Funny events in anti-woke world

[Casual Shinji]

There is as much factual, objective evidence for transgender Gwen as there is for cisgender Gwen, the latter just has societal inertia. Which isn't evidence

I'd say the closest thing to evidence that she isn't trans is that if she was it'd mean her father would be fully aware and accepting of his daughter being trans, but still draw a gun on her for coming out as Spider-Woman, not seeing the parallel or trusting his daughter in the same manner as when she came out as trans. Not that this scenario wouldn't be possible, just that it would make his character rather inconsistent... and maybe even more of an asshole.

 

[McElroy]

There is as much factual, objective evidence for transgender Gwen as there is for cisgender Gwen, the latter just has societal inertia. Which isn't evidence

What a nice way to put that fictional characters don't have those attributes to begin with. Any argument over the "canon" of a drawing's inner personal life of which every single moment is invented and written down is ridiculous. Her part of the multiverse could have ten recognized official genders since the middle ages and trans rights in their world means support for another ten more.

But the representation angle means it has to be somehow tied to the real world. The discussion about it is the representation, y'know, "the closest thing to actual representation" as Casual Shinji put it. The audiovisual representation of her character is female and if somebody wants to add some fan theory in there they are free to do so as long as they understand that dismissing it entirely is not an attack against them.

 

[BrawlMan]

More in the next Film Theory video.

NEVER!

If that's a MattPat Game/Film Theory reference, I hate that guy and nearly all of his content.

The discussion about it is the representation, y'know, "the closest thing to actual representation" as Casual Shinji put it. The audiovisual representation of her character is female and if somebody wants to add some fan theory in there they are free to do so as long as they understand that dismissing it entirely is not an attack against them.

I do find it ironic, that there are those who are trans who see Gwen as a trans allegory, or resonate with them, yet their are actual positive depictions of trans characters in video games now. That aren't just supposed allegories/interpretations and are the actual up front and center about it. Shit, games have an advantage of this over mainstream Hollywood in this department to an extent. You have Poison (Street Fighter/Final Fight), Bridgette (Guilty Gear). and Catalyst (Apex Legends). Now obviously, none of these are as mainstream as Spider-Man, but even the most casual gamer or fighting game fan knows who Poison is at this point, and has been for a long while know. Poison did start off as a negative depiction of a trans character, but that changed around the late 90s and mid-late 2000s. At the time, Capcom tried to make her gender ambiguous, but by the 2010s most fighting game fans and SF fans in general accepted her as trans. The only difference being according to Capcom: she is pre-op in Japan, and post-op in the West.

Bridgette started off as a boy who cross-dressed, but became trans by the time of Strive. Though according to Arc System, they had always planned for him to develop as trans, and was not a spur of the moment thing/trend jumping bandwagon. A majority of GG fans received her positively, with not much complaints.

There's Celeste too, as Madeline is implied and outright confirmed to be MTF trans as well. That is more from the indie scene, but Celeste might as well be mainstream at this point with all of the acclaim the game has gotten.

Final chapter of indie hit Celeste signals toward a possibly transgender protagonist

The developers have yet to confirm the online fan speculation.

www.dailydot.com

Is Madeline Canonically Trans?

Well, yeah, of course she is.

maddythorson.medium.com

In fact, a lot of indie games tend to have positive or mature views/depictions of trans people, than anything put together in Hollywood and mainstream gaming combined. That are not just allegories or fanons coming from peoples minds. I can't name all of them off the top of my head, sadly, but I do know Stephanie Sterling was involved with one of them.

 

[SilentPony]

Speaking for Pony here, so they can tell me to get lost if I'm offbase...

It's not that it's important Gwen isn't trans. It's more about separating "canon" from "fanon".

If Gwen was canon trans, that would be just as fine as her being canon cis. And as far as fanon, people are always free to make Gwen trans or cis however they feel. Trans people identifying with her and her struggles is great, but it's weird when people claim that Gwen is canonically trans due to their fanon.

Let me try putting it another way:

History has had a fucking awful habit of claiming female "roommates" or male "platonic" love for various figures to erase LGBT. However, we shouldn't just reflexively claim all figures in those situations were LGBT. Many (most?) of them were LGBT, but some were honestly just roommates or close friends. We should look at the available evidence for each figure and make the best estimate (even if that estimate is "could be either way") until proven otherwise. People are free to believe otherwise or even identify with their situations, but it would be incorrect to factually state that "fanon" against the evidence.

