Fox and Dominion settle for $788 million

Ag3ma

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Well, if you like...
Iraq was a clusterfuck, but frankly, it was the government that did the lying, not the press. Whatever you want to say about Corbyn, yes Labour most certainly did have some sort of problem with antisemitism, even if it was internal process dealing with it. And you know what? As leader, the buck stops at Corbyn's desk and there's some truth and point in there.

These may involve bias, exaggerated confidence, foolhardiness and many other sins, but none involve a major media organisation simply bare-facedly pushing stories it knows perfectly well to be (and is internally saying so) completely false.

Then, in a Tstorm like gambit just to try to prove how feeble your point is, you reach back over a century. It's like you can't try hard enough to say "I don't really have a good point here".

There are all sorts of ways you can make a point about the news media being deeply flawed, but it doesn't have to be by trivialising their worst excesses because you'd rather cook up some unutterably tedious shit to be the big contrarian I am. Because all that really achieves is letting the media off the hook for their worst excesses.
 
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tstorm823

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Then, in a Tstorm like gambit just to try to prove how feeble your point is, you reach back over a century. It's like you can't try hard enough to say "I don't really have a good point here".
If my name must be associated with having literal centuries of support for a point, I'll let it stand.
 
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Eacaraxe

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Iraq was a clusterfuck, but frankly, it was the government that did the lying, not the press.
Bullshit.



It wasn't the Bush admin that censured and suppressed critical voices, failed to present anti-war perspectives for the sake of impartial reporting, and go so far as to deplatform and blacklist Bush critics and war skeptics. That was the media. It wasn't the Bush admin that put exclusively pro-war voices on air, and write blank checks for pro-war op-eds, that was the media. It wasn't the Bush administration that refused to report intelligence refuting pro-war claims, that was already public knowledge by way of leaks and declassification, nor the counterarguments against the war -- specifically, Iraq's lack of WMD's, its lack of attempting to procure WMD's, and the lack of connection between Hussein and Osama bin Laden (in fact, it was known to political and policy elites Hussein and bin Laden were enemies) -- some of which existed as far back as skepticism towards the necessity of Desert Storm. That, as well, was the media.

And I'm not even talking about WSJ or Fox News. I'm talking about NYT, WashPo, The Atlantic, MSNBC, and CNN.

Reporters, editors, producers, and executives alike knew full well the arguments for and against the war, knew the intelligence, and knew the case for going to war was entirely false. And, the press chose to not only make it anyways, but frame those who called it for what it was based on information that was public knowledge as ignorant, extremist, conspiracy theorists, or worst of all, traitorous. That is the textbook definition of lying.

Unequivocally, bullshit.

Whatever you want to say about Corbyn, yes Labour most certainly did have some sort of problem with antisemitism, even if it was internal process dealing with it. And you know what? As leader, the buck stops at Corbyn's desk and there's some truth and point in there.

These may involve bias, exaggerated confidence, foolhardiness and many other sins, but none involve a major media organisation simply bare-facedly pushing stories it knows perfectly well to be (and is internally saying so) completely false.
You do understand a major part of the Labour leaks were memos and chatlogs specifically between Blairites and the press, collaborating on stories they knew full well to be false and constructing a narrative based upon those false stories, and openly discussing it as such? Shit, they were hiring consultants and astroturfing anti-Corbyn protests, and collaborating with the press on how to report on their astroturfed, fake, protests.

But, you are technically right in that there was widespread antisemitism among Labour. You know, if you accept the definition of "antisemitism" as adopted by the NEC which defined any criticism of Israel, Israeli politicians, or Israeli foreign or domestic policy as such, regardless of context or content. But otherwise, the actual antisemitism found was actually coming from the Blairites...but not that you'd know unless you followed the leaks, or in fact the EHRC report, as opposed to the press' deliberate misreporting on either.

Again, this is the textbook definition of lying.

Then, in a Tstorm like gambit just to try to prove how feeble your point is, you reach back over a century. It's like you can't try hard enough to say "I don't really have a good point here".
Right, pointing out the single most famous instance of yellow journalism and journalistic malpractice in modern history -- the very one that popularized the term "yellow journalism", which is considered the advent of post-Industrial Revolution propaganda -- is "a Tstorm like gambit". It was only one of the biggest events that shaped 20th Century North and South American (hell, global) history, that had ramifications which continue today, after all. This is like having a conversation about the Cold War and mutually-assured destruction, and saying Hiroshima is irrelevant.

