If DeSantis wins

[Silvanus]

Source?

The Emperor Elagabalus requested to be termed the equivalent of 'wife' and 'lady'.

But if you look it up, there are loads of examples in Indian, Thai, native American, Tongan and other cultural histories of people explicitly defying gender roles and identifying as a gender distinct from their birth/biological sex.

Nobody is looking at someone's birth certificate to determine what pronoun to use.

My point exactly.

Who says? I have no reason to believe the use of pronouns is or should be tied to gender identity. The definitions refer to sex, not gender. Why is one side magically right and the other side wrong?

You tell me-- you're insistent that one way is right and the other wrong as well.

The only difference is that yours is based on mutable physical characteristics which even by your own admission aren't always visible or considered. Whereas mine is based on self-identity.

 

[Majestic_Manatee]

The liberals did a gender did a gender they did do. Our world is coming to an end now I don't know where to poo

 

[Gordon_4]

So currently prepping a new hospital to go live and because of the stupid gender stuff, the bathrooms are now labelled male/female instead of the normal men/women because people don't understand what a man and woman are anymore...

View attachment 10328

Most toilets I’ve seen in the wild for the past fifteen or so years have been labelled like that. Assuming they bothered and didn’t just use symbols and call it a day.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

The Emperor Elagabalus requested to be termed the equivalent of 'wife' and 'lady'.

But if you look it up, there are loads of examples in Indian, Thai, native American, Tongan and other cultural histories of people explicitly defying gender roles and identifying as a gender distinct from their birth/biological sex.



My point exactly.



You tell me-- you're insistent that one way is right and the other wrong as well.

The only difference is that yours is based on mutable physical characteristics which even by your own admission aren't always visible or considered. Whereas mine is based on self-identity.

You said biological or sex at birth, they're the same thing...

I'm not saying one way is right. The definitions say it's sex. You don't seem to understand why people would have a different point of view on it. You said "I have no reason to believe the use of pronouns is or should be tied to biological sex rather than gender identity." How don't you? Literally the definitions say so. Why is it so immutable that pronouns are gender-based? Why can't you let people use pronouns how they feel they should be used?

 

[Satinavian]

Tons of kids didn't return to school.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-02-09/the-pandemic-missing-the-kids-who-didnt-go-back-to-school

If the kids in your country didn't return, that is just another point where the US utterly failed and embarrased itself.

And now you are argueing not in favor of measures to bring them back but of measures to get them into full-time work instead of school.

 

[Silvanus]

You said biological or sex at birth, they're the same thing...

Well, no, they're not quite the same thing.

Biological sex is delineated by several indicators: genitalia, body morphology (breasts, hips, etc), hormones (estrogen, testosterone etc), reproductive organs, and chromosomes.

Most of those can be changed: genitalia, morphology, hormones.

The ones that cannot be fully/ effectively changed (reproductive organs like the womb, chromosomes) are already recognised as not definitive or required to be a certain sex. Hence why there are cis women without a functioning womb, and cis men without the 'male'-typical chromosomes.

I'm not saying one way is right. The definitions say it's sex.

"I'm not saying one way is right. One way is right".

 

[Phoenixmgs]

If the kids in your country didn't return, that is just another point where the US utterly failed and embarrased itself.

And now you are argueing not in favor of measures to bring them back but of measures to get them into full-time work instead of school.

Many people said during the pandemic that keeping kids out of school was stupid, but no one would listen to the actual science when the rest of the world did.

For the kids that didn't come back to school, don't you think it would be better for them to have like a normal job at McDonalds vs something under-the-table or selling drugs or something not official basically?

Well, no, they're not quite the same thing.

Biological sex is delineated by several indicators: genitalia, body morphology (breasts, hips, etc), hormones (estrogen, testosterone etc), reproductive organs, and chromosomes.

Most of those can be changed: genitalia, morphology, hormones.

The ones that cannot be fully/ effectively changed (reproductive organs like the womb, chromosomes) are already recognised as not definitive or required to be a certain sex. Hence why there are cis women without a functioning womb, and cis men without the 'male'-typical chromosomes.



"I'm not saying one way is right. One way is right".

