Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade; states can ban abortion

[Avnger]

You should be smart enough to understand this is not making any miscarriages illegal. You should be smart enough to question why the internet is lying to you if the truth is sufficiently damning.

No, every miscarriage would not be a murder investigation, any more than every death gets a murder investigation. They don't just haphazardly prosecute people whose children die. Treating the unborn as children does not change that.

Let me lay out a scenario and get your opinion:

A pregnant person commits a felony (say, first-degree murder) that normally results in being held in jail before/throughout the trial and in prison once convicted.

Which of the following actions should the state take?

1. Jail/imprison the pregnant person per criminal statutes for their actions and therefore violate the due process rights of the unborn child as they are necessarily imprisoned at the same time.
2. Not jail/imprison the pregnant person as the rights of the unborn child supersede the fact that the pregnant person committed a crime that legally would result in imprisonment for anyone else. This could also endanger the general public and let the pregnant person commit further crimes.
3. Forcibly enact a medical procedure on the body of the pregnant person (and therefore violate a number of privacy, bodily autonomy, cruel/unusual punishment, etc rights) to force-birth the unborn child (and therefore violate due process laws as the unborn child has done nothing wrong nor been convicted) to allow for the previously-pregnant person to be imprisoned.

If an unborn person is legally a full person, they would deserve the full rights that a born person has, correct?

Otherwise you already agree on the fact that an unborn person has fewer rights than a born person, and the disagreement is just where the line is on which the unborn deserve vs which it's better for society that they don't have.

 

[Ag3ma]

No, every miscarriage would not be a murder investigation, any more than every death gets a murder investigation. They don't just haphazardly prosecute people whose children die. Treating the unborn as children does not change that.

An investigation is not the same as a prosecution - you shouldn't conflate them.

However, when people die, there is an investigation to determine why, even if just the coroner checking over the death certificate. Where a woman miscarries, traditionally this might go relatively unremarked upon beyond medical care for her. However, it is a valid point that under this new law, there now becomes a rationale for wider investigation.

Key to this is to consider that a lot of laws end up being used in ways they were not originally foreseen to. Thus there may well be the potential to invasively and aggressively chase women who miscarry for suspected criminality.

 

[tstorm823]

If an unborn person is legally a full person, they would deserve the full rights that a born person has, correct?

No. Children do not have the full rights of adults. It's even perfectly reasonable to argue a fetus lacks some rights that a born child has. My point here is if you think giving a fetus the same rights as a child will lead to some completely insane outcome, you're being illogical.

An investigation is not the same as a prosecution - you shouldn't conflate them.

Fair. That was sloppy phrasing.

However, when people die, there is an investigation to determine why, even if just the coroner checking over the death certificate.

This, however, was not sloppy phrasing. Up to this point, it was consistently "criminal investigation" or "murder investigation". A coroner looking at a death certificate and saying "nothing about this necessitates further investigation" is not a criminal investigation. The vast majority of deaths don't involve an investigation, and that would be just as true for the unborn as it is for everyone else.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Key to this is to consider that a lot of laws end up being used in ways they were not originally foreseen to. Thus there may well be the potential to invasively and aggressively chase women who miscarry for suspected criminality.

This is exactly how and why laws such as what we're seeing have been and are being passed, from the entire gamut of laws obligating health care providers to report miscarriages to law enforcement, all the way to failure to report, or improper disposition of fetal tissue being reasonable cause to initiate a feticide investigation. The trend of taking agency away from health care providers and pushing it onto the state, to target abortion while circumventing Roe, is decades-old. TRAP laws were just the tip of the iceberg.

This shit's exactly what happened ten years ago in Indiana, to Purvi Patel. This shit tstorm swears up and down can't happen, does happen and already has happened.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

This shit's exactly what happened ten years ago in Indiana, to Purvi Patel. This shit tstorm swears up and down can't happen, does happen and already has happened.

But this law doesn't explicitly say to punish the evil jezebel who dared to not carry the baby that a man saw fit to put into her to term, so it doesn't even matter. Or something.

 

[Thaluikhain]

But this law doesn't explicitly say to punish the evil jezebel who dared to not carry the baby that a man saw fit to put into her to term, so it doesn't even matter. Or something.

Also, did you know that it's illegal for police officers to shoot people for no reason? What are all the complaints about?

 

[Elijin]

No. Children do not have the full rights of adults. It's even perfectly reasonable to argue a fetus lacks some rights that a born child has. My point here is if you think giving a fetus the same rights as a child will lead to some completely insane outcome, you're being illogical.

