Hogwarts Legacy - Whimsical Wizardry

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,856
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
When all of this analysis goes no further than the story itself, and doesn't take even a step into our own world, because the entire species just loves serving and is right where it should be serving us? Yeah, that'd be superficial.

Take Hermione's activism, for example. Her original activism fails to respect the viewpoint of those she wants to help; she grows to be helpful in a way that's more respectful. That's superficial analysis, yes-- it's literally just what the story presents to you. Dig just an inch more and you notice that the activism the book presents as bad and disrespectful is... activism that aims at systemic change. Systemic change is portrayed as naive, laughable, doomed to fail, and not in the interest of the workers who just love to work. The activism that really works, and is respectful, is portrayed as... ameliorating the conditions within the existing system, rather than challenging or changing it.



The irony of saying this, and then accusing someone else of poisoning the well, ain't lost.



Hypocrisy.
You were so close to making a realization. So damn close.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,856
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
Go ahead, then; try to convince me that systemic change is undesirable.
It is not systemic change that is undesirable, it is failing to understand how the system you're in, works and what you will be changing it into. People get fixated on just trying to get the plane to take off from the ground that they don't think about how it's supposed to LAND.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hawki

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,036
6,341
118
Country
United Kingdom
It is not systemic change that is undesirable, it is failing to understand how the system you're in, works and what you will be changing it into. People get fixated on just trying to get the plane to take off from the ground that they don't think about how it's supposed to LAND.
This is all still just the face-value interpretation the story presents you with.

Dig an inch further. So the story presents Hermione's efforts to change the system as unworkable, for exactly those reasons, OK. And what does it present as the desirable alternative? Uhrm... changing nothing.

And what is the system itself? Well, it's absolute subservience on the basis of species. In a story chock full of social and political commentary, what parallels or analogies in our own world are closest to that?
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
29,306
12,216
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
Why are you so invested in treating a fantasy as real life?
Because there are too many people that do and take it far worse than, what @Buyetyen is doing. There are people out there that can, have, or will use fantasy to justify their racism, sexism, or slavery. There's nothing new and let's not pretend otherwise.
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,207
5,676
118
Because there are too many people that do and take it far worse than, what @Buyetyen is doing. There are people out there that can, have, or will use fantasy to justify their racism, sexism, or slavery. There's nothing new and let's not pretend otherwise.
But that isn't the fault of a creator. Fandoms take shit too seriously all over the place, it's the nature of fandoms in general and not the fault of the creator who, most likely, doesn't have some super villain master plan at work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Elvis Starburst

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,856
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
This is all still just the face-value interpretation the story presents you with.

Dig an inch further. So the story presents Hermione's efforts to change the system as unworkable, for exactly those reasons, OK. And what does it present as the desirable alternative? Uhrm... changing nothing.

And what is the system itself? Well, it's absolute subservience on the basis of species. In a story chock full of social and political commentary, what parallels or analogies in our own world are closest to that?
Why does there NEED to be a solution? We argue about real world problems with no solution that everyone can agree on. Why is it wrong for Hermoine to see something as bad but try to fix it in a way that fails to do so and for the House Elves to genuinely be mistreated and need to be helped while also not WANTING to be helped? That's a complicated issue, but like most things that aren't the main plot, it doesn't get a full investment. That doesn't mean JK Rowling SUPPORTS SLAVERY! You CAN'T cover all the themes and stories that come up in a book. And if you clap back with "Well why bring it up at all?" Because it makes the world feel more real. It enriches the experience to be able to see moving parts in a clock tower doing their thing, even if you won't get a chance to understand what all of them do.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
29,306
12,216
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
But that isn't the fault of a creator.
Depends on who we're talking about. Robert E. Howard, HP Lovecraft, Frank Miller, and even Dr. Seuss say otherwise. At least Dr Seuss regretted many of his earlier works, and ordered that his estate never released the books ever again to the public. Plenty of alt-right conservatives in Klan members got pissed off with that one. Don't even get me started with Fox News. They're not hiding history either. They admitted what happened, but they no longer want these works released in the public. Fine by me.

You can go on about how all these books were part of their respective time. But it still doesn't change that they showed anyone that is black or a dark skin color, to be mindless savages or slaves to interdimensional beings that should be shot down or put down. Rowling I wouldn't exactly call "innocent" in this. She's doing it subconsciously. It's a matter of whether she realized at some point or not. She knew what she was doing at some point.

Yes, there are toxic parts of fandoms, and while this doesn't happen as much anymore, it can still happen. The only difference is most people with sense, don't bother with the garbage.
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
I'm invested in fiction being okay.
No you're not. You're just knee-jerk protecting something you like.

Why are you so invested in treating a fantasy as real life?
If you think that's what I'm doing then you're not paying attention and just want the critics of things you like to shut up forever.

But that isn't the fault of a creator.
Bad writing is. Biases are. You're all about coulda, not shoulda.

Why does there NEED to be a solution? We argue about real world problems with no solution that everyone can agree on. Why is it wrong for Hermoine to see something as bad but try to fix it in a way that fails to do so and for the House Elves to genuinely be mistreated and need to be helped while also not WANTING to be helped? That's a complicated issue, but like most things that aren't the main plot, it doesn't get a full investment. That doesn't mean JK Rowling SUPPORTS SLAVERY! You CAN'T cover all the themes and stories that come up in a book. And if you clap back with "Well why bring it up at all?" Because it makes the world feel more real. It enriches the experience to be able to see moving parts in a clock tower doing their thing, even if you won't get a chance to understand what all of them do.
If it's a complicated issue, then stop demanding surface-level takes from everybody. Also, I would not hold up the wizarding world as a stellar example of literary worldbuilding. The whole thing is held together literally by magic. It's the ultimate handwave.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan