Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade; states can ban abortion

Terminal Blue

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And statistically 0% of them have been treated as murder.
Give or take a bit..

where a woman miscarries after falling down the stairs, and then explicitly tells the medical professionals treating her that she didn't want the baby because her husband was leaving to her, perhaps there's reason there to think maybe she deliberately gave her own offspring a violent death.
"If only you could see the shades of grey and understand it's not all heroes and villains. Anyway, here's why DAs should be allowed to punish people for literal thoughtcrime."

What if I told you that no person wants to throw themselves down a flight of stairs as a deliberate means of terminating their own pregnancy. I mean, that's probably true right? People die falling down the stairs, it's not a safe thing to do.

Do you feel reassured by that?

See, it doesn't matter whether you imagine people want to cause harm. It matters what legal measures exist to prevent harm. You know this and understand it perfectly in regards to the only lives you value, you just expect everyone else to automatically trust and believe that pro-lifes are good people who would only act if there was some genuine reason. The problem is, that's not true. It's clearly and blatantly not true. There are countless examples of it not being true, which you are willing to tolerate.

That tells me everything I need to know about the value of your pretend morality.

Obviously I didn't mean the fetus spontaneously generates a virus or bacteria.
So, again, since you haven't answered the question.. where do the infections come from?

Because, while it is very kind of you to provide a source pointing out the extremely obvious and well known fact that uterine infections can cause fetal death (as well as complications in pregnancy) but not that stillbirth can cause uterine infections prior to delivery, I kind of expected you to argue your own case here.

Again, let's summarize the logic to conclude.

A woman is brought into hospital in labour. She is bleeding uncontrollably from her uterus and has multiple infections known to be common causes of fetal death. She is not offered any form of emergency treatment and is not even given a blood transfusion until hours later, at which point she is severely anaemic. She delivers a stillborn baby.

The hospital staff, who did not provide any other form of emergency treatment, later perform a drug test on the mother without her consent and find traces of methamphetamine. Methamphetamine use is associated with adverse effects during pregnancy, but is not a particularly common cause of stillbirth. It is hypothetically possible that this woman's child would have lived had she not used methamphetamine, but the chances are impossible to determine with any accuracy and extremely small at best.

If an honest person, a person who genuinely believed in the concept of fetal personhood, were to approach this situation with a view to determining who is likely to be criminally liable, the answer is extremely obvious. As it is, the answer is still extremely obvious, but only because noone in their right mind expects honesty of these people. We all see through you, no matter whether you lie to yourself.
 
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tstorm823

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What if I told you that no person wants to throw themselves down a flight of stairs as a deliberate means of terminating their own pregnancy. I mean, that's probably true right? People die falling down the stairs, it's not a safe thing to do.
What if I told you that people act irrationally sometimes? What if you were the doctors or nurses in that situation who saw this woman, who believed she had taken potentially suicidal actions in order to abort her own pregnancy? Do you feel good just discharging her and sending her back to the life that inspired these actions?
You know this and understand it perfectly in regards to the only lives you value, you just expect everyone else to automatically trust and believe that pro-lifes are good people who would only act if there was some genuine reason.
You are aware that there is an entire justice system, one which requires a unanimous jury to convict, and it's not just the pro-life secret police coming to disappear people, right?
There are countless examples of it not being true, which you are willing to tolerate.
And yet you have none. You have zero examples of a miscarriage or stillbirth being the prima facie around which a case is formed. It's things like drug use, or literal confessions of guilt which start investigations. Find one example where a woman had a miscarriage or stillbirth without any evidence of wrongdoing and someone said "we should investigate to see if a crime was committed". Even just one example, I'd entertain your fear of the future. But that example doesn't exist.
Because, while it is very kind of you to provide a source pointing out the extremely obvious and well known fact that uterine infections can cause fetal death
Oh no, you can't read!
The hospital staff, who did not provide any other form of emergency treatment, later perform a drug test on the mother without her consent and find traces of methamphetamine.
I mean, maybe, but that's not the critical part. They tested the dead baby for drugs and found methamphetamine. The case wasn't "we found meth in her system, it must have killed the fetus." The case was "we found meth in the fetus, it probably killed the fetus."
 

Silvanus

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What if I told you that people act irrationally sometimes? What if you were the doctors or nurses in that situation who saw this woman, who believed she had taken potentially suicidal actions in order to abort her own pregnancy? Do you feel good just discharging her and sending her back to the life that inspired these actions?
Nobody is saying people in these vulnerable situations should be sent back without help.

