If DeSantis wins

TheMysteriousGX

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If being gay it's just a choice, why doesn't Tstorm choose to be gay, and thus prove it?
I mean based on some of his comments, it looks like he's a bisexual guy who's chosen to be in a monogamous relationship with a woman. He's just got that screwed up in his head as meaning he chose to be straight instead of choosing to be gay, so because his experiences are universal other gay people must be making that choice.
 

Thaluikhain

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I mean based on some of his comments, it looks like he's a bisexual guy who's chosen to be in a monogamous relationship with a woman. He's just got that screwed up in his head as meaning he chose to be straight instead of choosing to be gay, so because his experiences are universal other gay people must be making that choice.
Huh, I didn't get that impression myself.

If so, my snarky (and unoriginal) comment loses it's bite.
 

Ag3ma

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Question that I never see an answer for, and won't in this case either because I have him on ignore: If being gay is a choice, why are so many people choosing an option that will make so many people hate them for existing?
Because Satan has tempted them, and they are being punished by God for their sin.
 

tstorm823

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To attain beneficial outcomes.

To believe that a kid chooses to be gay is to believe kids choose to invite onto themselves bullying, harassment and assault, choose to be thrown out of their own homes, choose to endure years of prejudice and repression, choose to be murdered and arrested in dozens of countries, and to drastically reduce their own chances of finding a partner. It's one of the most brainless, foolish positions one can hold. Don't be that monumentally dense.
"To believe that a person chooses to be fat is to believe they invite onto themselves bullying, harassment, and assault, choose to suffer from the subsequent ill health, choose to endure years of prejudice and self-loathing, [I concede there isn't parallel here for being executed in the Middle East], and to drastically reduce their own chances of finding a partner."

Is a fat person born that way, fated to that existence from birth? Or do they (we) choose the behavior that leads to that end result? If you could flip a switch and just choose an end result independent of your actions, they're would likely be few gay people and even fewer fat people, but that's not how life works. Some decisions are made in a moment, some are acted out over a lifetime and are exceptionally difficult to change course part way. You're not going to pretend someone addicted to nicotine was genetically determined to do so, no matter how monumentally idiotic it would be to choose that addiction, it's still free choice that put the person there.
 

Silvanus

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"To believe that a person chooses to be fat is to believe they invite onto themselves bullying, harassment, and assault, choose to suffer from the subsequent ill health, choose to endure years of prejudice and self-loathing, [I concede there isn't parallel here for being executed in the Middle East], and to drastically reduce their own chances of finding a partner."

Is a fat person born that way, fated to that existence from birth? Or do they (we) choose the behavior that leads to that end result? If you could flip a switch and just choose an end result independent of your actions, they're would likely be few gay people and even fewer fat people, but that's not how life works. Some decisions are made in a moment, some are acted out over a lifetime and are exceptionally difficult to change course part way. You're not going to pretend someone addicted to nicotine was genetically determined to do so, no matter how monumentally idiotic it would be to choose that addiction, it's still free choice that put the person there.
Stunningly ill-judged comment right here.

Someone's weight is the result of countless smaller decisions-- diet, exercise, etc-- that, in aggregate, lead to that outcome. You have a direct link between them and the contributory effect on the larger problem. What, exactly, are the smaller decisions that, in aggregate, cause someone to be gay? Is there any causative decision you can demonstrate?

And each of those smaller decisions-- eating too much, exercising too little-- has a transitory personal benefit. Comfort and enjoyment. And each of those smaller decisions does not invite the negative effects, either; those negative impacts are only felt once greater weight has been attained, which is precisely why it's easy to overlook them when one is indulging to begin with.

...so for the lone gay kid in a school, or the gay guy in a repressive society, what's this transitory benefit they're receiving in the short term? If they express themselves for even a moment they invite death, disownment and harassment; its a risk of life and limb to be open. In every respect-- both long term and short term-- it would be easier and more comfortable otherwise.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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You know, for all of the extremely relevant and good reasons to try and dismantle the Disney Corporation, "they stopped donating to my political party after they got found out supporting our anti-gay bills and their creative staff rebelled" is just not it
 

meiam

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So at first glance, Disney have a slam dunk case of 1st amendment, its pretty easy to prove since DeSantis literally said he was doing it as a form of retaliation. Problem is, if every person in the legal system just decide that they're okay with ignoring the constitution just because they disagree with Disney here, DeSantis could very well win here. And I doubt the 2nd amendment "protection against governement tyrany" people are going to do anything about it.
 