I mean basically this. It doesn't detract from Gwen's character if she's trans. Its a story about a teen unsure of themselves and worried what coming out to their parents means, and how to deal with their real identity vs the show one. A great trans story for the ages.
However it doesn't add anything either. If she's Cis, its a story about a teen unsure of themselves and worried what coming out to their parents means, and how to deal with their real identity vs the show one. A great cis story for the ages.
Because she's a teen with a secret. Like every teen ever. She's a teen who worries about parental approval, specifically fatherly approval. Like every teen ever. She's worried how to be Spiderman and Gwen and protect her loved ones. Like literally every Spiderman ever.

And that's not just subtext, its expressed text and dialogue in the movie. Miles' big climax moment is gathering the strength to come out to his mom about being Spiderman. Its the literal high mark of his emotional journey. But no one says Miles is trans. No one says Peter Parker is trans, or that Peni Parker is trans or T-Rex Spiderman is trans. Despite, specifically, they're all going through the exact same doubt, regret and fear Gwen is going through.

If she's trans, good, great. If she's not, good, great. Because her story, her journey, is a universal one. Worried about who you are, what you want, how to get it, and how friends and family will treat you is not a trans exclusive journey. That's literally life. Every single person who has ever lived has gone through that, with the possible exception of Elon Musk, but that's only because I'm not convinced he's alive so much as a sentient cloud of gas farting from a slowly rotting corpse.

Oh and lets not forget the obvious racial aspect to Gwen's story. A pretty skinny white girl, with a cop for a dad, in love with a black man and keeping it a secret? And afraid to come out to her father about her secret? Yeah, every text about Gwen being trans can easily be re-translated into a interracial relationship metaphor. Although Im not sure metaphor is the right word, 'cause its heavy handed as fuck.

 

[Casual Shinji]

And that's not just subtext, its expressed text and dialogue in the movie. Miles' big climax moment is gathering the strength to come out to his mom about being Spiderman. Its the literal high mark of his emotional journey. But no one says Miles is trans. No one says Peter Parker is trans, or that Peni Parker is trans or T-Rex Spiderman is trans. Despite, specifically, they're all going through the exact same doubt, regret and fear Gwen is going through.

That isn't Miles' climax. It's set up as such, but is then used as a twist reveal. If it was the high to his emotional journey that would've been his actual mom, not his mom from an alternate reality where Spider-Man doesn't exist. Miles' climax is standing up to Miguel and rejecting the people he thought would have his back, including Gwen and Peter B. It's fighting back against and not bowing down to a system that rejects him. There's both your racial and queer metaphor.

And the reason no one says Peter, or Peni, or the T-Rex are trans is because one is a joke character featured in just one shot, the other is a character we barely get to know, and Peter apart from not really having an arc in Across is also just not coded that way.

Oh and lets not forget the obvious racial aspect to Gwen's story. A pretty skinny white girl, with a cop for a dad, in love with a black man and keeping it a secret? And afraid to come out to her father about her secret? Yeah, every text about Gwen being trans can easily be re-translated into a interracial relationship metaphor. Although Im not sure metaphor is the right word, 'cause its heavy handed as fuck.

Well, she's not really keeping that a secret, since there's no way of her father actually finding out about that, being that Miles (the one she knows anyway) doesn't even exist in her universe. So no, I wouldn't say you could easily re-translate her text to an interracial relationship metaphor. Gwen's story is about wanting her father to see her and accept her for who she really is, and nowhere does Miles form an obstacle in this.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The audiovisual representation of her character is female and if somebody wants to add some fan theory in there they are free to do so as long as they understand that dismissing it entirely is not an attack against them.

Does it need to be dismissed? Does it need to be constantly challenged and refuted? Because if you can't share a reading or a theory without it being dogpilled by a hundred goobers who are desperately saying that it's not canon, will never be canon, and you're just making shit up (but fan theories are okay), are fan theories actually okay? The audiovisual representation of Gwen as female doesn't prove she's cisgender, that's just the dominant fan theory. People really have to be more flexible with media interpretations

Oh and lets not forget the obvious racial aspect to Gwen's story. A pretty skinny white girl, with a cop for a dad, in love with a black man and keeping it a secret? And afraid to come out to her father about her secret? Yeah, every text about Gwen being trans can easily be re-translated into a interracial relationship metaphor. Although Im not sure metaphor is the right word, 'cause its heavy handed as fuck.

