Discuss and Rate the Last Thing You Watched (non-movies)

Hawki

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 4, 2014
9,651
2,173
118
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Ms Marvel (4/5)

...so if Kamala marries someone, does she end up as Mrs Marvel? Think about it...

Snark and shipping aside, I did like this series, and it's one of the rare cases where I've read some of the comics the show was based on rather than going into it as a first exposure to the character. The TL, DR version is that the show is good, but it's good despite its issues. Or rather, it's better than the sum of its parts. Because while there's a lot the show does well, it's far from perfect.

I'm going to try and avoid summarizing the show, but basically, think of its tone like a bell curve. It starts off light-hearted with excellent directing, drawings and grafitti coming to life to represent Kamala's overactive imagination. This style and tone just stops as Kamala travels to Pakistan and things get slightly grittier (key word "slightly") as the show looks at the partition of India. Then we get back to New Jersey for the final episode and the tone reverts to what it was. This isn't the worst sequence of events in the world, but at six episodes long, the curve's uneven, and I'm really not sure if it works. For instance, it's common for a story to start light-hearted and get more serious, it's rare for a story to start off whimsical, then get serious, then get whimsical again.

This issue also extends to the antagonists. There's basically two groups of antagonists - the "Clandestines," who want to get back to their dimension and are willing to destroy Earth to do it, and Damage Control which does, um, damage control in New Jersey. You'd think that the Clandestines would be the big bad, right? Well, no - the fight for the fate of the world occurs in a back alley in Karachi, and the head Clandestines just decides to...not destroy the world? Really, it's pretty vague as to what actually happens. After that, final episode with Damage Control hunting one of the Clandestines in what you might be able to see as a look at police brutality, but really, the whole thing's played for laughs. It's the same problem that the X-Men have when used as a vector for prejudice, that non-mutants have good reason to fear mutants, yet are portrayed as being bigots for doing so.

Also, the show looks at Partition, and I debated whether to really get into its stance on events and the blame game. That said, I'm going to give this a wide berth, because a) I'd be here all day, b) actual historians can do a better job than I can, and c) I've often maintained that the MCU should be treated as its own universe rather than being analagous to ours, so any historical inaccuracies/omissions can't be considered errors by that criteria because the IP ultimately follows its own history and rules.

So, yeah. The show does have issues. However, I still think this is "good" as the show remains strong in areas where it counts, namely its characters. Kamala's adorkable (even if her hero worship of Carol Danvers is never really explained), her family's fun, there's a lot of good humour, etc. Honestly, this is when the show's at its best - when Kamala and her friend(s) are just being dorky teenagers, that's when the show's at its best. I really don't want to go too deep into the well of this, but it does provide an interesting look at someone who's grown up in a world where heroes actually exists, and the resulting fan-followings that would result, but without the cynicism of The Boys.

Speaking of friends, is Bruno living alone or something? He's sixteen, his parents are "no longer around" (it's vague as to whether this means they're dead, or if they just buggered off), and while there's a reference to what I assume is his grandma, no family of his is ever seen. So when his shop gets destroyed, um, how does granny feel about that? I know he's not the main character, but it's like the writers forgot that 16 year olds usually have at least one family around. Also, this isn't really a plot hole, but it's clear that Bruno has a thing for Kamala, whereas she regards him purely platonicly, but there's no denouement in regards to this.

Also, since I brought it up with Moon Knight, I may as well mention it here - Moon Knight has a single scene where Marc Spector being Jewish is even hinted at, Kamala being Muslim is ingratiated into every episode. Make of that what you will.

Overall, neat little show.
 

hanselthecaretaker

My flask is half full
Legacy
Nov 18, 2010
8,738
5,905
118
Diane Sawyer Interview with Jeremy Renner

I’m a pretty big fan of horror movies but my god, just listening to some of his injuries being described was more gut wrenching than anything I’ve watched. Having said that, I whole-heartedly recommend this to pretty much anyone who’s old enough to drive. Dude has a heart of solid gold and goddamn is he a fighter to pull through it as well as he has. Some incredible luck was certainly involved, along with having a super supportive family and being rich, but even all that wouldn’t be enough without an immense level of mental discipline required for the goal of fully recovering.

It’s a pretty inspirational watch, I wish him all the best in his journey back to as much normalcy as possible, and hope to see him acting again soon.
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,706
2,886
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
Star Trek Picard Season 3

Score: 9/10

Watched on: Amazon Prime UK.

Tagline: "One Nerd boldy tries to fix years of Star Trek Franchise mismanagement"

Thoughts:

So I've read some of the takes here about it being bad.

