Ukraine

Absent

And twice is the only way to live.
Jan 25, 2023
1,594
1,557
118
Country
Switzerland
Gender
The boring one
It should indeed be eradicated-- though of course Russia itself stockpiles and uses it itself, so this is yet more hypocrisy.
I'm not sure that's an excellent excuse if it's meant as one. The moral high ground will lower pretty fast if Ukraine's long term poisoning is due to the UK, be it partially or completely.
 

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Feb 9, 2008
11,286
7,082
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male
On the lighter side of the news,


Russia is now deploying Pensioner/Senior Citizen tanks to Ukraine AKA the T-54/T-55.

All is well in Ba Sing Se. There is No war in Ba Sing Se.

The Dream of the T-34 being deployed to Ukraine to serve the Motherland again is one step closer to reality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CM156

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,154
3,894
118
On the lighter side of the news,


Russia is now deploying Pensioner/Senior Citizen tanks to Ukraine AKA the T-54/T-55.

All is well in Ba Sing Se. There is No war in Ba Sing Se.

The Dream of the T-34 being deployed to Ukraine to serve the Motherland again is one step closer to reality.
There's a fair few of those around in use by militaries across the world. I'm led to believe that "obsolete" tanks can still be quite useful, especially if they are given the right upgrades, mostly to targeting systems. Even in the 21st century, you don't want to be somewhere that's coming under tank fire, even if the tank is older than your grandfather.

Usual caveats about Russia and how it may or may not take full advantage of the vehicle's capabilities.
 

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Feb 9, 2008
11,286
7,082
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male
There's a fair few of those around in use by militaries across the world. I'm led to believe that "obsolete" tanks can still be quite useful, especially if they are given the right upgrades, mostly to targeting systems. Even in the 21st century, you don't want to be somewhere that's coming under tank fire, even if the tank is older than your grandfather.

Usual caveats about Russia and how it may or may not take full advantage of the vehicle's capabilities.
Sure, but the steady fielding of older and older tanks over the past year is a noted pattern for Russia, especially in light of its confirmed (likely undercounted) tank losses.

Yadda yadda the usual questions of how well these 70 year old tanks have been maintained in storage and if they're getting any optics or armor upgrades.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,154
3,894
118
Sure, but the steady fielding of older and older tanks over the past year is a noted pattern for Russia, especially in light of its confirmed (likely undercounted) tank losses.

Yadda yadda the usual questions of how well these 70 year old tanks have been maintained in storage and if they're getting any optics or armor upgrades.
Oh, absolutely, in context, this is likely not to end well for the tankers and could be seen as a sign of desperation, but in a more general sense, pulling even really old equipment out of storage to replace heavy losses isn't that bad. Not ideal by any means, but doesn't have to be catastrophic, but will be in this case.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
1,945
806
118
They have all those old tanks and all of them are only getting older. If they don't use them now, when they need tanks, they will never us them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Feb 9, 2008
11,286
7,082
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male
They have all those old tanks and all of them are only getting older. If they don't use them now, when they need tanks, they will never us them.
USSR: But those tanks were for an emergency and they were supposed to allow sustainment for 5 years!

Seriously, if they're pulling 1950's tanks now. a year into the conflict, at what point are they effectively out of tanks to pull that have any reasonable expectation of refurbishment and repair?
 
Last edited:

RhombusHatesYou

Surreal Estate Agent
Mar 21, 2010
7,595
1,914
118
Between There and There.
Country
The Wide, Brown One.
Seriously, if they're pulling 1950's tanks now. a year into the conflict, at what point are they effectively out of tanks to pull that have any reasonable expectation of refurbishment and repair?
"Yo, Jinping! Mate. Vlad, here. You wouldn't happen to have a few divisions worth of old tanks sitting around would you?"
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,154
3,894
118
USSR: But those tanks were for an emergency and they were supposed to allow sustainment for 5 years!