Well, she's not really keeping that a secret, since there's no way of her father actually finding out about that, being that Miles (the one she knows anyway) doesn't even exist in her universe. So no, I wouldn't say you could easily re-translate her text to an interracial relationship metaphor. Gwen's story is about wanting her father to see her and accept her for who she really is, and nowhere does Miles form an obstacle in this.

Timely example of what I'm talking about.

 

[SilentPony]

Well, she's not really keeping that a secret, since there's no way of her father actually finding out about that, being that Miles (the one she knows anyway) doesn't even exist in her universe. So no, I wouldn't say you could easily re-translate her text to an interracial relationship metaphor. Gwen's story is about wanting her father to see her and accept her for who she really is, and nowhere does Miles form an obstacle in this.

I mean does her father know about Miles? Doesn't seem like he does. That makes it a secret.
That's the problem with vague hand-waving at vague concepts like "acceptance" and "understanding" and just blanket claiming its a story about a certain group of people. Concepts like wanting parental approval are, as I've previously stated, a universal human experience. Saying Gwen is coded trans because she wants her father's approval is so vague its meaningless. Everyone wants parental approval. That doesn't mean everyone is coded trans, just that trans are people like everyone else. The trans community weren't the first to ever struggle with identity and family. If they see a mirror of their struggles in Gwen's struggles, good, great, I'm happy for them. But literally anyone who has ever struggled with anything can see themselves in a story about someone struggling. Her story is universal. She's not so much coded trans as coded just...a person.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I mean does her father know about Miles? Doesn't seem like he does. That makes it a secret.
That's the problem with vague hand-waving at vague concepts like "acceptance" and "understanding" and just blanket claiming its a story about a certain group of people. Concepts like wanting parental approval are, as I've previously stated, a universal human experience. Saying Gwen is coded trans because she wants her father's approval is so vague its meaningless. Everyone wants parental approval. That doesn't mean everyone is coded trans, just that trans are people like everyone else. The trans community weren't the first to ever struggle with identity and family. If they see a mirror of their struggles in Gwen's struggles, good, great, I'm happy for them. But literally anyone who has ever struggled with anything can see themselves in a story about someone struggling. Her story is universal. She's not so much coded trans as coded just...a person.

I mean, I get the desire for it to be unassailable canon. Bridget Guilty Gear still has people saying she isn't actually/shouldn't be transgender despite her turning to the camera and saying she's a girl, followed by the devs turning to the camera saying she's a girl, based entirely on the fact that her old lore didn't say she was transgender and her announcement didn't spoil her arcade story. Some people are just thick like that

Veering into hot take territory, I firmly believe that the current inability to have any ambiguity without controversy and there needing to be a strict canon at all times is down to test based educational policies (No Child Left Behind) where there can be only one correct answer, and Cinamasins style "criticism" becoming popular. The movie can only have One Correct Interpretation and anything else is just a fan theory lest it get a ding and be considered a plot hole

 

[Elijin]

So many of you prepared to agree the interpretation fits either perspective without altering the story or running into errors or contradictions, yet still spending paragraphs determining why the trans take is "the wrong one". Or in your more forgiving (to yourselves) takes, "the fan theory".

There isn't a correct take. If it fits both ways it's entirely about your interpretation of the media, a fairly significant part of consuming media. If someone having the idea she's trans needs to be corrected in your world view, you should look inward and reflect on that.

 

[SilentPony]

So many of you prepared to agree the interpretation fits either perspective without altering the story or running into errors or contradictions, yet still spending paragraphs determining why the trans take is "the wrong one". Or in your more forgiving (to yourselves) takes, "the fan theory".

There isn't a correct take. If it fits both ways it's entirely about your interpretation of the media, a fairly significant part of consuming media. If someone having the idea she's trans needs to be corrected in your world view, you should look inward and reflect on that.

