If DeSantis wins

Phoenixmgs

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Tell you what. You go and read up a bit more on what Rule of Law means - there are plenty of internet resources - and then maybe you come back and compose a new argument.



The rioters who invaded the Capitol in pursuit of his aims were definitely not following legal means, were they?

Although judging by the series of cases currently laid out against him, I don't think Trump was remotely picky about whether his schemes to overturn the election were legal or not.



Completely and absolutely wrong. There was plentiful evidence of suspicious communications between Trump and his team and Russians. That's why there was a such an issue. The evidence was not deemed sufficient to pursue a case against him.
How was what the BLM protesters wanted anything along the lines of "foundation for healthy communities of justice, opportunity, and peace"? Are you telling me their tagline is complete opposite of the actual Rule of Law?

It's not about the rioters, it's what Trump did. Just because people didn't riot over what the democrats and media did, doesn't change how bad what they did was. Again, I'm done with the crying wolf over Trump, until he's actually convicted of something, then I'm pretty much done caring. You cry and moan for 3 years over Trump-Russia collusion when it was all a lie, I'm not gonna believe anything else until actual convictions.

The Clinton campaign was literally the source and it was a lie.
 

Ag3ma

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How was what the BLM protesters wanted anything along the lines of "foundation for healthy communities of justice, opportunity, and peace"? Are you telling me their tagline is complete opposite of the actual Rule of Law?
I see that given a choice, you chose gratuitous ignorance.

It's not about the rioters, it's what Trump did.
Oh, but it is about what the rioters did: they stormed the Capitol and attempted to disrupt the election of the president.

then I'm pretty much done caring.
Great: so stop bothering everyone else. Seriously. Put that lack of care into practice, walk the fuck away and stop blathering facile "but both sides..." platitudes into threads when you have no interest in engaging with what other people are discussing.
 

Silvanus

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That's moot because you can't use both definitions at the same time anyway. Appearance does in 99+% of the time.
Lol, remember a few pages earlier when you outlined that you usually use sex, but have various exceptions?

But you're simply not ascribing identity if you use pronouns based on sex. That's an objective fact you keep trying to wiggle your way out of.
Because its not an objective fact.

No they're not. Or if they are then the lawyers are rather dumb to not appeal.
So you genuinely think every federal law and/or constitutional provision has been ruled on by the Supreme Court? And if not, that they're not actually implemented in the states?
 

Phoenixmgs

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I see that given a choice, you chose gratuitous ignorance.



Oh, but it is about what the rioters did: they stormed the Capitol and attempted to disrupt the election of the president.



Great: so stop bothering everyone else. Seriously. Put that lack of care into practice, walk the fuck away and stop blathering facile "but both sides..." platitudes into threads when you have no interest in engaging with what other people are discussing.
How are the BLM riots anyway in line with "rule of law"? I don't know why you're defending such things is beyond ridiculous and shows your bias.

It's about what the rioters did for only the rioters themselves, not Trump. If people started fighting for their right to party after the Beastie Boys released that song, the Beastie Boys would not be responsible.

You should stop bothering people with misinformation and acting like you know everything. There was no evidence Trump colluded Russia and it was a lie from the start. You've shown you have literally no interest in engaging in an actual discussion because you constantly ignore facts because you simply don't like them.

But, according to Durham, the FBI rushed into the probe without having any evidence that anyone from the Trump campaign had had any contact with any Russian intelligence officers. It identifies by name the Russia experts in the FBI and other agencies who were never consulted before the investigation was begun and says that had they been, they would have said there was no information pointing to a conspiracy between Russia and the campaign.

The report contends that the FBI fell prone to “confirmation bias,” repeatedly ignoring, minimizing or rationalizing away evidence that undercut the premise of collusion, including a conversation in which Papadopoulos vigorously denied knowing about any cooperative relationship between Russia and the Trump campaign.

It also says investigators did not corroborate a “single substantive allegation” in a dossier of Democratic-funded research that was compiled by a former British spy, Christopher Steele, and yet continued to cite it in applications to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to eavesdrop on a former Trump campaign aide, Carter Page.