Sex at birth error rate is what? That's what sex at birth is, biological sex.
Based on an inspection of the baby's external genitalia by a relative, midwife, nurse, or physician, sex is assigned without ambiguity in 99.95% of births.

I'm fine with either way. That's just an argument for why one would say pronouns are sex-based because that's what the definitions are. You, on the other hand, don't seem open to letting people use pronouns based on sex. Why can't people use pronouns the way they want to?

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Selling drugs is a noble community service. Not all heroes wear capes. Some just have inner lined pockets full of baggies.

 

[gorfias]

Things are not looking good for him.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/17/politics/chief-strategist-for-pro-desantis-super-pac-resigns/index.html

Some analysis

 

[Satinavian]

Many people said during the pandemic that keeping kids out of school was stupid, but no one would listen to the actual science when the rest of the world did.

School didn't stop, even during lockdown. I remember that here remote schooling happened instead. Everyone hated it because it certainly was cumbersome and the children missed interactions with their friends, but there certainly was no allowence for any gap in gouvenment provided education of children. Still mandatory for everyone.

For the kids that didn't come back to school, don't you think it would be better for them to have like a normal job at McDonalds vs something under-the-table or selling drugs or something not official basically?

I would sooner have them dragged back to school. By police, if necessary. Dropping out must not be allowed.


Proud citicen of a country where homeschooling is illegal.

 

[Chimpzy]

Proud citicen of a country where homeschooling is illegal.

Over here homeschooling is allowed. But fairly rare at around 0,2-0,3% of students, and most of them for medical reasons that would preclude going to a regular school. Subject to surprise inspections and the same attainment targets regular students are (i.e. they have to take education commission approved exams). Also, no dropping out, education is compulsory until 18, whether you get a degree or not.

 

[Silvanus]

Sex at birth error rate is what?
That's what sex at birth is, biological sex.
Based on an inspection of the baby's external genitalia by a relative, midwife, nurse, or physician, sex is assigned without ambiguity in 99.95% of births.

....and then another percent of those people grow up to recognise it doesn't fit with their identity. There's only that low an error rate if you pre-emptively assume the correctness of the assignment and then ignore those who say it was mismatched. In short, you're using circular logic.

I attended a talk by an intersex speaker once, which dealt with the assignment of sex at birth. Did you know that in a lot of cases, if the genitalia was indeterminate, the policy was to just assign female because a vagina is easier to surgically 'fix' than a penis? That's the level of sophistication in use less than 20 years ago. And the speaker, who was a victim of this legal (mal)practice, only discovered it by chance, decades later--- others would be unrecorded as intersex, just "female'. They'd be included in your high "success rate".

I'm fine with either way. That's just an argument for why one would say pronouns are sex-based because that's what the definitions are. You, on the other hand, don't seem open to letting people use pronouns based on sex. Why can't people use pronouns the way they want to?

People can use pronouns the way they want to-- their own pronouns. They can't force them onto others.

You're the one who's denying the right of people to use pronouns how they want, by insisting your image of someone else overrides their self-identity.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

School didn't stop, even during lockdown. I remember that here remote schooling happened instead. Everyone hated it because it certainly was cumbersome and the children missed interactions with their friends, but there certainly was no allowence for any gap in gouvenment provided education of children. Still mandatory for everyone.
I would sooner have them dragged back to school. By police, if necessary. Dropping out must not be allowed.


Proud citicen of a country where homeschooling is illegal.

Yes, out of physical school for 18 months was horrible for kids, you think I didn't know there was remote school? Last Week Tonight just recently did an episode on homeschooling and they mentioned that kids that are homeschooled are at much greater risk for child abuse because, you know, no other adults see them regularly. Guess what happened during the pandemic when kids were out of school for 18 months? But John Oliver isn't going to touch that with a 10 foot pool now is he? No Gap? What about the 100s of thousands of kids that didn't return to school when it reopened?

When people post this thing about Florida and act how stupid it is and act like republicans want kids less safe, it's quite hilarious. Sure, I'm not for most of the changes. However, if I'm voting on children safety alone and have to choose a democrat or republican, democratic policies have made kids more unsafe than republicans overall. Look at the forest, not the trees.

Well, in America, you have the freedom to raise your kid how you want.