I've read the piece the Escapist Darren Mooney put out


And

I DISAGREE

Full disclosure I only watched Season 1 of Picard and skipped Season 2 mostly watching Red Letter Media do overviews of the episodes because Season 1 was kind of bad in many ways. Season 1 had some redeeming moments. At the time I theorised in the writers room were multiple writers one of whom wasn't allowed much power but was an absolute Star Trek nerd and most of their input was in adding less mainstream bits of Star Trek lore into the mix like references to alien races whose total screen time amounted to less than 30 seconds in an Alex Kurtzman film and beyond that only ever appearing in extended universe material and the old kids cartoon Star Trek stuff. Or actual well thought out additions to lore like the fact Romulan warning signs are green, why? because Romulan's have green blood so while human society evolved with red warning signs due to red being something that makes people pay attention due to psychology and stuff related to human blood colour it makes sense the Romulans would evolve with green being their go to warning colour.

Picard Season 3 feels like the nerd in the room was given a shot after a fairly abysmal Picard Season 2 reaction and the nerd in the room heard everyone's criticism right down to Riker's pizza looking a bit burned in season 1 and people mocking Riker's log cabin.

Just for entertainment's sake lets go through some of what I spotted as attempts to correct the course of Star Trek or address criticisms: (spoiler warnings)

The CGI Data in Season 1 was uncanny valley and crap - (yes they used CGI to try and make Brent Spiner look younger and do his look for Data in season 1) = OK Season 3 other than contacts it's Brent Spiner and they've figured out a way to write it in.

But Picard and Data weren't super best friends he was more friends with Geordi - Brings back Geordi

I've already mentioned the pizza and log cabin stuff.

Jesus who thought it was a good idea to imply a possible romantic relationship between Raffi and Seven of Nine? - Yeh they broke up they weren't good together and both are embarrassed it ever happened.

Isn't the Romulan lady Picardhas feelings for way younger than him and it's a bit weird cause isn't she his housekeeper - You get one scene and the show wrote her out and doesn't bring her back up.

Too much bullshit action sequence ship fights etc - An entire episode long ship battle that really is "Big ships in space" where it's not about blasting but tactics and strategy with barely any weapons fired.

JJ Abrams Lens flares being used way too much - I spotted maybe 2 lens flares in the entire thing maybe 3 done very tastefully without the white glare bit of it ending up on screen.

Raffi is all kinds of awful and unlikable - We took all the messed up Raffi and turned it into a base for character development turning her into basically martial arts trained Reginald Barclay

"We don't like the Enterprise E" - Enterprise D is back baby.

The Federation is meant to be a really good altruistic future society how did it get so screwed up? - Here's a plot that could explain why it's all so messed up.

Admiral Shelby was just vile in Season 1 - Watch her get her comeuppance in Season 3 as she gets blasted




One thing Darren and people in this thread are right about, the show looks back to the past a lot this season but what people are seemingly mistaking for "Memberberries" or Nostalgic fan pleasing is actually shockingly in keeping with the theme of this season which is generational legacy and trauma. This is a season that invokes the Dominion wars and the idea maybe Star Fleet committed War Crimes, including what impact that would have on a society. It looks at the idea of the good and bad of what we pass on to the next generation.

One great example is captain Shaw and his sort of arc on the show with his traumatic past as a survivor of Wolf 359 colouring his actions.

This season was looking to the past, to put it to rest properly, not to rebel and to use a Star Wars line "Kill the past" to try and make it seems like something that needs replacing for being bad. No the replacement is part of the progression of time itself it's not replacing it, it's carrying on the legacy of the past still. It's kind of notable the season finale is literally the collective borg taking control of the younger crew mates to turn them against the older ones which you can interpret quite easily as a shot at the kind of disrespect for legacy characters being seen from many writers these days feeling their new characters must take over from, beat and replace the older ones.

Side Note: The final episode of Season 3 also felt like almost reaching out a hand as a gesture of peace to the Star Wars Fandom by having the Enterprise do a basically a Death Star Trench run.

Also the series is called Picard, looking to the past is a bit in the name plus probably doesn't help they killed off / wrote out most of the new characters in season 2 already so the writers lost the majority of the new established characters so quickly had to establish some new ones and fill out the rest with people who Star Trek fans hopefully would know.