Utterly fucking laughable.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Well then, I guess they've all been sued for $800 billion for defamation.

Oh, wait.
We know for a fact that other networks report things while saying explicitly in private that they know they aren't true and don't believe the things they say. Because being wrong is different to lying.
Doesn't change the fact that the media constantly lies regardless which network you watch. 'Member WMDs? 'Member RussiaGate? Or like Don Lemon saying one of the more recent hurricanes was stronger because of climate change (and the meteorolist he said it to was like "nope"). Anything that's cited as a conspiracy theory tends to be true a few months or years later. Government doctors can't even tell the truth on TV like the one doctor on 60 minutes that said obesity is mainly caused by genetics earlier this year. I guess we're all mutants now (but without the cool powers) if our genes have changed so much in less than a 100 years that we're obese because of genetics.



Nevermind. We own Dominion our graduate.
Carlson didn't even push the election stuff that much, he said "we don't know". Hannity pushed on the election stuff way more.

That biatch has no room to talk. He's made money off plenty of people on saying "what they want to hear!". Screw off you biatch in a box stand. Now why don't you go off and sign your master's shoes?
That's what all the major networks do is just say shit that people want to hear.


There was that one interview Jordan Klepper did at a Trump rally. He showed people the testimony of Trump Jr. and Ivanka talking about their dad's plans for Jan 6th. And the overwhelming reaction? Lizard clones used by Jews. No joke, that's what they thought. Mind controlled lizard clones of the Trump kids to make him look bad.
That's an easier thing to believe than they were hoodwinked by a con artist for the last 7 years. Because once you admit Trump lied and you fall for dumb shit easily...what's next? Did the Youth Pastor who pinkie pie swore he didn't rape your daughter when you found him naked in her bed lie too? Maybe Jesus didn't say to disown your Gay son. Maybe that black guy you roughed up in '62 for dating a white woman didn't deserve it?
Once Trump supporters come to the realization they have shit judgement and are easily tricked, it'll be like opening a Dam the amount of terrible shit they did throughout their lives, having been easily tricked because of their shit judgement. Never trust people who are constantly going to church and revivals and feel the need to proselytize. What are they doing constantly that makes them feel like their soul is in jeopardy?
And to think the other side doesn't fall for the same lies and dumb shit too is just as delusional as believing in lizard clones. Sure maybe they are being fooled by an obvious evil cartoon character, and the other side is being fooled by the wizard of Oz hardly makes it any better?

Also, Jordan Klepper segments like that are literally doing the thing that you hate Fox News for. He only shows the ridiculous side of right to disguise the fact that most of the time opposing right side actually has a valid point. Then, you think your side is right and you're just fighting against stupid people. Fox is the mustachioed cartoon villain and Klepper is the wizard of Oz. It's like seeing a Jay-walking segment and thinking everyone else is stupid because he only showed you the people that answered with the dumbest answers.

Iraq was a clusterfuck, but frankly, it was the government that did the lying, not the press.
The press not doing their actual job is basically as bad as lying. There was no valid intelligence for WMDs and if the press did their job, they would've reported that. If they are just going to report stories that sound good for their side without actually doing real journalism, it's the equivalent of lying, they just want plausible deniability.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Also, Jordan Klepper segments like that are literally doing the thing that you hate Fox News for. He only shows the ridiculous side of right to disguise the fact that most of the time opposing right side actually has a valid point. Then, you think your side is right and you're just fighting against stupid people. Fox is the mustachioed cartoon villain and Klepper is the wizard of Oz. It's like seeing a Jay-walking segment and thinking everyone else is stupid because he only showed you the people that answered with the dumbest answers.
One of these is on a channel called Comedy Central and the other is, ostensibly, a news broadcast organization

Just because the comedy watchers tend to have a better idea of what's actually going on than the news watchers doesn't change that
 
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Ag3ma

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The press not doing their actual job is basically as bad as lying. There was no valid intelligence for WMDs and if the press did their job, they would've reported that.
If you had a remotely realistic notion of how the world works, you wouldn't say something so profoundly ridiculous.The press do not have access to government intelligence services, and - normally - are not in the business of carrying out illegal actions to proactively acquire such information. That we know the WMD intelligence was a load of crap is overwhelmingly the work of post-invasion investigations. We can criticise the press for being excessively credulous, of course.

Reporters, editors, producers, and executives alike knew full well the arguments for and against the war, knew the intelligence, and knew the case for going to war was entirely false.
No, they did not. If you applied a smidgeon of critical analysis to your own sources, you'd have noticed that. Which makes you as bad as them: you can't really condemn others when you can't be bothered doing better yourself because it suits your agenda.