Cheetodust

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"To believe that a person chooses to be fat is to believe they invite onto themselves bullying, harassment, and assault, choose to suffer from the subsequent ill health, choose to endure years of prejudice and self-loathing, [I concede there isn't parallel here for being executed in the Middle East], and to drastically reduce their own chances of finding a partner."

Is a fat person born that way, fated to that existence from birth? Or do they (we) choose the behavior that leads to that end result? If you could flip a switch and just choose an end result independent of your actions, they're would likely be few gay people and even fewer fat people, but that's not how life works. Some decisions are made in a moment, some are acted out over a lifetime and are exceptionally difficult to change course part way. You're not going to pretend someone addicted to nicotine was genetically determined to do so, no matter how monumentally idiotic it would be to choose that addiction, it's still free choice that put the person there.
We get it. If you touched a dick once you'd never be able to stop yourself. Cock mad til your dyin days you'd be. Cock cock cock cock cock. Cock in the morning. Cock in the afternoon. Cock in the evening. Morning noon and night with the cock. Absolute fiend for the cock.
 

Baffle

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We get it. If you touched a dick once you'd never be able to stop yourself. Cock mad til your dyin days you'd be. Cock cock cock cock cock. Cock in the morning. Cock in the afternoon. Cock in the evening. Morning noon and night with the cock. Absolute fiend for the cock.
I'm the same but with fig rolls.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Imagine being such a chode that people are rooting for Disney's Lawyers. And this prick thought he could take on Trump. I guess he only *looks* smarter

 
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tstorm823

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And each of those smaller decisions-- eating too much, exercising too little-- has a transitory personal benefit. Comfort and enjoyment. And each of those smaller decisions does not invite the negative effects, either; those negative impacts are only felt once greater weight has been attained, which is precisely why it's easy to overlook them when one is indulging to begin with.
Do you not think there is transitory benefit, comfort or enjoyment, to sexual gratification or personal relationships? There are hundreds or thousands of interactions in a persons life that could lead to one or both of those things, and thoughts associated with those interactions that may or may not be entertained. Thoughts and actions become repeated behavior, which becomes habit, which becomes a point of identity.
 

Elijin

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Do you not think there is transitory benefit, comfort or enjoyment, to sexual gratification or personal relationships? There are hundreds or thousands of interactions in a persons life that could lead to one or both of those things, and thoughts associated with those interactions that may or may not be entertained. Thoughts and actions become repeated behavior, which becomes habit, which becomes a point of identity.
Oh neat, we're implicitly endorsing conversion camp now. Stay classy tstorm!
 
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Silvanus

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Do you not think there is transitory benefit, comfort or enjoyment, to sexual gratification or personal relationships?
Of course-- which are much more easily attained by straight people. Being gay can drastically limit one's prospects in those areas (and even sometimes imperils the relationships one already has with friends and family). Yet people are still gay, even those without the opportunities to find a relationship or sexual gratification that they'd have if they were straight.

There are hundreds or thousands of interactions in a persons life that could lead to one or both of those things, and thoughts associated with those interactions that may or may not be entertained. Thoughts and actions become repeated behavior, which becomes habit, which becomes a point of identity.
So in short, no, you cannot point to any actual causative decision as we can with weight. You can merely speculate in the very vaguest terms, with nothing solid or detailed to show for it, and you expect me to take that more seriously than my own lived experience, the lived experience of all the queer people I know, and the testimony of the wider community as well.
 