The fan theory is all good. Fans can believe whatever the want, and that's great. The trans community can identify with Gwen and her struggle, and they can believe she's trans until the cows come home. Great! I'm happy for them.
But there is a difference between this being a fan theory that the movie doesn't openly contradict, and claiming the lack of contradiction is proof the in-story narrative is confirming the fan theory.
Like I said early, its like the Velma is a sex goddess theory. Cute theory. But its not actually backed up by anything in the stories. Its just a cute theory.
Gwen being trans has a little more validity in that she has a protect trans kids flag in her room. But that's like kinda' it. That's the full extent of the evidence. Everything else is, like you said, just open to interpretation either way.
There is no confirmation she's trans. Alternatively there's no confirmation she isn't trans. We'll see if the address it in the third movie.

I mean, I get the desire for it to be unassailable canon. Bridget Guilty Gear still has people saying she isn't actually/shouldn't be transgender despite her turning to the camera and saying she's a girl, followed by the devs turning to the camera saying she's a girl, based entirely on the fact that her old lore didn't say she was transgender and her announcement didn't spoil her arcade story. Some people are just thick like that

Veering into hot take territory, I firmly believe that the current inability to have any ambiguity without controversy and there needing to be a strict canon at all times is down to test based educational policies (No Child Left Behind) where there can be only one correct answer, and Cinamasins style "criticism" becoming popular. The movie can only have One Correct Interpretation and anything else is just a fan theory lest it get a ding and be considered a plot hole

Its entirely understandable fans want solid, explicit lore. I mean the central premise of the movie kinda revolves around the idea of canon, canon events, and the ability to change aspects of your life and if you're trapped to always be something, do something. Things having a right and wrong answer, or at least a yes/no one, is the point of Miles' and Gwen's struggles.

 

[Cicada 5]

Andrew Tate Is Suing 2 Women Who Accused Him of Human Trafficking for $5 Million

Tate and his brother Tristan claim a Florida woman and a British woman colluded to get them charged in Romania.

jezebel.com

 

[Casual Shinji]

I mean does her father know about Miles? Doesn't seem like he does. That makes it a secret.
That's the problem with vague hand-waving at vague concepts like "acceptance" and "understanding" and just blanket claiming its a story about a certain group of people. Concepts like wanting parental approval are, as I've previously stated, a universal human experience. Saying Gwen is coded trans because she wants her father's approval is so vague its meaningless. Everyone wants parental approval. That doesn't mean everyone is coded trans, just that trans are people like everyone else. The trans community weren't the first to ever struggle with identity and family. If they see a mirror of their struggles in Gwen's struggles, good, great, I'm happy for them. But literally anyone who has ever struggled with anything can see themselves in a story about someone struggling. Her story is universal. She's not so much coded trans as coded just...a person.

Parental approval for a secret that she carries that if found out runs her the risk of being disowned or even arrested/locked-up by her father is not a universal struggle. Just because everyone can or should be able to empathize with that struggle doesn't mean it can't hit way more close to home for a certain demographic. And when people from that demographic call this out we should probably take their word on it. Trans people ARE people like everyone else... except that's not really how they're viewed though is it, not in society as a whole and not in Hollywood. Saying trans people aren't the first to struggle with identity and family is a very weird thing to say. I mean, no shit, but trans people do have very different and more risk heavy family struggles than cis people. I mean, do cis people run into being disowned or violently confronted by a parent after revealing a secret to their identity? Sure. Do trans people experience it at a much greater percentage? Hell yes.

And again with the 'not everyone is coded trans' accusation as if that's what's happening. No, just Gwen, and just this Gwen in Across, not even in Into or any other iteration of the character. I mean, can you name me the last time people theorized on a character in a mainstream movie being trans? Probably not. So why is this one rare instance where the trans community feels a character resonates so close to them that they have a moment of 'hmm, she could actually be trans' immediately dismissed as 'no, it's a universal struggle, and the trans community has no unique or profound view on this at all'?

 

[SilentPony]

And again with the 'not everyone is coded trans' accusation as if that's what's happening. No, just Gwen, and just this Gwen in Across, not even in Into or any other iteration of the character. I mean, can you name me the last time people theorized on a character in a mainstream movie being trans? Probably not. So why is this one rare instance where the trans community feels a character resonates so close to them that they have a moment of 'hmm, she could actually be trans' immediately dismissed as 'no, it's a universal struggle, and the trans community has no unique or profound view on this at all'?