You do understand a major part of the Labour leaks were memos and chatlogs specifically between Blairites and the press, collaborating on stories they knew full well to be false and constructing a narrative based upon those false stories, and openly discussing it as such?
Yes. I also understand that they don't negate a great number of valid criticisms made of Corbyn and allies. It was a complex shitshow all around of vicious factional infighting and incompetence. The aim of the Corbyn cult is part revisionism, to point fingers hard enough at the shitty conduct of the "Blairite" wing in the hope everyone forgets their own sins. And those who want to believe hard enough, like you, fall for it. Again, you are just doing what you criticise.

After all, that's how easy it is. False confidence. Misplaced trust. Wanting to believe. Reporting before the facts are in (sometimes necessary, because things need to be reported before a whole picture can be known). I don't particularly esteem the media because I think they could do significantly better, but the excessive criticisms of fantasist amateurs are even worse.
 

Thaluikhain

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I disagree there, that Iraq had WMDs and that was the reason for the invasion was dubious in the extreme even at the time. There were a lot of credible sources saying that this was false (mind you, many media outlets did report on this), and that Bush/Blair/Howard had ulterior motives.

Not to mention, nations that have WMDs that can target Britain within 45 minutes have never been invaded by Britain, likely because of that fact.
 
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Ag3ma

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I disagree there, that Iraq had WMDs and that was the reason for the invasion was dubious in the extreme even at the time. There were a lot of credible sources saying that this was false (mind you, many media outlets did report on this), and that Bush/Blair/Howard had ulterior motives.

Not to mention, nations that have WMDs that can target Britain within 45 minutes have never been invaded by Britain, likely because of that fact.
I live in a different media ecosystem from Americans - I perceive that my country's media were much more skeptical about the WMD claims than the American media were, and the frailty of the WMD claims were widely discussed at the time.

But even in the USA where the press were more compliant, they still did not know. That's the point behind the Taibbi piece Eacaraxe added. It's got journalists saying that they gave the US government too much credibility and later realised they were wrong (or attempted to cover their tracks), not that they deliberately supported a story they knew to be flagrantly untrue.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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One of these is on a channel called Comedy Central and the other is, ostensibly, a news broadcast organization

Just because the comedy watchers tend to have a better idea of what's actually going on than the news watchers doesn't change that
That's as poor an argument as when Jon Stewart went on Crossfire and made the same argument.

They're all entertainment channels...

If you had a remotely realistic notion of how the world works, you wouldn't say something so profoundly ridiculous.The press do not have access to government intelligence services, and - normally - are not in the business of carrying out illegal actions to proactively acquire such information. That we know the WMD intelligence was a load of crap is overwhelmingly the work of post-invasion investigations. We can criticise the press for being excessively credulous, of course.
Having access to actual intelligence and being able to ask about said intelligence are 2 different things. Also, Iraq was completely disarmed ~10 years prior and Iraq was constantly being inspected. It's just plain common sense they didn't have WMDs. Not to mention there was 0 connection to 9/11. Same thing with RussiaGate, there was 0 evidence of that and STILL the left writes articles claiming RussiaGate was not a hoax. What's the big difference between the left saying the election was stolen and the right saying the election was stolen? I bet more lefties think Russia interfered with the 2016 election than righties think the 2020 election was stolen.
 

Ag3ma

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Also, Iraq was completely disarmed ~10 years prior and Iraq was constantly being inspected. It's just plain common sense they didn't have WMDs.
No, it wasn't completely disarmed. That's why it still had an army in 2002 despite an arms embargo. As for the WMDs, your argument is similar to claiming that no company ever commits fraud because its accounts are scrutinised by auditors.

Same thing with RussiaGate, there was 0 evidence of that and STILL the left writes articles claiming RussiaGate was not a hoax. What's the big difference between the left saying the election was stolen and the right saying the election was stolen?
That Russia attempted to sway the 2016 election is not seriously disputed. What's unclear and probably unknowable is how much difference that interference made.
 
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Kwak

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SilentPony

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And to think the other side doesn't fall for the same lies and dumb shit too is just as delusional as believing in lizard clones. Sure maybe they are being fooled by an obvious evil cartoon character, and the other side is being fooled by the wizard of Oz hardly makes it any better?
Everyone always says that. Or at least "both sides" people who think its what smart people say say that. Any evidence? One side believes in lizard clones, the other side believes in...climate change? One side believes so many Jewish Cuban zombies voted in Florida they needed to storm the capitol and assassinate the Vice President and the other side believes...gay people have a right to marry.
Yeah. I can see how both sides are equally bad.
 