The only reason I gave this season a 9 not a 10 is it's literally so much about dealing with the baggage of previous season and also the franchise as a while and taking on that much repair work at once I felt did drag the show down slightly.
I would point out that Voyager did many Death Star trench runs. Also... you couldn't find a bunch of uninfected to man the other museum ships? Like that episode was full of not much and having a heap able Federation peeps helping Picard would have helped me suspend my disbelief. Where's Admiral Janeway flying Voyager again, you cowards

Also... I don't know if I would say that there was issue with the Federation per se (except maybe overconfidence.) They were being infiltrated very successfully. I also don't understand why they portaled the academy since those kids were integral to their plan

I feel like this NuTrek focuses on the characters far more than old Trek. This CAN be good but the first two season was written so sloppily that it was damaging. I watched Season 2 just before season 3 dropped. I didn't find it reprehensible, probably a 5/10. Probably where I put original TNG for vastly different reasons.

This is the first time I have ever felt the TNG characters are real people. Beforehand they have been either sterile body sacks or the first two season of Picard where they are overly emotive with weird causes. On my pandemic re-watch, I noted that I couldn't even tell if the crew likes each other. But here, I can actually see that they care. The new Enterprise-D also loses it's sterility but is not drowned in black like NuTrek

But, I strongly disagree about the younger crew. The old crew is old. It is very okay they are recplaced. Cars 3 did it better. Let say that Picard helped but it was a team effort or focussed... he would be the Obi-Wan to the new generation. Like how stories traditionally happened. None of this 'We can't replace people'. That is such a new invention and contrary to society

Lastly, I care about call back that mean something. TNG was generally devoid of call backs. Eg. After Locutus was freed there was an episode about how traumatic Picard was. This is great in a vacuum (it's actually a 3 parter, not 2).... because the first four episodes of TNG is about Picard being mind controlled and almost killing everyone. I dont know why the Borg would effect him so much as he is mind controlled so frequently

Anyway, first four episodes were incredible. The crew was ACTUALLY in danger and it's great that TNG finally learnt a thing called tension and characters. The rest were good. 8/10

Edit: Anyone who is saying that TNG had better writing make me feel like they haven't actually watched TNG
 

Hawki

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 4, 2014
9,651
2,173
118
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
The Little Mermaid: Season 2 (4/5)

So, by virtue of rankings, season 2 is slightly better than season 1. Enough that I can call this season "good" rather than "okay," if only just. I'm going to cut to the chase as to why, mainly that Ariel is a better character here than in season 1, and bear in mind, I've already stated that TV!Ariel is better than Movie!Ariel. That actually raises some issues in a sense, but the reason she's better here is that she comes off as more mature. In season 1, there's a number of cases when Ariel is being selfish and/or naive, and a number of times when her reaction is to break down crying. This isn't bad character writinng (to borrow a quote, "a character without flaws isn't an interesting character"), but in season 2, Ariel has a grand total of one sob session, and given the circumstances involved, it's completely understandable as to why. To be clear, I doubt this was an intentional divergence (there's no acknowledgement of this apparent shift in what's still a serial-based series), but even by accident, it's still an improvement.

There's something else I noticed in this season (and I'm 50/50 as to whether this was an intentional shift), it's that it seems to want to tie itself in further with the movie than its predecessor. Every villain introduced in season 1 (Lobster Mobster, the Evil Manta, the sharkanians, etc.) are nowhere to be found, and Urchin has a grand total of one single appearance after his character arc (of sorts) in season 1. In the place of villains, Ursula takes centre stage as a recurring antagonist. This arguably harms the movie (I'll explain that when I come to that), but YMMV as to whether this is a good change or not.

Anyway, like before, going through various episodes with random notes:

-The episode Calliope Dreams got some sniggers out of me with its slapstick, though the episode is reasonably heartfelt. That being said, the episode does raise some questions. First, the movie's conceit at the start was that Ariel's scheduled appearance in the "Daughters of Triton" son was her "musical debut," but the plot of the episode involves Ariel making a, um, musical debut. One that's interrupted almost immediately, sure, but it arguably technically counts. Second, and this irks me more, Triton's desire to have one of his daughters play the sea calliope (basically think an organ) because of his own grandfather playing the instrument to him as a child is understandable. Why he decides Ariel play it, as opposed to any of his other daughters is never explained, nor even brought up. Sucks as it is for Ariel to play an instrument she's terrible at, she's not Florence Foster Jenkins here, it's her dad insisting she has the talent to do so. There's a potentially interesting angle in that Triton often shows apparent favoratism to Ariel, this being the most blatant example, but it's never really explored. So when Ariel's sisters guffaw at how terrible her playing is, while that sucks, I can't help but feel that some of their ire is earned, even if it's directed at the wrong person.

-Against the Tide is a decent episode. A "bad luck creature" that supposdly brings bad luck causes fear to all around it, and thus, misfortune (think the Pink Elephant Paradox). Also marks the first appearance of Ursula in the series.