I mean we did go through this thing only like two years ago with the She-Ra reboot and fans theorizes she was trans. Samus is trans is another popular one, Lambert from Alien is trans, that whole fiasco with Elle from the Last of Us. It kinda does seem to crop up every six months or so.

And its not about the trans community having a "profound" view of this. If anything its baby's first metaphor. Yeah, struggling with yourself and fearing rejection...yeah that's a pretty basic human concept.
All Im saying is if the 3rd movie doesn't state she's trans, it shouldn't detract from her story.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I mean we did go through this thing only like two years ago with the She-Ra reboot and fans theorizes she was trans. Samus is trans is another popular one, Lambert from Alien is trans, that whole fiasco with Elle from the Last of Us. It kinda does seem to crop up every six months or so.

Then you're going to have to bring me up to speed on that, because the only one I can remember from this list is TLoU2 and it involved Abby, with her being accused of being trans by the usual reactionaries. But okay, every six months or so - That's everyone being coded by the trans community as trans? That's what, not even 0.1% of characters in fiction we see coming by every year?

And its not about the trans community having a "profound" view of this. If anything its baby's first metaphor. Yeah, struggling with yourself and fearing rejection...yeah that's a pretty basic human concept.

Just because it's a basic human concept doesn't mean there's not certain details within particular narratives that tie this specific struggle to a community. Like, coding in fiction is a thing. And if you think Gwen's story isn't coded, that there isn't an obvious discrimination metaphor, and that certain demographics collectively recognize themselves in this, in this case trans people... I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

And hey, don't listen to me, listen to actual trans people (who aren't Blaire White), unless you think they wouldn't be able to recognize trans struggles in fiction.

 

[SilentPony]

Then you're going to have to bring me up to speed on that, because the only one I can remember from this list is TLoU2 and it involved Abby, with her being accused of being trans by the usual reactionaries. But okay, every six months or so - That's everyone being coded by the trans community as trans? That's what, not even 0.1% of characters in fiction see coming by every year?

Just because it's a basic human concept doesn't mean there's not certain details within particular narratives that tie this specific struggle to a community. Like, coding in fiction is a thing. And if you think Gwen's story isn't coded, that there isn't an obvious discrimination metaphor, and that certain demographics collectively recognize themselves in this, in this case trans people... I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

And hey, don't listen to me, listen to actual trans people (who aren't Blaire White), unless you think they wouldn't be able to recognize trans struggles in fiction.

Funnily enough I did ask a trans person - my sister. The phrase she used was "queer bait".

And I'd argue that discrimination as a metaphor kinda' speaks to a hell of a lot more communities than just the trans one.

 

[McElroy]

In fact, a lot of indie games tend to have positive or mature views/depictions of trans people, than anything put together in Hollywood and mainstream gaming combined. That are not just allegories or fanons coming from peoples minds.

I admit I'm rather cynical when it comes to this fare. The so-called maturity of the video game industry has in part come through diversity consultants that can safely suggest flavor to the representation of races, nationalities, body types, sexualities and gender identities because that has nothing to do with the technical side of gaming. Celeste's vision comes from one person who themselves were not sure of their identity, and so the themes are what they are but it's a game at its core.

Does it need to be dismissed? Does it need to be constantly challenged and refuted? Because if you can't share a reading or a theory without it being dogpilled by a hundred goobers who are desperately saying that it's not canon, will never be canon, and you're just making shit up (but fan theories are okay), are fan theories actually okay?

Yes. Because canon nerds take this shit seriously as hell. Keep normal people and their critical readings far away from canon nerds. The only reason for the whole argument are fan theorizing trans or whatever people thinking canon can mean whatever you want. That's asking for dismissal from canon nerds and from normal people who have to find out that waitaminute it's just a fan theory some people pathetically cling to.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Funnily enough I did ask a trans person - my sister. The phrase she used was "queer bait".

And I'd argue that discrimination as a metaphor kinda' speaks to a hell of a lot more communities than just the trans one.