Seriously, if they're pulling 1950's tanks now. a year into the conflict, at what point are they effectively out of tanks to pull that have any reasonable expectation of refurbishment and repair?
Hmm...while making a modern MBT isn't something you can do in a hurry, if you're allowing for 1950s quality of tanks, in theory they might be able to start producing new versions of those (given the war is over a year old, if they saw the need early and starting preparations a while ago). Usual thing about how that might not be a bad idea if run by competent people, (emphasise not calling the w things tanks, but "fire support vehicles" or something), but it probably wouldn't be, and they'd need to be on the ball a bit to even get that rolling.
 

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Feb 9, 2008
11,286
7,082
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male
Hmm...while making a modern MBT isn't something you can do in a hurry, if you're allowing for 1950s quality of tanks, in theory they might be able to start producing new versions of those (given the war is over a year old, if they saw the need early and starting preparations a while ago). Usual thing about how that might not be a bad idea if run by competent people, (emphasise not calling the w things tanks, but "fire support vehicles" or something), but it probably wouldn't be, and they'd need to be on the ball a bit to even get that rolling.
True though the downside is that there's finite factory capacity(and whatever time needed to retool) so whatever they're using for T-54's can't be used to make T-90's(which is honestly what they probably should be focusing on considering it's a 30 year old design). And of course logistical concerns because they have to make more parts to maintain those new T-54's and transport them.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,154
3,894
118
True though the downside is that there's finite factory capacity(and whatever time needed to retool) so whatever they're using for T-54's can't be used to make T-90's(which is honestly what they probably should be focusing on considering it's a 30 year old design). And of course logistical concerns because they have to make more parts to maintain those new T-54's and transport them.
The logistics, certainly, is an issue, I'm not sure about the factory capability. Now, sure, if they are making tanks, they obviously aren't using those factories for something else, but (without knowing much about Russia's manufacturing capabilities), you don't need a factory that's equipped to make more modern tanks if you are only making something from decades earlier. For example, modern MBT armour is a lot fancier than the simple steel plate that used to be used. By comparison, the British Sten Gun in WW2 could be make in a simple garage workshop, and didn't necessarily need to tie up space in a well equipped factory.

Now, there's probably components of modern tanks than can be made in factories without sophisticated machines, though.
 

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,208
118
If you're allowing for 1950s quality of tanks, in theory they might be able to start producing new versions of those (given the war is over a year old, if they saw the need early and starting preparations a while ago).
I think it's vastly more problematic than that. There still won't be the production facilities in existence, nor even for all the kit that goes in them, unless stuff for more modern tanks still in production can be retrofitted into a T-54/55. And if you need to build a whole new set of production facilities, why on earth build them for a 70-year-old, hopelessly obsolete model when you could just expand facilities for a 30-year-old model?

T-54/55s.... Christ. Anyone Russians crewing one of those had better hope there aren't any Ukrainian tanks in the area.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Feb 9, 2008
11,286
7,082
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male
The logistics, certainly, is an issue, I'm not sure about the factory capability. Now, sure, if they are making tanks, they obviously aren't using those factories for something else, but (without knowing much about Russia's manufacturing capabilities), you don't need a factory that's equipped to make more modern tanks if you are only making something from decades earlier. For example, modern MBT armour is a lot fancier than the simple steel plate that used to be used. By comparison, the British Sten Gun in WW2 could be make in a simple garage workshop, and didn't necessarily need to tie up space in a well equipped factory.

Now, there's probably components of modern tanks than can be made in factories without sophisticated machines, though.
But if you plan to run parallel production lines you need more factories to do it, and thus more parts as well, which means you're complicating your logistics train now because you have to have a new set of parts to supply.

Worse, the T-54 doesn't use the same ammo as the newer tanks which means now you have to manufacture a different type of ammo which also has to be transported. And considering the barrel is smaller(and rifled) you absolutely have to be manufacturing that smaller ammo for the older tanks(which also means it's probably not going to be as effective against other tanks as the newer stuff). All of which needs to be shoved into trains and, far more limiting, into trucks once they reach those just out of HIMARS reach areas where Russia currently puts it's ammo dumps to keep them from being blown up.
 
