Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

XsjadoBlaydette

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Oh it was as guessed. Nevermind. Pro tip: terms are used differently in other parts of world with different histories, also it makes no difference to the brutality of this ongoing genocide of civilians either way. Genocide is no less awful just cause a particular murder site had a name that confuses certain western assumptions.
 
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Ag3ma

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Actually, my point was escalation is matched with escalation.
Okay...

This was the direct consequence...
Well, this lot seems to be going well beyond that point.

From my quick read it seems to be a discussion about neo-fascists, curiously missing out some distinctly relevant descriptions of Hamas and Russia, neither of which are exactly short on qualities we'd associate with fascism.

Never mind the fact I do distinctly remember that this current shitshow was kicked off by Hamas killing ~1300-400 Israelis... of which only 300 or so were military. And of those 1000+ civilians, there's not even the thin excuse that there was a valid military target and they just happened to be collateral damage so they could take out a high-ranking officer. Never mind that there is credible evidence that some of what they did to those civilians was utterly repugnant, and well beyond just killing them.

Thus you're not just arguing escalation is matched with escalation. You're essentially justifying Russia in one conflict and Hamas in the other, which seems inevitably down the basic deciding factor that whoever opposes the USA is the good guy, and it's just a case of rhetorically covering up how abhorrent they may be to help make it stick.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Never mind the fact I do distinctly remember that this current shitshow was kicked off by Hamas killing ~1300-400 Israelis...
not really, though. that's just the point at which Western media decided killings in Palestine were newsworthy.
 

Satinavian

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Never mind the fact I do distinctly remember that this current shitshow was kicked off by Hamas killing ~1300-400 Israelis... of which only 300 or so were military. And of those 1000+ civilians, there's not even the thin excuse that there was a valid military target and they just happened to be collateral damage so they could take out a high-ranking officer. Never mind that there is credible evidence that some of what they did to those civilians was utterly repugnant, and well beyond just killing them.
With 300 of 1400 dead being military, the Hamas has a way better ratio of targeting military than the IDF.

Now we don't really have numbers of killed Hamas. But we can compare the ratio of children killed by the IDF to the ratio of children living in Gaza. As children can be assumed to be all civilians, we can somewhat extrapolate how much the IDF bothers to target Hamas members vs. how it is is just killing randomly everyone living in Gaza. And the numbers result in "pretty much randomly".

It seems like an effort to exterminate a portion of the Gaza population big enough to justify the bloodlust of current politics, not an effort to destroy Hamas with collateral damage.

And that is why i would judge the IDF here worse than the Hamas who seems to have at least tried to treat soldiers as primary targets for killing. What else is there is there to say, ehen Israel is not only murdering more civillians than Hamas in absolute but also relative numbers by far ?


You could say that the one thing that Hamas does and Israel didn't was the hostage taking, but even that seems sketchy with several hundreds of random arrests of "Hamas-terrorists" in the West-bank of all places. If Hamas had had that many active personal there, they would actually used them when they tried to escalate the conflict.
 
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Ag3ma

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what is facile is letting Israel pretend history began on October 7.
Sure. But nor is it useful to pretend that along the vast and winding path of historical cause and effect that certain events don't stand out as having particularly notable repercussions just because some other events happened beforehand.
 

Thaluikhain

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With 300 of 1400 dead being military, the Hamas has a way better ratio of targeting military than the IDF.

Now we don't really have numbers of killed Hamas. But we can compare the ratio of children killed by the IDF to the ratio of children living in Gaza. As children can be assumed to be all civilians, we can somewhat extrapolate how much the IDF bothers to target Hamas members vs. how it is is just killing randomly everyone living in Gaza. And the numbers result in "pretty much randomly".

It seems like an effort to exterminate a portion of the Gaza population big enough to justify the bloodlust of current politics, not an effort to destroy Hamas with collateral damage.

And that is why i would judge the IDF here worse than the Hamas who seems to have at least tried to treat soldiers as primary targets for killing. What else is there is there to say, ehen Israel is not only murdering more civillians than Hamas in absolute but also relative numbers by far ?


You could say that the one thing that Hamas does and Israel didn't was the hostage taking, but even that seems sketchy with several hundreds of random arrests of "Hamas-terrirists" in the West-bank of all places. If Hamas had had that many active personal there, they would actually used them when they tried to escalate the conflict.
One also might note that the IDF has the sophisticated firepower to make attacking specific targets much more viable,
 

Silvanus

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what is facile is letting Israel pretend history began on October 7.
Do you believe that October 7th represents no particular milestone or meaningful event? That the state of conflict on October 7th was the same as it was on October 6th?

Because for context, Hamas killed more civilians in <2 days than there were civilians killed in the last 5 /years/ of the Donbas conflict. Yet we have people here insisting the latter constitutes a grotesque one-sided escalation by the occupied party, which justifies the occupying force launching a massive retaliatory invasion... and simultaneously arguing that the former doesn't constitute escalation at all, and responsibility for the retaliation rests on the occupier.

To be clear: absolutely none of this is to absolve Israel or the IDF. Their retaliation dwarfs anything Hamas did, and their invasion is wholly unjustifiable and war-criminal-- the actions of Hamas on 7/10 do not justify it in the goddamn least. I'd just like some consistency: supposed escalation from the occupied party does not, ever, justify genocidal retaliation/ invasion from the occupying force. It doesn't depend on whether the occupier/invader dislikes the US.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Yet we have people here insisting the latter constitutes a grotesque one-sided escalation by the occupied party
The occupied party was the Donbass separatists by the Kiev coup regime, now go pollute the other thread where this is relevant.
 

Silvanus

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The occupied party was the Donbass separatists by the Kiev coup regime
I have yet to see a single sentence from you that's any more applicable to the Ukrainian government than Hamas. Hamas seized complete power from its agreement with Fatah, with Israel's assistance-- There's your "coup regime", only that descriptor is far more applicable to Hamas, because Zelenskyy's party wasn't even involved in the supposed "coup" and was freely elected later. Whereas... Hamas directly orchestrated its power seizure (alongside Israel), and has never subsequently allowed a vote.

And the notion of a government being the occupying force for.... it's own internationally recognised territory is just utterly facile. For let's not forget that Donbas overwhelmingly voted for "Ukrainian independence" with the rest of Russia, and Russia swore to respect those borders.

You apply the arguments without consistency. Exactly the same propaganda narratives that you'll rightly condemn in one instance, you'll cheerfully parrot elsewhere. Its all so hollow.

now go pollute the other thread where this is relevant.
The mercenary nature of your support is unfortunately relevant, because it ultimately harms the cause. What's needed is principled opposition to invasion/occupation/genocide rather than muckracking dependent on whether one of the sides likes the US or not.
 
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Gergar12

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Fuck.....

you beat me to it.


Meanwhile in the West Bank.
 

Cheetodust

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Cool. Not letting our citizens leave while they bomb the place indiscriminately. Wonder if Ursula Von Der Leyen still stands with Israel? Also wonder if Joe Biden will still pull his "I'm Irish crap".

Also to be clear the Irish media keeps referring to them as "Irish passport holders" rather than citizens. Because the Irish media are scum.