If DeSantis wins

[Silvanus]

I don't think much of the drag community has any interest in doing story hours for kids, and even those who do are unlikely to be inviting themselves to schools and libraries. I imagine the people running those facilities are the ones orchestrating the events, and its their intentions that matter. In the US, these things are frequently organized by activists, the drag queens are just being paid to be there, and the money often comes from public funds.

So why do you doubt that people who do drag have any interest in it? And why do you think library authorities are organising these events solely to piss people off, rather than just to provide the event?

You're making enormous leaps to ascribe malicious motivations to people you know nothing about. As far as I can tell, you just... seemingly can't comprehend that these performers and librarians might want to just do something for kids and the community. It's a damn bleak, kneejerk worldview.

 

[Casual Shinji]

It's ultimately pointless to reason with people like this.

It doesn't matter how clear you make it that kids aren't being groomed by the knowledge that gay and trans people exist, because to conservatives being gay or trans (or in drag) near a child is grooming by default. It doesn't matter if you tell them that teaching children about the dark history America has with slavery isn't telling white children they should hate themselves, because to conservatives teaching children about the history of slavery in America is by default hating/being a traitor to the white race.

 

[Ag3ma]

So why do you doubt that people who do drag have any interest in it?

Tstorm is just giving us an example of prejudice in action, though, isn't he? Attempting to judge individuals by assumed group characteristics.

All drag queens are about sex because he thinks drag is all about sex, and drag queens can't be interested in giving readings to children (without an ulterior motive) because most of them may not be interested in giving readings to children.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

And you don't see any issues putting sexual themes in front of children and saying "haha, look at the funny clown"? You don't see where the accusations of grooming come from in that?

It's only "sexual" in your sick, twisted, hyper-repressed view.

It's ultimately pointless to reason with people like this.

It doesn't matter how clear you make it that kids aren't being groomed by the knowledge that gay and trans people exist, because to conservatives being gay or trans (or in drag) near a child is grooming by default. It doesn't matter if you tell them that teaching children about the dark history America has with slavery isn't telling white children they should hate themselves, because to conservatives teaching children about the history of slavery in America is by default hating/being a traitor to the white race.

Tclown's view is that anything that offends him does so deliberately, as an attack on his very way of life, and therefore must be defeated.

 

[tstorm823]

Have you ever been to a drag club?

Nope.

It's only sexual because people like you deem it sexual, because feminine features, like a dress and make-up, are sexual in your eyes.

Drag queens are far, far more sexual than they are feminine.

you just... seemingly can't comprehend that these performers and librarians might want to just do something for kids and the community.

Do what for the community? What are the kids or community gaining from it, specifically what is gained that non-drag story hour would not provide?

It doesn't matter how clear you make it that kids aren't being groomed by the knowledge that gay and trans people exist.

Drag queens are neither necessarily gay nor trans, nor actually any letter of the LGBTQ+ list. Seeing a drag queen only shows you their sexuality if they tell you who they want to have sex with...

Tclown's view is that anything that offends him does so deliberately, as an attack on his very way of life, and therefore must be defeated.

I can give my view in the most concise way: the pride flag comes from the exact same human flaws as the confederate flag. If I said "the confederate flag isn't hateful, they're just proud of your heritage", you'd see the problem. Pride is hate, inherently.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Like I said, pointless.

 

[Silvanus]

Do what for the community? What are the kids or community gaining from it, specifically what is gained that non-drag story hour would not provide?

An added element of entertainment. The same purpose pageantry and dress-up have elsewhere.

You know dress-up storytimes have a long history in libraries, quite apart from drag. People dress up as playful, colourful characters like "reading wizard" or whatever and read stories.

Honestly, right now I'm just imagining you attending a fancy dress party and accusing everyone of having ulterior motives. "What do you gain from this, that a non-fancy-dress party could not provide!? What's your angle!?"

For those outside of the outrage mill, fun and colour are still possible. I feel a bit sorry for those who can't comprehend innocence and fun anymore.

I can give my view in the most concise way: the pride flag comes from the exact same human flaws as the confederate flag.

Slavery?

Because nobody here has a problem with a country's own flag. The confederate one is objectionable specifically because its inseparably connected with the fight to maintain slavery.

Pride is hate, inherently.

Bast almighty, what an utterly myopic, bleak worldview. Its like something a dystopian dictator would come out with. "Ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery, pride is hate".

I know the historic Catholic Church wanted us to all be self-hating, grovelling, eternally self-flagellating worms, incapable of feeling happiness in our own merits, but it's still so jarring to see that attitude in the modern day.

 

[Ag3ma]

Nope.

Yes, that makes sense.

If like me and probably several other people here you ever had gone to see a drag performance, you might have a somewhat different perspective.

 

[Bedinsis]

I don't think much of the drag community has any interest in doing story hours for kids, and even those who do are unlikely to be inviting themselves to schools and libraries.

You don't think people who enjoy putting on a performance in one way would enjoy performing in another?

 

[Kwak]

Yes, that makes sense.

If like me and probably several other people here you ever had gone to see a drag performance, you might have a somewhat different perspective.