-I mentioned above that Ariel has one sob session in the season, and the episode "Giggles" is what it's at. Basically, a fish sorcerer curses her so that every time she laughs, an earthquake (seaquake?) occurs, with the damage you'd expect from that. Furthermore, if she tells anyone about the curse...well, actually, I forget the details, but I think the implication is that everything comes crashing down (literally). While the conceit of the episode is...okay, at the very best (replace "okay" with "silly," and you'd likely be closer to the truth), this is actually a case of a silly idea being made more palatable by the execution, since it spotlights the tragedy involved, hence why Ariel finally breaks down. While it's the earthquakes that are causing literal, physical damage, it's clear in the context of the episode that the emotional damage the curse has inflicted is the greater tragedy, so credit given where credit is due. Also, while less poignent, the way she gets back at the sorcerer is reasonably well done, namely tracking him down and laughing, causing enough damage until the curse is lifted (there's a bit more that happens, but that's the gist of it).

-Wish Upon a Starfish...hoo boy, this is a doozy. I remember seeing this episode when it aired way back in the day, and to be frank, memory has betrayed me, and it doesn't hold up as much as I thought it would, but it actually gives me a lot of talk about. So on that note:

a) Yes, Gabriella is dark-skinned. I bring this up because a bunch of idiots have spent the last 3-4 years losing their minds over Halle Bailey being cast as Ariel in the live-skinned remake, which have included convoluted discussions over mermaid physiology. If the accusation is that Disney went "woke" with the casting, then I'd be able to treat these idiots with a few crumbs of respect if they could explain why they didn't lose their shit over Gabriella, but in what few times I've engaged on the subject, Gabriella's just bypassed altogether. Considering that she's deaf and dumb (as in, can't speak), SQWs would probably have a field day if this series was released today.

b) Getting to the subject of Gabriella herself though, as much as I hate to say it, this episode really doesn't do as good a job as I thought it would/did. This is part of my larger issue with the episode itself, but the problem is that in the space of around 22 minutes, both Gabriella and Ollie are introduced at the start of the second act, and this is compounded by how Ollie has to do a lot of speaking for her (as in, she does sign language, Ollie speaks what she says). The problem, however, is that not only is 14 minutes a short period to flesh out two characters, but it's often unclear as to when Gabriella's persona ends and Ollie's begins. Compare this to something like Urchin's introduction, who's introduced in the first act of his debut episode, and gets recurring character status, and is the onyl character in the entire series (so far) that has a character arc. Gabriella, on the other hand...I like her, but I think I more like the concept of her character than her character itself.

c) This brings me to the overall concept of the episode. Thing is, I really like this episode on the conceptual level - in many ways, it feels like the thematic antithesis to the Disney film, and I honestly think that this could have easily been a movie if things were fleshed out more. But in terms of execution? Well, the first act involves Ariel getting caught in a storm, and long story short, sees a human girl dancing, which gives her the idea of...sigh, having two tails (yes, Ariel's more mature in season 2 than season 1, I didn't say that was true every second of every episode). She meets Gabriella and Ollie at this point who tell her of the Wishing Starfish. Gabriella wants to find it so that she can speak (and hear, I assume, but she more wants to sing than anything else), while Ariel wants to find the starfish to, sigh, have a second tail. Again, "set out to get a wish" is a decent starting plotpoint, but it's stymied by how unbalanced their desires are. Gabriella's wish is something heartfelt, easily understandable, and she's sympathetic given her disabilities (yes, I know, ableism or somesuch, shoo, troll), while Ariel is being a nonce.

Anyway, to get to the starfish, they go through hazardous areas that they should be able to swim over, but meh. They reach the starfish, but it can't grant their wishes. Again, the emotional 'oomph' for this is much more pertinent to Gabriella than Ariel for reasons that should be obvious. Cue song number where Ariel sings and Gabriella dances, even if she can't sing herself. While the song itself is nothing to write home about, I still appreciate the sentiment behind it - take joy in what you have, be your own person, etc. Frankly, I find that a much better life lesson than the film, whose moral is "be as selfish as you want and get rewarded for it."

So, yeah. While the episode is rough, conceptually, it's solid. Just wish it had more time to flesh itself out, especially its characters (and by characters, I mean give Ariel a reasonable wish, and give Gabriella more screentime).

-Tail of Two Crabs is an episode I like until about the last 5 minutes or so. Basically, a crab named Zeus (continuing the series's tradition of ascribing deity names to characters that aren't deities) comes to Atlantica who's better at Sebastian at everything, and I mean, everything. So much so that he and Sebastian have a contest so that Sebastian can find one thing that he's better at, but after 4000 events, no such luck. As silly as that might sound, I actually think it's fairly well done, and at least for me, Sebastian's easy to relate to. There's people who are going to be better than you, and sometimes, all the effort in the world can't improve yourself, and you have to make peace with that...which would be nice if that was the message the episode was actually going for, but nup.