Fair. That was sloppy phrasing.

This, however, was not sloppy phrasing. Up to this point, it was consistently "criminal investigation" or "murder investigation". A coroner looking at a death certificate and saying "nothing about this necessitates further investigation" is not a criminal investigation. The vast majority of deaths don't involve an investigation, and that would be just as true for the unborn as it is for everyone else.

Unless there is physical trauma (accident, abuse) an early term miscarriage is exactly the type of thing which will get investigated, because telling the difference is hard.

 

[Ag3ma]

This, however, was not sloppy phrasing. Up to this point, it was consistently "criminal investigation" or "murder investigation". A coroner looking at a death certificate and saying "nothing about this necessitates further investigation" is not a criminal investigation. The vast majority of deaths don't involve an investigation, and that would be just as true for the unborn as it is for everyone else.

I don't agree that every miscarriage will necessarily be a murder investigation either. But I think the important point here is recognising the risk for overzealous officials to harass women who have already been through the distress of a miscarriage, not that that risk was expressed as an exaggeration.

 

[tstorm823]

Unless there is physical trauma (accident, abuse) an early term miscarriage is exactly the type of thing which will get investigated, because telling the difference is hard.

That's not how criminal investigations work. Probable cause is still a thing. The basis of criminal investigations is reasonable suspicion of a crime, not "we haven't proven it wasn't a crime yet."

I don't agree that every miscarriage will necessarily be a murder investigation either. But I think the important point here is recognising the risk for overzealous officials to harass women who have already been through the distress of a miscarriage, not that that risk was expressed as an exaggeration.

In a more sane world, we see that woman as a grieving mother, just the same as if she had lost a two-year-old, or even more so with the addition of physical trauma. That will be an easier perspective to maintain when society stops doing elective abortions. This is the path to giving the people you're worried about the proper respect and understanding.

 

[Ag3ma]

In a more sane world, we see that woman as a grieving mother, just the same as if she had lost a two-year-old, or even more so with the addition of physical trauma. That will be an easier perspective to maintain when society stops doing elective abortions. This is the path to giving the people you're worried about the proper respect and understanding.

Unfortunately, the world is not more sane than it is, and I've got news for you: it's not going to magically become more sane because the odd state bans abortion.

 

[Elijin]

Oh good, you got to the point where you're saying it out loud. The law exists to create the foundation of harassment. "Reasonable cause" for investigating a miscarriage being the magic phrase.

 

[tstorm823]

Oh good, you got to the point where you're saying it out loud. The law exists to create the foundation of harassment. "Reasonable cause" for investigating a miscarriage being the magic phrase.

"God, if we make it illegal to kill children, they're gonna start harassing every parent whose child dies!" - You

Unfortunately, the world is not more sane than it is, and I've got news for you: it's not going to magically become more sane because the odd state bans abortion.

This is a microscopic piece of an enormous movement toward sanity.

Laws are among the things that help people inform their morals. A system that explicitly carves out protections for killing the unborn tells people that's a moral decision. We cannot get away from that perspective without eliminating those carve-outs.

 

[Cheetodust]

A system that explicitly carves out a right to use someone else's body tells people that's a moral decision. We cannot get away from that perspective without eliminating those carve-outs.

 

[Silvanus]

In a more sane world, we see that woman as a grieving mother, just the same as if she had lost a two-year-old, or even more so with the addition of physical trauma. That will be an easier perspective to maintain when society stops doing elective abortions. This is the path to giving the people you're worried about the proper respect and understanding.

It's already an easy enough perspective for those with a shred of human compassion.

You say yours is the path to treating these people with proper respect, yet yours is exactly the path that empowers those same overzealous officials to make life hell for the women in question.

 

[Samtemdo8]

So what's the latest news?

 

[Gordon_4]

So what's the latest news?

Shit’s fucked.

 

[tstorm823]

Your argument is that fetuses make decisions? Congratulations.

You say yours is the path to treating these people with proper respect, yet yours is exactly the path that empowers those same overzealous officials to make life hell for the women in question.

You mean the overzealous officials in your imagination?

 

[Silvanus]

You mean the overzealous officials in your imagination?

I feel like we've had enough examples already provided to consign this blue-sky nonsense to the bin.

 

[Lykosia]

You mean the overzealous officials in your imagination?

Reality is often crazier than imagination

 

[Kwak]

Reality is often crazier than imagination

And more full of horror.

Women who seek abortion in South Carolina could face death penalty

A new bill introduced could enforce the death penalty for any woman who receives an abortion in South Carolina.

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