line between Lovecraft and his writings, anyway. It's a false dichotomy to claim that's the only alternative to deciding his work is irrevocably tainted. One can like elements of his work whilst acknowledging there are some really awful things in it, and I'd be suspicious of any fan who didn't.
One might note that I also invoked Tom Cruise and Scientology as a contemporary example for the explicit purpose of addressing profits going indirectly to...let's be diplomatic and say questionable organizations. If you prefer, I could also invoke Orson Scott Card and homophobia, Chick fil-A and the same, Keanu Reeves and the "Shakespeare Authorship Question", Willie Nelson and drug abuse...If you don't like the Lovecraft example because he's dead, it's not like I'm not spoiled for choice with contemporary examples of varying severity. Lovecraft was just the easiest 1:1 example that came to mind because he was an easily recognizable bigot whose work created an IP that sprawled beyond his individual contributions, and even extended through third parties into games, creating a tangible parallel with the Harry Potter franchise and the third party created Hogwarts Legacy.

One might further note that I spent a good chunk of that post emphasizing and re-emphasizing that Lovecraft's contemptible views obviously bled into his work, with the point being that we still didn't judge people as worse simply for having consumed them, much less for consuming the works of less checkered individuals who didn't share those views but still contributed to the IP. My point was exactly what you say: that "one can one can like elements of his work whilst acknowledging there are some really awful things in it", and that liking elements of that work does not constitute putting yourself on the side of those awful things, and that in the case of Hogwarts Legacy we seem to be demanding the opposite perspective even though the really awful things we're objecting to are not even a part of it.