What we're saying is that they shouldn't be charged with murder because of assumptions you or a DA make about their thought process. Would you feel good just throwing that vulnerable, potentially-suicidal woman into prison, denying her access to the care she may deeply need?

And yet you have none. You have zero examples of a miscarriage or stillbirth being the prima facie around which a case is formed.
!?! The case we're already discussing is one. Because she wasn't charged on a mere drug charge-- it was murder, remember, a charge solely focused on the stillbirth, and attributing malice to it.

What you mean is "there are zero examples where the DA hasn't assumed the cause of the stillbirth and used that to ascribe murder".
 

tstorm823

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Nobody is saying people in these vulnerable situations should be sent back without help.

What we're saying is that they shouldn't be charged with murder because of assumptions you or a DA make about their thought process. Would you feel good just throwing that vulnerable, potentially-suicidal woman into prison, denying her access to the care she may deeply need?
Sometimes prison is the thing people need to set themselves straight.
 

tstorm823

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You believe an extended stay in prison is the right environment to assist someone suffering from addiction or suicidal?

You cannot expect anybody to believe you have the person's wellbeing at heart after saying that.
I can expect that. Some people will understand.
 

Buyetyen

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I can expect that. Some people will understand.
Yeah, sadists, sociopaths, religious zealots, and other various and sundry reprobates for whom the cruelty is the point. You're in good company.

Speaking as someone who has contended with suicidal ideation more than once, you make shit up dude. You really do.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Jesus came back from the dead so let's abort all the babies and hope for miracles. If the evangelicals don't go alomg with this they're cowards!
I mean, if you want to piss off the right kind of dumbass, you could point out that aborted fetuses go to heaven, so logically speaking the worst thing you can do to an immortal soul is have it be born and risk it not doing that.
 

Absent

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I mean, if you want to piss off the right kind of dumbass, you could point out that aborted fetuses go to heaven, so logically speaking the worst thing you can do to an immortal soul is have it be born and risk it not doing that.
I don't know how it is in english, but in french, the euphemism for women who performed abortions was "faiseuses d'anges" (angels makers). So there's that.

But it's still a sin. For the theocracy that the christian conservatives intend to put in place, abortion is simply murder because 1) all beings get a magical complete soul at conception, and 2) babies and children are innocent beings that only get corrupted by sin later. So even 1 minute after fertilization, an abortion is the murder of an innocent. Plus there's the injunction of nativism : the purpose of the christian sect is to grow in power by making babies, as demographic power was the surest power in their time (conservatives still freak out about stagnating or decreasing birth rate, because it's all a competition against the neighbour populations in general, and the "inferior races" in particular). And anything, ANYTHING, any argument beyond these magical and bellicose considerations is absolute pure wind. Pure dressing. Pure "anything goes" bullshit, word salad selected and validated solely based on "does it go in that direction or not".

That's why such threads are just fake dialogues, fake discussions, fake debates. Reality is pointless, what matter is magical representations and their rationalizations. And the sooner you realise the falsehood of intents behind pretend rational discussions, the sooner you stop wasting your time arguing. Faith is, by definition, "bad faith". It sanctifies a conclusion, and piles up anything on it.

And this goes for all aspects of all subjects. Transphobia and homophobia will keep being rationalized the same way, because they are the goal in itself. Transgender people are being denied existence, as the most total form of annihilation, and will be murdered if their existence cease to be deniable. There's no room for them, it is pre-decided for magical religious reasons that trump any reality, any scientific argument, any real life observation. It is the most absolute form of hatred. The refusal to aknowledge one's very existence. Absolute erasure. As an objective.

It is stupidity and evil erected as virtues, praised as faithfulness to dogma. You validate it by engaging with it as if it was an argument that could be countered by anything grounded in reality. It's circular, floats in the air, deliberately avoiding contact with real life. It preserves its toxicity like a treasure. It requires it. And it loves being dignified by answers that imply "I consider you are reasoning, since I present arguments to you". It nourishes the maquerade.

People are way too patient with this sort of negation of humanity.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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...the purpose of the christian sect is to grow in power by making babies, as demographic power was the surest power in their time (conservatives still freak out about stagnating or decreasing birth rate, because it's all a competition against the neighbour populations in general, and the "inferior races" in particular).
Which is simply an extension of the ancient tribal instinct of our proto-human ancestors to gather around the bonfire and plot to go kill that other tribe and take their stuff before they kill us and take our stuff.

Some of us evolved past that backwards, primitive instinct. And some of us just replaced the bonfire with a cross.
 
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