Lol, remember a few pages earlier when you outlined that you usually use sex, but have various exceptions?



Because its not an objective fact.



So you genuinely think every federal law and/or constitutional provision has been ruled on by the Supreme Court? And if not, that they're not actually implemented in the states?
I said I use the method I described to you probably a million times already.

It is an objective fact. If someone uses sex for pronouns, they literally can't misgender, it is literally impossible.

That's how it works. Why is the Maine case on hold? You just can't admit when you're wrong.
 

Ag3ma

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How are the BLM riots anyway in line with "rule of law"?
<sigh>

To repeat, the Rule of Law is ensuring good processes and institutions to ensure fairness, transparency, accountability etc. in the law. An illegal riot per se is just an illegal act: it doesn't actually have anything to do with how the justice system operates, it doesn't derail normal democratic process.

It's about what the rioters did for only the rioters themselves, not Trump.
Irrespective of Trump, what the rioters did in attacking the Capitol with an intention of disrupting or interfering with the election was an attack on democracy. Arguably, insurrection.

If we then bring in Trump, where does his responsibility, and potential liability, apply? So your analogy about the Beastie Boys has some validity. Where it does not is that Trump was obviously much more intimately involved in the Capitol riot than the Beastie Boys were by merely releasing a song. So, let's imagine the Beastie Boys had released that song, and then spent months stoking grievances and anger in their fans about how unfair it was that they were denied a right to party. Then they arranged a gang of fans to attend a venue for a party, and fired them up beforehand with a speech about their need to fight for a right to party. The venue denied the gang entry because it hadn't been booked for their party, at which point the gang trashed the venue. As the gang did so, the Beastie Boys looked on and laughed.

I know how that would play out in the media and general discussion. I can absolutely bet you that sympathy for the Beastie Boys would be low to none. I suspect a lot of people would be demanding that the Beastie Boys faced some form of sanction, and I can bet you that law agencies would be looking very hard at what they could be charged with.

There was no evidence Trump colluded Russia and it was a lie from the start.
Yeah, but that's not really what was going on.

"Collusion" is the general message successfully inserted into the public mind, but it's not really accurate for the series of concerns. These were: 1) Russian interference with the election, 2) inappropriate contacts between Trump team and Russian officials and 3) obstruction of justice by Trump and team.

If we only look at (2), I think this was put by someone in the CIA or FBI, to paraphrase, "smoke but not fire". Smoke is, however, evidence. Where you bring up the Durham report is that the FBI investigation was excessive given the strength of the evidence, and fair enough. However, the "collusion" simplification you're talking about obscures the fact that much of the problem for Trump was not (2) but (3): it's that he and his team seemed to keep lying about stuff and trying to stop anyone looking at it.
 

Silvanus

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I said I use the method I described to you probably a million times already.
Yep, and repetition doesn't make it any less likely to run headfirst into problems. That is, when you're repeating the same position, rather than shifting it every other post.

It is an objective fact. If someone uses sex for pronouns, they literally can't misgender, it is literally impossible.
Lol OK. And everyone instinctively knows you're referring solely to physical bodies, and not to identity, when you use pronouns, eh?

That's how it works. Why is the Maine case on hold? You just can't admit when you're wrong.
Dude, you have zero comprehension of how your own country's legal framework functions, so its endlessly amusing when you loftily tell others to admit they're wrong. Your ignorance of this is transparent to everyone here.
 

Phoenixmgs

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<sigh>

To repeat, the Rule of Law is ensuring good processes and institutions to ensure fairness, transparency, accountability etc. in the law. An illegal riot per se is just an illegal act: it doesn't actually have anything to do with how the justice system operates, it doesn't derail normal democratic process.



Irrespective of Trump, what the rioters did in attacking the Capitol with an intention of disrupting or interfering with the election was an attack on democracy. Arguably, insurrection.

