Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Silvanus]

I see parallels with Pakistan and India and think they are happier being apart. They just didn't get along together.

So, a two-state solution, then. Unless what you actually mean is "happier being apart, and also one side unilaterally gives up everything".

But they do seem to have whole ingested what Hamas is: putting killing Jews ahead of having good, happy, healthy lives for themselves (hence, Hamastinians).

Hmm, do they? There hasn't been an election since 2006, and that one resulted in no overall majority. And of the Palestinians there today, the median age adult wasn't alive in 2006, so has never had a chance to vote.

And, of course, the Israeli government has slaughtered many more ordinary civilians. So are you willing to make the same judgement on civilians there too?

What you're really doing here is just minimising/excusing violence against civilians through baseless demonisation.

 

[gorfias]

Easier solution: dismantle the Israeli apartheid state, stop the ethnic cleansing, respect the right of return, and let all within the borders of Palestine have equal rights.

Ah, reward Muslim aggression by putting Jews on a path to genocide.


The Israeli state has as much right to exist as any other nation on the region (and more than a "free Palestine" as there has never been such a state) and they tried to wipe it out at inception. Such aggression has costs.

If you would want to go the Pakistan-India route, that would mean the Palestinians get a proper state with full sovereignty and all the Israeli settlers get expulsed from land beyond Israels internationally recognized borders.

Yes, they would certainly be happier with that.

AND

So, a two-state solution, then. Unless what you actually mean is "happier being apart, and also one side unilaterally gives up everything".

Hmm, do they? There hasn't been an election since 2006, and that one resulted in no overall majority. And of the Palestinians there today, the median age adult wasn't alive in 2006, so has never had a chance to vote.

And, of course, the Israeli government has slaughtered many more ordinary civilians. So are you willing to make the same judgement on civilians there too?

What you're really doing here is just minimising/excusing violence against civilians through baseless demonisation.

And that's been offered and rejected. There's a cost to unilaterally failing to even make a counter offer to so called "generous offer". Had it been up to me, Isreal would have been annexing a miles or two of Gaza per a given period (year?) to telegraph that being a failing aggressor has costs.

Baseless? That population made an overwhelming decision that it was more important to them to deny Jews one state they had a right to over peacefully coexisting.

 

[tstorm823]

Ah, reward Muslim aggression by putting Jews on a path to genocide.

I want to assure you that Seanchaidh is not specifically interested in the genocide of Jews. It's not like that...

Seanchaidh is interested in suicidally self-destructive anti-American people taking over the resources of a world power with nuclear weapons in the hope of breaking US hegemony through the death of millions.

 

[Satinavian]

And that's been offered and rejected.

Everything has been offered and rejected at least once. Israel taking more land has obviously been rejected as well. If that alone would be reason to not do something.

While a proper two state solution has no full agreement, it is still, by far, the solution with the most support. It is either two state or no solution ever. And the world is growing fed up with Israel pushing "no solution ever".

There's a cost to unilaterally failing to even make a counter offer to so called "generous offer"

Really ? Not giving offers you like is justification for punishment now ? Utter nonsense.

Had it been up to me, Isreal would have been annexing a miles or two of Gaza per a given period (year?) to telegraph that being a failing aggressor has costs.

Luckily it isn't.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I want to assure you that Seanchaidh is not specifically interested in the genocide of Jews. It's not like that...

Seanchaidh is interested in suicidally self-destructive anti-American people taking over the resources of a world power with nuclear weapons in the hope of breaking US hegemony through the death of millions.

one would think that you'd learn from countless experiences that you are beyond terrible at guessing what people think. or even reading it. my genuine advice to you is to stop participating in political discussions at all until you learn how to do something other than generate meaningless noise and pointless distraction. people do not come here to watch a monkey smearing shit on himself.

The Israeli state has as much right to exist as any other nation on the region (and more than a "free Palestine" as there has never been such a state) and they tried to wipe it out at inception. Such aggression has costs.

well, you certainly downed all the koolaid. but no, Israel has no right to exist whatsoever and it frankly doesn't matter whether there has been "such a state" as Palestine, though there has: theft from the stateless is still theft. Israel was built with massacres and ethnic cleansing.

 

[gorfias]

one would think that you'd learn from countless experiences that you are beyond terrible at guessing what people think. or even reading it. my genuine advice to you is to stop participating in political discussions at all until you learn how to do something other than generate meaningless noise and pointless distraction. people do not come here to watch a monkey smearing shit on himself.



well, you certainly downed all the koolaid. but no, Israel has no right to exist whatsoever and it frankly doesn't matter whether there has been "such a state" as Palestine, though there has: theft from the stateless is still theft. Israel was built with massacres and ethnic cleansing.

Lost me at, "Isreal has no right to exist" and that fighting back from those trying to murder you is "theft".