Ag3ma

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Everyone always says that. Or at least "both sides" people who think its what smart people say say that.
It is undoubtedly wise to remember that no individual or faction has a monopoly on moral behaviour.

But is stupid to think that because both sides do things wrong, there is necessarily moral equivalence between them.
 

SilentPony

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It is undoubtedly wise to remember that no individual or faction has a monopoly on moral behaviour.

But is stupid to think that because both sides do things wrong, there is necessarily moral equivalence between them.
See...I just. I mean yes, you are 100% correct. No one group is perfect, as groups are people, and people are inherently not perfect. No one is Captain America, no matter how hard we try, and a good 50% of us don't think Steve Rodgers is all that good.

Its just when it comes to politics, Democrats vs Republicans, I struggle to find anything the Democrats want to do that is wrong. Universal basic health care? Sure. LGBTQXYZ+ rights and medical privileges? Can do. Defund the police? Yes, Creve Coure Missouri police don't need a BearCat assault transport. Restructure and adapt police recruitment and training? Yes please, the Chesterfield valley in 2023 is not 2004 Al-Faluja, we don't need PTSD riddled Navy SEALS on patrol. Shore up Democracy and re-draw district maps to allow for a better representation of the population? Sounds like a plan. Reparations for centuries of racial and cultural harm to African Americans? If that's what they want, I'm all for it. Increase the tax on corporations and billionaires? Great! Fight climate change? About damn time. Medically safe abortion for women who chose to have it? Their body, their choice. Teach African history in school? Why not?

Once you break it down, issue to issue, its really hard to justify the "both parties" point of view. Sure, you'll find some super far left wacko on some super obscure podcast say something dumb like "all white people are racists" or "all people are gay, they just don't know it." and while that's fringe and stupid, its nowhere close to the mainstream Republican lawmakers real-time tweeting the location of Democrat lawmakers during an active coup.
 
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Ag3ma

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Its just when it comes to politics, Democrats vs Republicans, I struggle to find anything the Democrats want to do that is wrong.
I suspect a lot of "both sidesism" comes from people who are disenchanted with politics - no-one pleases them, so they become completely cynical. For some people who recognise their preferred party has colossal sins, it's a way of absolving themselves for continuing to vote for that party. In some cases, it's a trite way of seeming clever. And then some people are just grotesquely delusional.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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They really, really aren't
You think CNN or FOX aren't entertainment channels?

Pop songs from the 80s were written with that notion, it's not some new or edge-y take.

No, it wasn't completely disarmed. That's why it still had an army in 2002 despite an arms embargo. As for the WMDs, your argument is similar to claiming that no company ever commits fraud because its accounts are scrutinised by auditors.



That Russia attempted to sway the 2016 election is not seriously disputed. What's unclear and probably unknowable is how much difference that interference made.
And what country in the modern age has ever had WMDs that were unknown to intelligence agencies? Even how closed off North Korea is, we know a good deal about their military.
In June 1999, Ritter responded to an interviewer, saying: "When you ask the question, 'Does Iraq possess militarily viable biological or chemical weapons?' the answer is no! It is a resounding NO. Can Iraq produce today chemical weapons on a meaningful scale? No! Can Iraq produce biological weapons on a meaningful scale? No! Ballistic missiles? No! It is 'no' across the board. So from a qualitative standpoint, Iraq has been disarmed."

If there was any evidence that Russia significantly interfered with a US election, that would've been massive grounds for aggression against Russia and that hasn't been a thing. All the stuff that is found out makes Russia look pretty inept honestly and so has the Ukraine war as well.

Define 'russiagate', define '0 evidence'. Because those words meaning something different to you than to the rest of the world is the only thing that can justify that blatant lie.

Trump-Russia collusion.