If we then bring in Trump, where does his responsibility, and potential liability, apply? So your analogy about the Beastie Boys has some validity. Where it does not is that Trump was obviously much more intimately involved in the Capitol riot than the Beastie Boys were by merely releasing a song. So, let's imagine the Beastie Boys had released that song, and then spent months stoking grievances and anger in their fans about how unfair it was that they were denied a right to party. Then they arranged a gang of fans to attend a venue for a party, and fired them up beforehand with a speech about their need to fight for a right to party. The venue denied the gang entry because it hadn't been booked for their party, at which point the gang trashed the venue. As the gang did so, the Beastie Boys looked on and laughed.

I know how that would play out in the media and general discussion. I can absolutely bet you that sympathy for the Beastie Boys would be low to none. I suspect a lot of people would be demanding that the Beastie Boys faced some form of sanction, and I can bet you that law agencies would be looking very hard at what they could be charged with.



Yeah, but that's not really what was going on.

"Collusion" is the general message successfully inserted into the public mind, but it's not really accurate for the series of concerns. These were: 1) Russian interference with the election, 2) inappropriate contacts between Trump team and Russian officials and 3) obstruction of justice by Trump and team.

If we only look at (2), I think this was put by someone in the CIA or FBI, to paraphrase, "smoke but not fire". Smoke is, however, evidence. Where you bring up the Durham report is that the FBI investigation was excessive given the strength of the evidence, and fair enough. However, the "collusion" simplification you're talking about obscures the fact that much of the problem for Trump was not (2) but (3): it's that he and his team seemed to keep lying about stuff and trying to stop anyone looking at it.
The rule of law is a durable system of laws, institutions, norms, and community commitment that delivers four universal principles: accountability, just law, open government, and accessible and impartial justice.

So CHAZ/CHOP was able to deliver accessible and impartial justice?

Again, the Beastie Boys wouldn't have been found responsible. People hated (and still hate) Kyle Rittenhouse for some reason and he was acquitted because it was super obvious self-defense. Maybe Trump did or said something I don't know about that is actually something that will get him convicted of insurrection, but from what I've seen, there's not there to merit him being an insurrectionist.

So you actually care that Trump wasn't cooperating when he was being charged with something he didn't do? So a minority being pulled over by a cop without probable cause should also fully cooperate? Seems in direct violation of rule of law (to deliver impartial justice). Trump was investigated without any probable cause or evidence. Why do you even care about (3)? It's hardly important.


Yep, and repetition doesn't make it any less likely to run headfirst into problems. That is, when you're repeating the same position, rather than shifting it every other post.



Lol OK. And everyone instinctively knows you're referring solely to physical bodies, and not to identity, when you use pronouns, eh?



Dude, you have zero comprehension of how your own country's legal framework functions, so its endlessly amusing when you loftily tell others to admit they're wrong. Your ignorance of this is transparent to everyone here.
Run into what problems? What are you even talking about? People have no issue with pronouns on a daily basis.

Why would they assume otherwise when most people use pronouns in that manner?

I know how it does work. And it is literally working like that for the Trump insurrection ballot cases.
 

Ag3ma

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So CHAZ/CHOP was able to deliver accessible and impartial justice?
??? You're talking about an occupation protest. Protests are an act of political expression, not part of running a justice system.

Again, the Beastie Boys wouldn't have been found responsible.
You say this on the basis of what, exactly? Incitement - to violence, riot, etc. - is a crime in most jurisdictions.

So you actually care that Trump wasn't cooperating when he was being charged with something he didn't do?
Yes. Transparency and accountability is essential. People with great power should not be able to cover stuff up, because they have the power to commit great abuses. Why do you think so much government business is recorded, that politicians are expected to not run government business out of personal emails and on easily-deleted Whatsapp chat threads?

Trump was not charged with something he didn't do. He and members of his team were investigated due to evidence of suspicious activity. Let's imagine that the police enter someone's house because of reports of domestic violence. They find out that the suspect is not committing DV, but does have several grams of cocaine on the coffee table. Are you seriously arguing that the suspect cannot be arrested for possession of an illegal drug because the police called to investigate a different crime that the suspect didn't do?