 

[Seanchaidh]

Lost me at, "Isreal has no right to exist" and that fighting back from those trying to murder you is "theft".

Theft is theft. Murder is murder. Palestinians have had a right to resist the theft of their land from Israel since the beginning of Israel. They have had a right to resist the murders and massacres perpetrated by Israel since the beginning of Israel.

 

[Silvanus]

And that's been offered and rejected. There's a cost to unilaterally failing to even make a counter offer to so called "generous offer".
Had it been up to me, Isreal would have been annexing a miles or two of Gaza per a given period (year?) to telegraph that being a failing aggressor has costs.

So, genocidal conquest and slaughter, then. Why did you even pretend earlier that you were interested in humanitarianism or the prevention of suffering?

Baseless? That population made an overwhelming decision that it was more important to them to deny Jews one state they had a right to over peacefully coexisting.

The population made that decision, did they? When and how? Because it wasn't in the 2006 vote, in which most present Palestinians could not have voted, and they've never been given a vote since.

This is by-the-numbers racial demonisation, both morally and logically dogshit.

 

[Hades]

What if Ukraine disarms militarily? So what? Japan had to do so for 70 years and appears to be doing dandy. The parallels are there.

Japan didn't demilitarize at a time when a neighbor wanted to destroy, annex and ethnically cleanse them. The parallel would be if Korea disarmed its military on the eve of the Japanese invasion. Russia wants Ukraine to disarm so Ukraine can't defend itself from their imperial land grabs.

Y'know what happens to the Ukrainians themselves if there is peace?

Depends on the peace. If its ''peace'' on Russia's terms they're gonna be subjugated and butchered. It its peace on Ukraine's terms then Ukraine gets to exist as an independent country.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Ah, reward Muslim aggression by putting Jews on a path to genocide.

What, Arabs need to be happy after being ethnically cleansed from the lands they live in, but it's unacceptable for Jews? You see the clear double standard here, right?

More likely it'll turn into a South Africa situation, where white supremacists are constantly pissed off, but 80% of the white people stuck around

 

[tstorm823]

one would think that you'd learn from countless experiences that you are beyond terrible at guessing what people think. or even reading it. my genuine advice to you is to stop participating in political discussions at all until you learn how to do something other than generate meaningless noise and pointless distraction. people do not come here to watch a monkey smearing shit on himself.

Remember that time you supported Palestine because of the war crimes against them, while also supporting Russia's war crimes and denying China has committed any crimes in the first place. It is painfully obvious what drives your opinions on geopolitical issues.

If you could just stop spamming Twitter propaganda and go back to being absent permanently instead of just for a few months, that would be a huge boon for the forum.

 

[Seanchaidh]

shh

 

[gorfias]

Theft is theft. Murder is murder. Palestinians have had a right to resist the theft of their land from Israel since the beginning of Israel. They have had a right to resist the murders and massacres perpetrated by Israel since the beginning of Israel.

I see them as in common cause with multiple armies that sought to destroy Israel at its inception. That has costs and consequences.

So, genocidal conquest and slaughter, then. Why did you even pretend earlier that you were interested in humanitarianism or the prevention of suffering?
The population made that decision, did they? When and how? Because it wasn't in the 2006 vote, in which most present Palestinians could not have voted, and they've never been given a vote since.
This is by-the-numbers racial demonisation, both morally and logically dogshit.

Negative conduct must be met with negative response or you get more of that negative thing. Say, "oh sure, keep kidnapping and murdering unarmed athletes and we'll just pout about it" is an invite to even greater aggression.
Had Israel forced the dispersion of the Hamastinians in 2006 to the 40+ Muslim majority nations, I bet lives would have, over all, been saved. They're lack of action has actually perpetuated suffering. Finally, it is time to stop that.

What, Arabs need to be happy after being ethnically cleansed from the lands they live in, but it's unacceptable for Jews? You see the clear double standard here, right?

More likely it'll turn into a South Africa situation, where white supremacists are constantly pissed off, but 80% of the white people stuck around

There is 1 Jewish state, 40+ Muslim majority nations.
In normal demographics, there should be some 400 million Jews. There are 15 million. People keep trying to genocide us.
Take off the ideological blinders and see the very obvious difference in needs in this situation.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

There is 1 Jewish state, 40+ Muslim majority nations.
In normal demographics, there should be some 400 million Jews. There are 15 million. People keep trying to genocide us.
Take off the ideological blinders and see the very obvious difference in needs in this situation.

There are 100+ secular nations Jews can move to instead of forcing millions of people out of lands they've been living in for generations if they feel unsafe. You live in one

Why must Arabs find happiness in being ethnically cleansed from their homeland? Why can't Jews be happy here? Like, if you're shooting for safety, *clearly* y'all done fucked up, with your settler state not knowing peace for nearly a century after moving in and displacing millions.