Last edited:

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,154
3,894
118
I think it's vastly more problematic than that. There still won't be the production facilities in existence, nor even for all the kit that goes in them, unless stuff for more modern tanks still in production can be retrofitted into a T-54/55. And if you need to build a whole new set of production facilities, why on earth build them for a 70-year-old, hopelessly obsolete model when you could just expand facilities for a 30-year-old model?
If (if) the Russians can build or expand factories for 30 year old stuff, then yeah, they shouldn't be mucking around with 70 year old stuff, but I'm not sure they can. The older stuff is probably a lot easier to get going in a hurry, they managed it (ok, even older designs) during WW2, pretty sure nobody could get things going as fast for modern tanks.

Worse, the T-54 doesn't use the same ammo as the newer tanks which means now you have to manufacture a different type of ammo which also has to be transported. And considering the barrel is smaller(and rifled) you absolutely have to be manufacturing that smaller ammo for the older tanks(which also means it's probably not going to be as effective against other tanks as the newer stuff). All of which needs to be shoved into trains and, far more limiting, into trucks once they reach those just out of HIMARS reach areas where Russia currently puts it's ammo dumps to keep them from being blown up.
Oh sure, they should standardise ammo. Though, not being as effective against modern tanks is only a problem if that's what you are going to use them against, which you really shouldn't. Usual caveat about them trying that anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,208
118
Oh sure, they should standardise ammo. Though, not being as effective against modern tanks is only a problem if that's what you are going to use them against, which you really shouldn't. Usual caveat about them trying that anyway.
In WW2 at least, tanks weren't generally used to oppose tanks: they were more used to make and exploit breakthroughs, or as a mobile response force in defence - this meant they were normally facing infantry formations. Where possible, tanks were generally to be opposed by anti-tank equipment (infantry-held, field guns and tank destroyers). I would imagine that to be the plan for restored T-54/55s, not to oppose modern tanks.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,154
3,894
118
In WW2 at least, tanks weren't generally used to oppose tanks: they were more used to make and exploit breakthroughs, or as a mobile response force in defence - this meant they were normally facing infantry formations. Where possible, tanks were generally to be opposed by anti-tank equipment (infantry-held, field guns and tank destroyers). I would imagine that to be the plan for restored T-54/55s, not to oppose modern tanks.
That would be the sensible way of doing it, however, given past events, not sure it would be the way things are done.
 

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,208
118
That would be the sensible way of doing it, however, given past events, not sure it would be the way things are done.
Well, you've certainly got a point there. The Russian military has not exactly demonstrated high levels of tactical and strategic accomplishment, or much regard for the preservation of its troops and equipment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

The Rogue Wolf

Stealthy Carnivore
Legacy
Nov 25, 2007
16,908
9,600
118
Stalking the Digital Tundra
Gender
✅
In WW2 at least, tanks weren't generally used to oppose tanks: they were more used to make and exploit breakthroughs, or as a mobile response force in defence - this meant they were normally facing infantry formations. Where possible, tanks were generally to be opposed by anti-tank equipment (infantry-held, field guns and tank destroyers). I would imagine that to be the plan for restored T-54/55s, not to oppose modern tanks.
The thing is that the enemy has to cooperate with this tactic, and not, say, send their tanks after yours.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,208
118
The thing is that the enemy has to cooperate with this tactic, and not, say, send their tanks after yours.
Well. Tanks have to work in units, and units can only be in one place at a time, so in theory aim the tank offensive somewhere where they won't face strong opposition. In a frontline as large as the Russia-Ukraine war, this should be doable - at least initially. Some sort of reaction force should arrive eventually, although this may take a few days. In smaller conflict zones (e.g. Arab-Israeli wars), tank on tank warfare was effectively guaranteed.