So a minority being pulled over by a cop without probable cause should also fully cooperate?
Absolutely anyone who refuses to co-operate with the authorities in a way that breaks the law can risk the consequences of breaking the law. I might, in some circumstances, be sympathetic to the person not co-operating with the cops, mind.

Seems in direct violation of rule of law (to deliver impartial justice). Trump was investigated without any probable cause or evidence.
??? Impartial justice means people not having undue bias in a case. It doesn't mean accidentally investigating something more than the evidence warranted.

Why do you even care about (3)? It's hardly important.
See above, accountability. If your politicians cannot be held accountable, why should they not just sell you out for a $10 million bung?
 

Asita

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Beastie Boys wouldn't be charged for anything if people actually started fighting for their right to party.
Barring unstated circumstances? No shit, Sherlock. That would be because of a little thing called context and a legal concept called the "reasonable person". To make a long story short, a reasonable person is a hypothetical that is summed up as "what would an average person reasonably think/do under these circumstances". An evocative example would be that a reasonable person would expect an official contract promising a million dollars for services rendered to be legally binding, but a reasonable person would not expect a drunk yelling a challenge of "I'll give a million dollars to anyone who can name this song" in a bar to be legally binding. This isn't some technicality or unknown concept, it's one of the goddamn backbones of the legal system. And while I have little doubt that you'll try anyway, the simple fact of the matter is there is no way to seriously argue that a reasonable person would interpret the Beastie Boy's song as a call to action under the stated circumstances.

Conversely, a reasonable person would interpret Trump's speech at his "Stop the Steal" rally that was explicitly planned and scheduled to immediately precede his base's "Save America" march on the Capitol as a call to action, due to the surrounding circumstances before, during, and after. Let's recap: Setting aside for a minute the call to action in the name of the rally itself, the guy has been claiming almost nonstop since Election Day 2020 that the election should be considered invalid and be overturned, made numerous calls to State legislators telling them to unilaterally overturn the results (and later to decertify them) and declaring them "RINOs" who were letting the Democrats "get away with murder" because they dared to tell him - in no uncertain terms - that he was asking them to do something illegal and they weren't going to break the law by acquiescing. He also filed lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit trying to get the courts to overturn the election, and then held press conference after press conference lying to his base that the courts had clearly never looked at the evidence (when in fact they frequently went into detail about how he was trying to pass speculation and rumormongering off as evidence), and that Trump's legal team - and I quote - "had evidence that the election result was the ‘greatest crime of the century if not the life of the world'". And then of course there's the fake electors plot that was running concurrently. That is the context in which he held his "Stop the Steal" rally and told his attendants that their imminent march on the Capitol was their last chance to make Congress overturn the results, and that if they didn't succeed they wouldn't have a country anymore.

Never mind that it should be self-evident that the lyrics of a hip-hop song intended for popular release (which is to say, explicitly designed purely for entertainment) almost three decades ago is a dramatically different context than a political rally (a endorsement of and demonstration of support for a stated cause) with the explicit purpose of drumming up fervor for the storming of the Capitol that immediately followed that was done with the explicit goal of getting Congress to unilaterally overturn the election results and declare that the rally's central figure would remain in power. Never mind that the man himself would imply later that same day that the violent breach of the Capitol was both predictable and justified retribution for not overturning the results like he and the mob were demanding. To quote: "These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously and viciously stripped away". To try and draw equivalence between all of that and a Beastie Boys song is simply inane.

They are not even close to the same thing and, frankly, I'm gobsmacked that you're either not smart enough to understand that or too much of a disingenuous contrarian to care.
 
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Silvanus

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Run into what problems? What are you even talking about? People have no issue with pronouns on a daily basis.
People who're open and respectful have no issue with pronouns on a daily basis.

But it's pretty easy to get them wrong, if you're just going by appearance, as a lot of people do. And that's usually fine too, if the individual just says, 'oh my mistake'. But if you attribute pronouns to someone that they don't identify with, and then refuse to change them when corrected, then yeah, you'll piss people off for no good reason.