....and then another percent of those people grow up to recognise it doesn't fit with their identity. There's only that low an error rate if you pre-emptively assume the correctness of the assignment and then ignore those who say it was mismatched. In short, you're using circular logic.

I attended a talk by an intersex speaker once, which dealt with the assignment of sex at birth. Did you know that in a lot of cases, if the genitalia was indeterminate, the policy was to just assign female because a vagina is easier to surgically 'fix' than a penis? That's the level of sophistication in use less than 20 years ago. And the speaker, who was a victim of this legal (mal)practice, only discovered it by chance, decades later--- others would be unrecorded as intersex, just "female'. They'd be included in your high "success rate".



People can use pronouns the way they want to-- their own pronouns. They can't force them onto others.

You're the one who's denying the right of people to use pronouns how they want, by insisting your image of someone else overrides their self-identity.

That doesn't mean their actual sex has changed. Sex at birth is attempting to figure out biological sex simply and quickly, they are in essence the same thing (just one process isn't perfect), which you said it wasn't.

Pronouns aren't squarely your own, that's the thing.

 

[Hades]

When people post this thing about Florida and act how stupid it is and act like republicans want kids less safe, it's quite hilarious. Sure, I'm not for most of the changes. However, if I'm voting on children safety alone and have to choose a democrat or republican, democratic policies have made kids more unsafe than republicans overall. Look at the forest, not the trees.

Given the topic of guns alone I already doubt that statement immensely. That's a pretty gigantic tree already.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Given the topic of guns alone I already doubt that statement immensely. That's a pretty gigantic tree already.

Illinois has like all the gun laws (even had unconstitutional ones for a time) and has more children guns deaths per capita than Texas.

Illinois - The Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence

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efsgv.org

Texas - The Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence

—Meta description not set.

efsgv.org

 

[Silvanus]

That doesn't mean their actual sex has changed. Sex at birth is attempting to figure out biological sex simply and quickly, they are in essence the same thing (just one process isn't perfect), which you said it wasn't.

You seem to have just entirely missed the point of bringing up the example. You said the success rate is 99.95 or something. I pointed out that that supposed success rate is including people like the intersex person in question, for whom the process absolutely was not successful.

Pronouns aren't squarely your own, that's the thing.

You have zero ownership or claim to someone else's identity.

 

[Satinavian]

You seem to have just entirely missed the point of bringing up the example. You said the success rate is 99.95 or something. I pointed out that that supposed success rate is including people like the intersex person in question, for whom the process absolutely was not successful.

Just a general friendly reminder that some countries nowadays don't mark intersex people as male or female on birth certificates and thus have three official sex categories for those documents.

(And no, i won't touch the discussion about gender and pronouns. That has all been rehashed ad nauseum. English isn't my first language anyway.)

Well, in America, you have the freedom to raise your kid how you want.

Which some parents don't do properly and thus you get kids dealing drugs instead of going to school.

 

[tstorm823]

You have zero ownership or claim to someone else's identity.

Everyone totally does have partial claim on everyone else's identity. Identity is the sum of things which distinguish you from others. The decisions and attributes of others define the ways in which one can be distinguished from them.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

You seem to have just entirely missed the point of bringing up the example. You said the success rate is 99.95 or something. I pointed out that that supposed success rate is including people like the intersex person in question, for whom the process absolutely was not successful.



You have zero ownership or claim to someone else's identity.

You keep trying to change the discussion to something else. Even the Florida bill doesn't include those with sex ambiguity, your intersex person wouldn't even fall under it. Point is biological sex and sex at birth are essentially the same thing.

Biology is claiming the sex of someone. If you're male or female, that's what you are. I can't just say I'm female and expect everyone to go along with it the same way I can't identify as being black or Asian and expect people to go along with it.

Which some parents don't do properly and thus you get kids dealing drugs instead of going to school.

And? Raising a kid properly is very subjective, hence why you don't police that outside of very egregious instances obviously. Two kids can be raised exactly the same and one winds up a doctor and another a gang banger. You see this all the time with siblings, raised in the same household and they turn out rather differently. Don't know how your statement applies to homeschooling though.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Why can't people use pronouns the way they want to?

See, Florida is trying to ban people from using pronouns how they want to