Everyone always says that. Or at least "both sides" people who think its what smart people say say that. Any evidence? One side believes in lizard clones, the other side believes in...climate change? One side believes so many Jewish Cuban zombies voted in Florida they needed to storm the capitol and assassinate the Vice President and the other side believes...gay people have a right to marry.
Yeah. I can see how both sides are equally bad.
You are being lied to about the severity of climate change like Don Lemon hilariously blaming a hurricane on climate change and the meteorologist saying "nope" and Lemon getting mad and trying to get him to say it's because of climate change. Also, wind and solar aren't viable replacements for fossil fuel energy either. You do realize the left pushes on the social stuff just so the right pushes back to keep your eye off the real prizes, right? How was the election in the middle of a pandemic in US not about healthcare reform when millions of Americans were laid off and lost health insurance? It completely boggles the mind how that wasn't easily the most pressing issue. What about talking about the actual cause of student debt vs Biden just releiving $10k but really not actually doing it because he actually doesn't want to? Because they run interference and deflect from those kinds of things that would cause change to the status quo. Literally none of the bills about CRT block anything about teaching American history yet the left tells you the bills do that when they don't. I don't get why ya'll get so upset about bills that do nothing at all. Literally my 1st thought about Jan 6 when I heard it happened was "they're storming the capitol over that and not like healthcare reform or something important?!?!" *insert Steph Curry smh gif*

Biting satire of American democracy. Stop letting them make the conversation be about the dead dog in the alley and how to slice the limes, but make it about the important shit.

The only smart line of dialogue from Don't Look Up (Jonah Hill's speech) is squarely about it as well:

There's three types of American people.

There are you, the working class.
Us, the cool rich, and then them.
[people booing]
I'm sorry, but we need them.
We need them because
you build us up to fight them.


See...I just. I mean yes, you are 100% correct. No one group is perfect, as groups are people, and people are inherently not perfect. No one is Captain America, no matter how hard we try, and a good 50% of us don't think Steve Rodgers is all that good.

Its just when it comes to politics, Democrats vs Republicans, I struggle to find anything the Democrats want to do that is wrong. Universal basic health care? Sure. LGBTQXYZ+ rights and medical privileges? Can do. Defund the police? Yes, Creve Coure Missouri police don't need a BearCat assault transport. Restructure and adapt police recruitment and training? Yes please, the Chesterfield valley in 2023 is not 2004 Al-Faluja, we don't need PTSD riddled Navy SEALS on patrol. Shore up Democracy and re-draw district maps to allow for a better representation of the population? Sounds like a plan. Reparations for centuries of racial and cultural harm to African Americans? If that's what they want, I'm all for it. Increase the tax on corporations and billionaires? Great! Fight climate change? About damn time. Medically safe abortion for women who chose to have it? Their body, their choice. Teach African history in school? Why not?

Once you break it down, issue to issue, its really hard to justify the "both parties" point of view. Sure, you'll find some super far left wacko on some super obscure podcast say something dumb like "all white people are racists" or "all people are gay, they just don't know it." and while that's fringe and stupid, its nowhere close to the mainstream Republican lawmakers real-time tweeting the location of Democrat lawmakers during an active coup.
The democrats don't wanna actually do universal health care. What rights don't trans people have...? I don't think there's any bill passed or currently being voted on that's actually limiting trans medical rights in any important manner. Just maybe if ya'll didn't push so hard on this shit, the right wouldn't feel the need to push against it. Like how the Minnesota defund the police movement wasn't about defunding the police and stopping them from having BearCats and whatever, it was literally removing the police department. Ya'll go crazy and get mad when the crazy is pointed out. The whole "defund the police" movement hasn't made things better at all, demonizing cops has made things worse, not better. Also, I'm sure you'd be for copying what Sweden or Denmark or France does with regards to policy and whatnot because they're more progressive. Why don't you look at what they are doing with trans medical guidelines? I hope you're not for cash payouts with regards to reparations. One super simple thing to help fix the racial divide is equally distributing school funds, is that ever in the conversation about reparations or fixing the racial divide? Nope.
 

SilentPony

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It doesn't matter what Don Lemon says about climate change, it matters what climate scientists say about climate change. And their opinion is that yes, climate change is horrible, its happening a lot faster than they predicted, and its causing weather to get more extreme.
Who gives a shit what some dipshit news anchor says? That's the difference between liberals and conservatives - liberals listen to experts. Conservatives listen to talking heads.

And seriously about the trans community? Seriously? Here, do a little reading and educate yourself before you embarrass yourself again: https://translegislation.com/
And if Republicans don't like it, if they think liberals are pushing too hard for the LGBTQXYZ+ community...well, they can get out. Don't like it, leave. Go to Russia - they LOVE anti-gay shit over there.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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You think CNN or FOX aren't entertainment channels?

Pop songs from the 80s were written with that notion, it's not some new or edge-y take.
Your take is irrelevant and their clownery is irrelevant. A bad news channel is not a comedy channel. It's a bad news channel.