To skip to the end, I mentioned at the start about Ursula's appearance in season 2 arguably harming the film. Here, TL, DR, Ursula turns up and uses a magic stone mcguffin to turn Ariel and Triton into thingies (I think the same things seen in the film?) for about two minutes before Sebastian saves the day, and where a tearful Zeus confesses that there's one thing that Sebastian's better at than he is and that's...ugh, "making friends." First, to deal with Ursula, the reason I say it arguably damages the film is that going by the events of this cartoon, Ursula has already displayed clear malicious intent in front of Ariel and transformed her into a sea slug, yet in the film, while she's aware of Ursula's reputation, there was nothing to suggest that they'd ever had a previous encounter, let alone one where Ariel was transformed into a sea worm. I've criticized the numerous tie-in books I've read for their continuity issues, but as far as I can recall, they at least got the 'first encoutner principle' correct (I may be wrong, though). But even Ursula aside, and more importantly, the whole Zeus confession thing would have some weight if there was the slightest hint he was lonely, or had trouble making friends (and if that was the case, explain why he gets on with everyone so well). I know it's (usually) arrogant to say "here's how I would have done it," but honestly, if I was writing this episode, thematically, I'd still have Zeus better than Sebastian, but have the other characters validate him anyway. As in, you don't need to be No. 1 to have value and have others value you.

So, decent episode for about 90% of its runtime, just fails to stick the landing.

-Metal Fish: Ariel saves Hans Christian Andersen, which goes on to inspire him to write the original novel.

Leaving aside the continuity issues (the same season has had Mozart and Andersen live at the same time, which isn't historically accurate) and how this fits in with the wider IP, the episode's pretty decent. Can't fault it too much. Just don't have much to say either way.

Anyway, yeah. I've probably criticized more than I've praised here, but overall, the season is better than the prior one, and just about swims into "good" territory. Which is more than I can say about season 3 so far, but I'll swim under that bridge when I come to it.
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,118
5,407
118
Australia
Blake’s 7 season 2 - 7/10

The first season of this show is by no means perfect but the second is severely let down by one thing: the loss of the actor playing Space Commander Travis. Stephen Greif wore a much better prosthetic and his tone and bearing actually made him come across as an experienced, combat tested field officer in so much as a low budget campy series like this can allow. Sadly his replacement Brian Croucher is just not up to snuff - though credit to him he gives it his all - and it’s not hard to see how much better a lot of the really good scenes he got would have been with Greif.

Other than that the season is pretty good; Avon continues to word shiv everyone with ever second breath and consequently steal the rest of the cast’s thunder, Blake becomes even more desperate in his attempts to hurt the Federation and everyone else just kind of copes with their two dads - Blake and Avon - fighting.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
18,684
3,592
118
Blake’s 7 season 2 - 7/10

The first season of this show is by no means perfect but the second is severely let down by one thing: the loss of the actor playing Space Commander Travis. Stephen Greif wore a much better prosthetic and his tone and bearing actually made him come across as an experienced, combat tested field officer in so much as a low budget campy series like this can allow. Sadly his replacement Brian Croucher is just not up to snuff - though credit to him he gives it his all - and it’s not hard to see how much better a lot of the really good scenes he got would have been with Greif.

Other than that the season is pretty good; Avon continues to word shiv everyone with ever second breath and consequently steal the rest of the cast’s thunder, Blake becomes even more desperate in his attempts to hurt the Federation and everyone else just kind of copes with their two dads - Blake and Avon - fighting.
Apparently Stephen Greif was fed up with Travis always doing the same stuff, so left. Then they got Travis to do different stuff in the next series.

I like how they could film in a nuclear power plant. especially in Redemption, gives the place an impressive scale. Also, very impressed by the season finale, how they had no budget, but the radio chattter made it seem like a massive fleet was coming, only it'd be too late.
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,118
5,407
118
Australia
Apparently Stephen Greif was fed up with Travis always doing the same stuff, so left. Then they got Travis to do different stuff in the next series.
I mean, I don't blame the guy for lacking the powers of foresight and you gotta do what's best for you. But man do I wish someone had convinced him to just stick it out, because the court martial episode would have been incredible with Greif.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
5,938
651
118
I would point out that Voyager did many Death Star trench runs. Also... you couldn't find a bunch of uninfected to man the other museum ships? Like that episode was full of not much and having a heap able Federation peeps helping Picard would have helped me suspend my disbelief. Where's Admiral Janeway flying Voyager again, you cowards
Price also apparently according to rumours her and Jerri Ryan didn't have the best working relationship.