I've seen them on television shows and movies, that's basically the same thing as having real-world experience of a subject.

 

[Ag3ma]

I've seen them on television shows and movies, that's basically the same thing as having real-world experience of a subject.

They may vary significantly. Traditional British drag seems to me to emphasise comedy/wit a lot more than the glamour-focused style Ru Paul has popularised.

 

[tstorm823]

Bast almighty, what an utterly myopic, bleak worldview. Its like something a dystopian dictator would come out with. "Ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery, pride is hate".

I know the historic Catholic Church wanted us to all be self-hating, grovelling, eternally self-flagellating worms, incapable of feeling happiness in our own merits, but it's still so jarring to see that attitude in the modern day.

You don't understand the premise. You can feel happiness in your own merits, in as much as you can feel joy that those merits exist at all. There's a quote out there I'm having trouble locating, that's something along the lines of "A humble man is one who can build the grandest, most beautiful cathedral and feel no more or less joy than if someone else had done it." It might have been C. S. Lewis, but Lewis had a lot to say on humility, so that doesn't help me verify. But Lewis also said of humility that an actually humble person is not the self-flagellating type. If you focus on how bad you are, and go around telling people you suck, that's still the same sin of pride. You are measuring your worth relative to others. Humility is understanding that your successes and failures don't change your worth as a person.

To be happy about your accomplishments can be a good thing if you're happy about the accomplishments. If, however, you are reveling in the fact that it was you that did it and not somebody else, that's a problematic mindset. That's thinking yourself more important than others. And that's the least offensive thing to be proud of. Pride in your identity is about the worst option, that's "this aspect of me makes me more important than others". Flying a flag of pride means "screw everyone else". That's what that means. That's where that comes from. It's a hate symbol, regardless of what the person is proud of.

 

[tstorm823]

You don't think people who enjoy putting on a performance in one way would enjoy performing in another?

Do you think people who enjoy reading to children are equally inclined to performing drag? Why would one be connected to the other?

 

[Absent]

Flying a flag of pride means "screw everyone else". That's what that means. That's where that comes from. It's a hate symbol, regardless of what the person is proud of.

 

[Cheetodust]

. That's where that comes from. It's a hate symbol, regardless of what the person is proud of.

jesus fuck you are a fully mask off disgusting hateful zealot.

 

[Ag3ma]

Yes, exactly.

 

[tstorm823]

A) Not every flag is about pride. I'm talking about two flags that the proponents of explicitly call symbols of pride.
B) As far as I can tell, that image isn't even a flag. Like, there are probably thousands of variations of Christian flags, image search just finds this as a stock image of a cross, why did you go with this?

jesus fuck you are a fully mask off disgusting hateful zealot.

Today I learned that Uncle Iroh is a fully mask off disgusting hateful zealot.

 

[Buyetyen]

View attachment 8622

Today I learned that Uncle Iroh is a fully mask off disgusting hateful zealot.

The comparison might work better if you wanted queer people to not feel shame for being who they are.

 

[Absent]

A) Not every flag is about pride. I'm talking about two flags that the proponents of explicitly call symbols of pride.

There are few flags that are as much about pride as a religious fundamentalist cult's, especially the christian one. And it's made all the more ridiculous by proclaiming its "humility" (as humans in front of their One True Real God of Theirs, just like any megalomaniac fanatic is "humble" in front of their dictator/messiah/guru) while fancying themselves the elected vessels of a purifying moral truth to violently impose to the rest of the planet.

Your permanent display of close-circuit sectarian vanity on these boards makes you the least appropriate person to complain about other people's pride in their own flags.

 

[Silvanus]

You don't understand the premise. You can feel happiness in your own merits, in as much as you can feel joy that those merits exist at all. There's a quote out there I'm having trouble locating, that's something along the lines of "A humble man is one who can build the grandest, most beautiful cathedral and feel no more or less joy than if someone else had done it." It might have been C. S. Lewis, but Lewis had a lot to say on humility, so that doesn't help me verify. But Lewis also said of humility that an actually humble person is not the self-flagellating type. If you focus on how bad you are, and go around telling people you suck, that's still the same sin of pride. You are measuring your worth relative to others. Humility is understanding that your successes and failures don't change your worth as a person.

To be happy about your accomplishments can be a good thing if you're happy about the accomplishments. If, however, you are reveling in the fact that it was you that did it and not somebody else, that's a problematic mindset. That's thinking yourself more important than others. And that's the least offensive thing to be proud of.

In short: if you do something good, don't feel good about yourself.

A bleak, grey existence.

Pride in your identity is about the worst option, that's "this aspect of me makes me more important than others". Flying a flag of pride means "screw everyone else". That's what that means. That's where that comes from. It's a hate symbol, regardless of what the person is proud of.

Talk about missing the premise.

Talk to anyone actually flying/wearing a Pride flag, and they'll readily inform you: it doesn't mean anything of the sort. It means being comfortable in your own skin and able to lead a happy life with the characteristics you have.

Stop ascribing motives to others that they never expressed, and actually listen to them if you want to learn about their own thought processes, for once.