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tstorm823

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Oh neat, we're implicitly endorsing conversion camp now. Stay classy tstorm!
For you to draw that conclusion, you are acting under the premise that gay is better off gone, and the reason not to have conversion camps is because they can't achieve their designed purpose. "We only suffer having gay people because there's no other option" is a hell of a take.
Being gay can drastically limit one's prospects in those areas
If you're going for maximum body count, sure, but if you're only looking for a single partner, sometimes a same sex partner is going to be more expedient, depending on circumstance.
(and even sometimes imperils the relationships one already has with friends and family).
This could honestly go both ways, as the sort of family that throws you to the curb is probably already not a healthy relationship. One of the most religious families I've ever met not only took their son back in after he came out (they didn't kick him out, he moved out as an adult and then came back), they took in his partner as well.
So in short, no, you cannot point to any actual causative decision as we can with weight. You can merely speculate in the very vaguest terms, with nothing solid or detailed to show for it, and you expect me to take that more seriously than my own lived experience, the lived experience of all the queer people I know, and the testimony of the wider community as well.
I mean, the more detailed I get, the more speculative it gets. I can point to the well-known trend of late-teen to early 20s girls going through their bi or lesbian phase (the very concept of "experimenting" implying a rational decision making process), and while most of society makes jokes about it being some sort of fake rebellious streak, I can't help but notice that's exactly the age range where men are objectively terrible. Choosing to be with women over a 20yo man seems exceptionally rational to me. I could point to men with particularly effeminate tendencies partnering with men, and while 99% of femininity and masculinity are arbitrary cultural things that are in no way inherent to the sexes, those gender roles are complementary like the sexes, so there is a logic to someone of feminine traits seeking out a complementary masculine partner. We could rationalize 1000 reasons why someone may choose something and still get nowhere close to explaining everyone, but at minimum it would be a better perspective than "nobody would ever choose that!"
 

Silvanus

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If you're going for maximum body count, sure, but if you're only looking for a single partner, sometimes a same sex partner is going to be more expedient, depending on circumstance.
Yet its common to be the only out gay kid in a school or community. Or to not know any others. Yet people still are gay in those situations.

You have dozens of countries in which even attempting to find that single same-sex partner is lethally dangerous, while finding an opposite-sex partner would be inarguably more feasible. Yet people are still gay in those situations.

This could honestly go both ways, as the sort of family that throws you to the curb is probably already not a healthy relationship. One of the most religious families I've ever met not only took their son back in after he came out (they didn't kick him out, he moved out as an adult and then came back), they took in his partner as well.
Cool anecdote. Meanwhile, homelessness rates are significantly higher for gay people due to disownment.

Of course it's not a healthy relationship for love to be conditional on the harmless characteristics of the child. Yet for millions of kids, that relationship is the only lifeline they have, or the only guarantee of a home and support network. Yet people are still gay in those situations.

I mean, the more detailed I get, the more speculative it gets. I can point to the well-known trend of late-teen to early 20s girls going through their bi or lesbian phase (the very concept of "experimenting" implying a rational decision making process)
Stop, no, that doesn't imply the people are deciding what their sexuality is. It implies they're finding out how they feel and what works for them.

When a scientist conducts an experiment, do you think that term implies they're "deciding" which outcome they'd prefer? No, they're trying something out to see what the response is. The nature of that response isn't a result of their decision.

and while most of society makes jokes about it being some sort of fake rebellious streak, I can't help but notice that's exactly the age range where men are objectively terrible. Choosing to be with women over a 20yo man seems exceptionally rational to me.
...its also the age range of raging hormones, which directly explains both of those upticks.

I could point to men with particularly effeminate tendencies partnering with men, and while 99% of femininity and masculinity are arbitrary cultural things that are in no way inherent to the sexes, those gender roles are complementary like the sexes, so there is a logic to someone of feminine traits seeking out a complementary masculine partner.
People who don't fit the traditional expectations of their sex are more likely to be comfortable with gender-transgressive behaviour, yes.

We could rationalize 1000 reasons why someone may choose something and still get nowhere close to explaining everyone, but at minimum it would be a better perspective than "nobody would ever choose that!"
That's not really the argument I made, and you know it. I didn't say "nobody would ever..." -- I'm sure that if it were a choice, some people would.

What I said that even in situations in which it is overwhelmingly beneficial to be straight, in every conceivable respect, and being gay doesn't provide any expedience at all... People are still gay.

And then when they get out of those situations, and can be open, they overwhelmingly report that they felt the attraction all along, but couldn't act on it or be open. They had to hide it. But the feelings were still there.

And in that context, the "choice" argument makes zero sense whatsoever.

But all this is aside from the fact that gay people overwhelmingly are telling you they never made the choices, and you can't point to a single causative decision, just complete speculation.
 

tstorm823

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What I said that even in situations in which it is overwhelmingly beneficial to be straight, in every conceivable respect, and being gay doesn't provide any expedience at all... People are still gay.
Those situations are imaginary. Nothing is ever beneficial in every conceivable respect. Any good Magic player could tell you "strictly better" is never 100% true, and that's in a designed, deterministic rules engine. Reality is way less defined than that.