In terms of the other museum ships etc part of the point was meant to be that the ships were a mix of young and old so the young rebelled taking them over meaning there were few who weren't trapped etc on their ships. Presumably Admiral Janeway was on Voyager that got taken over.


Also... I don't know if I would say that there was issue with the Federation per se (except maybe overconfidence.) They were being infiltrated very successfully. I also don't understand why they portaled the academy since those kids were integral to their plan
The academy was a distraction really.

Also the problems of the federation I was referring to before was how Picard Season 1 kind of had gone grimdark. The Federation didn't care and abandoned the Romulans to their fate to a pretty large degree and was said to have "pulled back" leaving worlds and causing the Fenris Rangers to have to fill in.


I feel like this NuTrek focuses on the characters far more than old Trek. This CAN be good but the first two season was written so sloppily that it was damaging. I watched Season 2 just before season 3 dropped. I didn't find it reprehensible, probably a 5/10. Probably where I put original TNG for vastly different reasons.
Problem is that's really not what people watch Trek for, it's an ideas show. Plenty of shows focus on characters and their development while Star Trek was a lot about the big ideas around morality etc etc.

This is the first time I have ever felt the TNG characters are real people. Beforehand they have been either sterile body sacks or the first two season of Picard where they are overly emotive with weird causes. On my pandemic re-watch, I noted that I couldn't even tell if the crew likes each other. But here, I can actually see that they care. The new Enterprise-D also loses it's sterility but is not drowned in black like NuTrek
Well kind of yes because they were archetype characters really to allow the story to happen rather than being explored really as characters in themselves.

But, I strongly disagree about the younger crew. The old crew is old. It is very okay they are recplaced. Cars 3 did it better. Let say that Picard helped but it was a team effort or focussed... he would be the Obi-Wan to the new generation. Like how stories traditionally happened. None of this 'We can't replace people'. That is such a new invention and contrary to society
As I said it's about replacing because of the progression of time not replacing because the old is bad. It's OK they're being replaced, In Picard season 3 they're not huge fuck ups as Star Wars seemed to do with many, they've done something, they've lived lives, they've grown as characters and not become bitter disillusioned people or just repeating the same screw ups of before.

Lastly, I care about call back that mean something. TNG was generally devoid of call backs. Eg. After Locutus was freed there was an episode about how traumatic Picard was. This is great in a vacuum (it's actually a 3 parter, not 2).... because the first four episodes of TNG is about Picard being mind controlled and almost killing everyone. I dont know why the Borg would effect him so much as he is mind controlled so frequently
Normally though he doesn't end up committing mass murder when he gets mind controlled
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
18,684
3,592
118
I mean, I don't blame the guy for lacking the powers of foresight and you gotta do what's best for you. But man do I wish someone had convinced him to just stick it out, because the court martial episode would have been incredible with Greif.
I could see that. Though, I think the new actor took the character in a very different direction, and it'd be hard to tell. Season 1 Travis was the military thug that followed Servalan around. Season 2 was the gangster with serious mental health issues.

Also:

Stephen "Grief" Travers from the 7TV game. Notably, they didn't go for the other one, and it's telling I can't remember his name...but he hit the Doctor in Androids of Death, and yelled at Quatermass in the final Quatermass series.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
19,653
4,452
118
I watched the first two shorts of Star Wars Visions Season 2.

The first one is alright, nice visuals, but the second short is really, really damn good. If the rest of the shorts suck it wouldn't matter because that second one is just that terrific. It has an incredibly fucked up and sad ending, too.
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,706
2,886
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
Also the problems of the federation I was referring to before was how Picard Season 1 kind of had gone grimdark. The Federation didn't care and abandoned the Romulans to their fate to a pretty large degree and was said to have "pulled back" leaving worlds and causing the Fenris Rangers to have to fill in.
I'm just going to stop right here. And this is not targeted at you specifically but at everyone who thinks that was out of character for the Federation.