Yes okay, which means that there is coding. Whether it's positive or not is a different question, but Gwen's struggle isn't depicted as just a universal one with no particular leaning. The struggle is a discriminatory one, which some communities experience a lot more and recognize themselves in more than others. And with what's happening to trans people in the U.S. now it's not surprising they might have a stronger reaction to this and want to seek validation through this character more than, for example, interracial couples would.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Yes. Because canon nerds take this shit seriously as hell. Keep normal people and their critical readings far away from canon nerds. The only reason for the whole argument are fan theorizing trans or whatever people thinking canon can mean whatever you want. That's asking for dismissal from canon nerds and from normal people who have to find out that waitaminute it's just a fan theory some people pathetically cling to.

Look, I know that weird nerds cling to any scrap of pseudo-evidence they can find that any given character can't be trans, Bridget was announced like 9 months ago or something, but the pathetic part is the aggressive commenting on every normal person's interaction just having a good time, not the belief itself. If the weird nerds didn't dogpile every person talking about how much they love Bridget or how seen they feel with canon transgender girl Gwen Stacy, nobody would care and there wouldn't be an argument. I may do some trolling

EDIT:God, can you imagine talking about any media under the same kind of scrutiny that shows up when some character might be gay and/or trans? Like, show me irrefutable, objective proof that Miles Morales is a cisgender male. Samus Aran has significant biological modification including organs and DNA of at least three different species floating around, some donors of which are textually if not provably "male". *Does* Samus fall onto a human gender spectrum anymore? Suletta and Miorine are wearing rings at the end of G Witch and there's still some holdouts claiming they aren't gay, follow that logic for basically every straight couple shown anywhere

Do I personally think Spiderverse Gwen Stacy is trans? I've heard some compelling arguments for and I'm not personally invested, so sure, why not. Do I care if other people don't? Not if they aren't being dicks about it. I'm kinda more stuck on Gwne Stacy walking into a room filled with people who have PTSD because she died in their world and how fucking weird that would be

 

[Thaluikhain]

Without having actually seen the thing in question, isn't it likely that they are doing the usual thing of implying they've got a trans character to get diversity points, without actually saying for sure that they do?

 

[BrawlMan]

I admit I'm rather cynical when it comes to this fare. The so-called maturity of the video game industry has in part come through diversity consultants that can safely suggest flavor to the representation of races, nationalities, body types, sexualities and gender identities because that has nothing to do with the technical side of gaming.

Note how I said indie games. Those usually come from the vision of one person or a team's specific vision. Though this nothing inherently wrong with having a consultant. Especially if that consultant comes from a specific racial, national, or LBGTQ background. As long as it's done with proper care and respect, then you've done good in my book.

Celeste's vision comes from one person who themselves were not sure of their identity, and so the themes are what they are but it's a game at its core.

Yes, it is a game at its core, but it does not make Celeste any less valuable at what it set to do. I say this, and I am not even a fan of the game. I know it's a great game, but not my type of platforming. There are times where an IP, movie, game, anime/manga, or book can transcend its medium and become something even more astonishing. Those are usually much rarer, but an amazing once in a lifetime event.

Andrew Tate Is Suing 2 Women Who Accused Him of Human Trafficking for $5 Million

Tate and his brother Tristan claim a Florida woman and a British woman colluded to get them charged in Romania.

jezebel.com

Fuck off, Tate Bros! You have no moral ground to stand on at all. Repent for your sins!

I firmly believe that the current inability to have any ambiguity without controversy and there needing to be a strict canon at all times is down to test based educational policies (No Child Left Behind) where there can be only one correct answer, and Cinamasins style "criticism" becoming popular. The movie can only have One Correct Interpretation and anything else is just a fan theory lest it get a ding and be considered a plot hole

Dude, I've been on Cinema Sins case since 2016, and pointed this out years ago. The moment his ego grew big, and Jeremy started beef with Honest Trailers (who I have my own problems with at times), I knew he needed to be dropped hard. What does not help matters, was him hiding behind "it's satire" to deflect any criticism. Now every hack, charlatan, and shit head does the same and follow his lead some type of way. If there is any good out of this, is that not everyone bought into it, and plenty of other legit critics of any type of media/genre proved you don't need all that.

Then again Cinema Sin's style of "film criticism" goes back to the problems of late 2000s/early 2010s angry reviewing. So it is not surprising of how worse something like that can get when left unchecked.