Israel is going to stop existing as it is, one way or another. It's gonna have to choose a one state solution or it's going the way of Rhodesia. Take off your ideological blinders and accept that, in order to do what you want to do, you need to kill millions

 

[gorfias]

There are 100+ secular nations Jews can move to instead of forcing millions of people out of lands they've been living in for generations if they feel unsafe. You live in one

Why must Arabs find happiness in being ethnically cleansed from their homeland? Why can't Jews be happy here? Like, if you're shooting for safety, *clearly* y'all done fucked up, with your settler state not knowing peace for nearly a century after moving in and displacing millions.

Israel is going to stop existing as it is, one way or another. It's gonna have to choose a one state solution or it's going the way of Rhodesia. Take off your ideological blinders and accept that, in order to do what you want to do, you need to kill millions

I'll have to look up Rhodesia, dunno much about it.
I thought Germany pre 1940 was about as humanist a nation there was. But Jews were not a majority there. In such a nation, they depend upon the good will of the majority of that nation to not be genocided. Sometimes, that isn't enough.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Negative conduct must be met with negative response or you get more of that negative thing.

So, when Israel keeps murdering civilians an annexing lands, the appropriate response should be...?

 

[Silvanus]

Negative conduct must be met with negative response or you get more of that negative thing. Say, "oh sure, keep kidnapping and murdering unarmed athletes and we'll just pout about it" is an invite to even greater aggression.

Collective punishment-- whereby an entire group, including innocent civilians, are held responsible for the actions of a subset-- is explicitly against the Geneva convention. Its a war crime.

You're also applying this standard inconsistently, to one side alone.

Had Israel forced the dispersion of the Hamastinians in 2006 to the 40+ Muslim majority nations, I bet lives would have, over all, been saved. They're lack of action has actually perpetuated suffering. Finally, it is time to stop that.

The vast majority of lives lost are lost to Israel's military actions and illegal settler expansion. So Israel has another option that would also save those lives: stop annexing, invading, and illegally expanding. Allow Palestine to control its own water and resources rather than siphoning them off.

Your option would displace 2-3 million people, cause an unmitigated refugee crisis, destitution, starvation and mass death. The other option wouldn't. If they want to stop the slaughter, they have the ability to do so, without resorting to ethnic cleansing.

Hamastinians

This is racism. Unequivocally, unambiguous, rancid fucking racism.

 

[gorfias]

So, when Israel keeps murdering civilians an annexing lands, the appropriate response should be...?

Depends upon their justification. History, up to 10/7 provides a lot of it. To be kind to the cruel is to be cruel to the kind. How much longer should they have to endure this kind of thing? At what point are we not justified in saying, "Hey, Israel? Your inaction is what is getting your own civilians gang raped and torture murdered."

Collective punishment-- whereby an entire group, including innocent civilians, are held responsible for the actions of a subset-- is explicitly against the Geneva convention. Its a war crime.

You're also applying this standard inconsistently, to one side alone.



The vast majority of lives lost are lost to Israel's military actions and illegal settler expansion. So Israel has another option that would also save those lives: stop annexing, invading, and illegally expanding. Allow Palestine to control its own water and resources rather than siphoning them off.

Your option would displace 2-3 million people, cause an unmitigated refugee crisis, destitution, starvation and mass death. The other option wouldn't. If they want to stop the slaughter, they have the ability to do so, without resorting to ethnic cleansing.



This is racism. Unequivocally, unambiguous, rancid fucking racism.

Any nation with a government that engages in an aggressive war of destruction risks having their own civilian population harmed and even killed.
You do give definite great answers to why the Hamastinians should have sued for peace a long time ago. Instead, when the great offer was made, preferring war and death, they made no counter offer.
With 40+ Muslim majority nations out there, a dispersal of the Hamastinians should not be a big deal if done in an orderly fashion.
When I use the term "Hamastinian" I am not referring to a race but a genocidal political ideology. Calling someone, for instance, a Nazi, is not racism against, say, Germans.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Depends upon their justification. History, up to 10/7 provides a lot of it. To be kind to the cruel is to be cruel to the kind. How much longer should they have to endure this kind of thing? At what point are we not justified in saying, "Hey, Israel? Your inaction is what is getting your own civilians gang raped and torture murdered."

Inaction, as in killing rather more Palestinians and stealing their land? You are, very blatantly, giving Israel a free pass for killing more people than you condemn Palestinians for killing.

 

[gorfias]

Inaction, as in killing rather more Palestinians and stealing their land? You are, very blatantly, giving Israel a free pass for killing more people than you condemn Palestinians for killing.

“Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” I've never understood the call for "proportionate responses". You have a belligerent trying to steal land Jews have every right to call their own and make their own nation and turn those Jews into 2nd class citizens. The belligerent always, always, always had the option to knock it off. Then every other thing you blame on Israel, I have to think, would have stopped as well.