Might I suggest going back and finding an episode called Good Doctor in Enterprises run. Because non-intervention is the backbone of the Federation (unless requested). And it's so much grimdark than this. Then go back to TNG and see how many times Picard intervened in direct contradiction of this principle and who, regularly, this was presented as a bad thing. The Non-gendered planet, interactions with the Cardassian, Ro Laren, Jono and the Talarians

Them leaving the Romulans alone when the Romulans told them they didn't want help is very in character for the Federation. It is not in character for Picard. This is separate. I would hope that Captain Shaw hammered home the fact that Picard and Seven aren't really Starfleet and they break the rules far too often. (Personally, I see this as a positive but Starfleet doesn't.) Similarly, if you heard of the Eugenics war, you would know that dangerous inventions are banned. Banning Synths was not out of the question for the Federation. I would not be surprised if the Federation ban fleet-wide integration after this... because that sounds really stupid. I also remember Sisko yelling at Picard and holding him in disgust so getting yelled at by an admiral yelling at him is not out of the question

I don't know where people got the idea that the Federation was a complete utopia. It wasn't under TNG. It certainly wasn't with DS9. Voyager did its own thing. It was pretty close to being a utopia but it had problems

Far too many people mistook poor writing in Picard for not carrying on Star Trek's legacy. No, they did carry on Star Trek's legacy. They had decent concepts but poor execution. Also, mystery boxes can go away please and thank you.
 

Absent

And twice is the only way to live.
Jan 25, 2023
1,594
1,552
118
Country
Switzerland
Gender
The boring one
By principle I'm all for strikes and people asking higher wages when their bosses make more money due to maximized workforce exploitation (aka capitalism-as-a-moral-compass).

But yeah, lately I haven't found many movies or series which scripts couldn't have been produced by an AI from 1990. This makes the "oh noes the higher ups don't value our work as much as it deserves" sound a bit odd.

Of course, could be the other way round. Cheap-ass higher-up throwing a couple of coins at scriptwriters for them to sprout out a "good enough" script for tomorrow.

And yet again, these cheap "good enough" scripts make millions. Maybe in that case, the scriptwriters should maybe hold the public in hostage rather than the executives. "Do fucking value good stories better than you do, or else... or else we... uh... write even shittier ones? And you'll notice? Maybe?"
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,118
5,407
118
Australia
I'm just going to stop right here. And this is not targeted at you specifically but at everyone who thinks that was out of character for the Federation.

Might I suggest going back and finding an episode called Good Doctor in Enterprises run. Because non-intervention is the backbone of the Federation (unless requested). And it's so much grimdark than this. Then go back to TNG and see how many times Picard intervened in direct contradiction of this principle and who, regularly, this was presented as a bad thing. The Non-gendered planet, interactions with the Cardassian, Ro Laren, Jono and the Talarians

Them leaving the Romulans alone when the Romulans told them they didn't want help is very in character for the Federation. It is not in character for Picard. This is separate. I would hope that Captain Shaw hammered home the fact that Picard and Seven aren't really Starfleet and they break the rules far too often. (Personally, I see this as a positive but Starfleet doesn't.) Similarly, if you heard of the Eugenics war, you would know that dangerous inventions are banned. Banning Synths was not out of the question for the Federation. I would not be surprised if the Federation ban fleet-wide integration after this... because that sounds really stupid. I also remember Sisko yelling at Picard and holding him in disgust so getting yelled at by an admiral yelling at him is not out of the question

I don't know where people got the idea that the Federation was a complete utopia. It wasn't under TNG. It certainly wasn't with DS9. Voyager did its own thing. It was pretty close to being a utopia but it had problems

Far too many people mistook poor writing in Picard for not carrying on Star Trek's legacy. No, they did carry on Star Trek's legacy. They had decent concepts but poor execution. Also, mystery boxes can go away please and thank you.
I personally don't remember any interaction Sisko had with Picard barring the handover conversation in the first episode of DS9 which was understandably terse and unpleasant. I would never expect those two men to ever be friends no matter the social and philosophical advances in humanity. Some wounds run too deep.

Or did he come back from hanging out with the Prophets - who by now must love baseball and jambalaya - just to put his two cents in? I ask because other than being pissed off about the death of his wife which not even Picard himself would ever deny, Ben Sisko is in no position to yell at or hold ANYONE in contempt for breaking the rules; the hypocrisy would be enough to give him a brain aneurysm.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
27,035
11,332
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
Maybe in that case, the scriptwriters should maybe hold the public in hostage rather than the executives. "Do fucking value good stories better than you do, or else... or else we... uh... write even shittier ones? And you'll notice? Maybe?"
That it wouldn't do anyone much good, except for the top executives. It would be just be pointless bickering underneath them, and would something they would take high advantage of and exploit further. When I last checked, the majority of the public ain't asking the writers to be screwed over. The scriptwriters and writers know what they're doing, and I am glad they're jumping on his. They don't want a repeat of what happened in 2007. Take the executives and investors for all they're worth.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
5,938
651
118
I'm just going to stop right here. And this is not targeted at you specifically but at everyone who thinks that was out of character for the Federation.

Might I suggest going back and finding an episode called Good Doctor in Enterprises run. Because non-intervention is the backbone of the Federation (unless requested). And it's so much grimdark than this. Then go back to TNG and see how many times Picard intervened in direct contradiction of this principle and who, regularly, this was presented as a bad thing. The Non-gendered planet, interactions with the Cardassian, Ro Laren, Jono and the Talarians
Ok so to address this in a few point.

  • Enterprise is pre United Federation of Planets. This means pre normal Star Fleet rules etc. Yes it's a dark episode because it's meant to be in a period where humanity was reaching out into the dark for the first time.
  • The non -intervention rules are for pre-warp civilisations , the Romulans were very much post warp.
  • Just because it is against the normal rules doesn't mean people won't do it if they believe it's right to do so

Them leaving the Romulans alone when the Romulans told them they didn't want help is very in character for the Federation.
Except (correct me if I'm wrong) they never did say the Romulans didn't want help, they said they hadn't officially requested it (because the Federation has literally been their enemy for so long and they're shown as somewhat proud people).

It is not in character for Picard. This is separate. I would hope that Captain Shaw hammered home the fact that Picard and Seven aren't really Starfleet and they break the rules far too often. (Personally, I see this as a positive but Starfleet doesn't.) Similarly, if you heard of the Eugenics war, you would know that dangerous inventions are banned. Banning Synths was not out of the question for the Federation.
True but part of TNG was about how synths should have rights, they actually had multiple episodes on that and yet Picard Season 1 is using them as drone workers. When weirdly in the TNG age they had Engineering pod things that could be used anyway.


I would not be surprised if the Federation ban fleet-wide integration after this... because that sounds really stupid. I also remember Sisko yelling at Picard and holding him in disgust so getting yelled at by an admiral yelling at him is not out of the question
True, however people really took objection to her "Sheer fucking hubris" lecturing of Picard. Like no way is that professional. If she'd let Picard down lightly then people wouldn't have an objection to her but it was the way she did it combine with the fact, this wasn't some asshole admiral gets their comeuppance Star Trek story.

I don't know where people got the idea that the Federation was a complete utopia. It wasn't under TNG. It certainly wasn't with DS9. Voyager did its own thing. It was pretty close to being a utopia but it had problems
It had issues sure but it's far from "We're leaving you to your own devices with no help at all because we can't be bothered anymore" sort of thing.

Far too many people mistook poor writing in Picard for not carrying on Star Trek's legacy. No, they did carry on Star Trek's legacy. They had decent concepts but poor execution. Also, mystery boxes can go away please and thank you.
I maintain 1 person on that team cared deeply for Star Trek, the rest were action show writers who were just sticking the Star Trek name on a generic script they'd written for almost any other Sci-fi show. Season 3 feels like that writer being actually given control of the show.
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,118
5,407
118
Australia
Ok so to address this in a few point.

  • Enterprise is pre United Federation of Planets. This means pre normal Star Fleet rules etc. Yes it's a dark episode because it's meant to be in a period where humanity was reaching out into the dark for the first time.
  • The non -intervention rules are for pre-warp civilisations , the Romulans were very much post warp.
  • Just because it is against the normal rules doesn't mean people won't do it if they believe it's right to do so

Except (correct me if I'm wrong) they never did say the Romulans didn't want help, they said they hadn't officially requested it (because the Federation has literally been their enemy for so long and they're shown as somewhat proud people).


True but part of TNG was about how synths should have rights, they actually had multiple episodes on that and yet Picard Season 1 is using them as drone workers. When weirdly in the TNG age they had Engineering pod things that could be used anyway.



True, however people really took objection to her "Sheer fucking hubris" lecturing of Picard. Like no way is that professional. If she'd let Picard down lightly then people wouldn't have an objection to her but it was the way she did it combine with the fact, this wasn't some asshole admiral gets their comeuppance Star Trek story.


It had issues sure but it's far from "We're leaving you to your own devices with no help at all because we can't be bothered anymore" sort of thing.



I maintain 1 person on that team cared deeply for Star Trek, the rest were action show writers who were just sticking the Star Trek name on a generic script they'd written for almost any other Sci-fi show. Season 3 feels like that writer being actually given control of the show.
If you mean the ExoComps, they too proved themselves sapient - including the ability to perform acts of sacrifice - in the same episode they debuted and subsequently were never seen again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dwarvenhobble

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,706
2,886
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
If you mean the ExoComps, they too proved themselves sapient - including the ability to perform acts of sacrifice - in the same episode they debuted and subsequently were never seen again.
Clearly you have not heard of Peanut Hamper