Why would they assume otherwise when most people use pronouns in that manner?
Most people who aren't assholes do not, in fact, insist on calling someone 'he' if they identify as she.

I know how it does work. And it is literally working like that for the Trump insurrection ballot cases.
...after appeal.

You know what appeal means-- you understand that there can't even be an appeal unless there's a prior ruling. Hell, why do you think the State courts were even allowed to pass rulings on it, if the question isn't within their jurisdiction?
 
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Phoenixmgs

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??? You're talking about an occupation protest. Protests are an act of political expression, not part of running a justice system.



You say this on the basis of what, exactly? Incitement - to violence, riot, etc. - is a crime in most jurisdictions.



Yes. Transparency and accountability is essential. People with great power should not be able to cover stuff up, because they have the power to commit great abuses. Why do you think so much government business is recorded, that politicians are expected to not run government business out of personal emails and on easily-deleted Whatsapp chat threads?

Trump was not charged with something he didn't do. He and members of his team were investigated due to evidence of suspicious activity. Let's imagine that the police enter someone's house because of reports of domestic violence. They find out that the suspect is not committing DV, but does have several grams of cocaine on the coffee table. Are you seriously arguing that the suspect cannot be arrested for possession of an illegal drug because the police called to investigate a different crime that the suspect didn't do?



Absolutely anyone who refuses to co-operate with the authorities in a way that breaks the law can risk the consequences of breaking the law. I might, in some circumstances, be sympathetic to the person not co-operating with the cops, mind.



??? Impartial justice means people not having undue bias in a case. It doesn't mean accidentally investigating something more than the evidence warranted.



See above, accountability. If your politicians cannot be held accountable, why should they not just sell you out for a $10 million bung?
Yes, but it actively harmed the ability of the community to have access to and deliver justice. And if BLM got all their demands, that was also be harmful in the same regard as well.

If releasing a song like that is consider a crime, you wouldn't have songs like that released.

Dude, THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE. There was no probable cause.That is a fact. And the fact that someone is giving the police the middle finger in such a situation is so low on my priority list of things to care about honestly.

The Durham Report specifically stated there was extreme bias in the investigation.

A politician being held accountable for something and them giving the middle finger to some baseless claims to the police are 2 rather different things.

Barring unstated circumstances? No shit, Sherlock. That would be because of a little thing called context and a legal concept called the "reasonable person". To make a long story short, a reasonable person is a hypothetical that is summed up as "what would an average person reasonably think/do under these circumstances". An evocative example would be that a reasonable person would expect an official contract promising a million dollars for services rendered to be legally binding, but a reasonable person would not expect a drunk yelling a challenge of "I'll give a million dollars to anyone who can name this song" in a bar to be legally binding. This isn't some technicality or unknown concept, it's one of the goddamn backbones of the legal system. And while I have little doubt that you'll try anyway, the simple fact of the matter is there is no way to seriously argue that a reasonable person would interpret the Beastie Boy's song as a call to action under the stated circumstances.

Conversely, a reasonable person would interpret Trump's speech at his "Stop the Steal" rally that was explicitly planned and scheduled to immediately precede his base's "Save America" march on the Capitol as a call to action, due to the surrounding circumstances before, during, and after. Let's recap: Setting aside for a minute the call to action in the name of the rally itself, the guy has been claiming almost nonstop since Election Day 2020 that the election should be considered invalid and be overturned, made numerous calls to State legislators telling them to unilaterally overturn the results (and later to decertify them) and declaring them "RINOs" who were letting the Democrats "get away with murder" because they dared to tell him - in no uncertain terms - that he was asking them to do something illegal and they weren't going to break the law by acquiescing. He also filed lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit trying to get the courts to overturn the election, and then held press conference after press conference lying to his base that the courts had clearly never looked at the evidence (when in fact they frequently went into detail about how he was trying to pass speculation and rumormongering off as evidence), and that Trump's legal team - and I quote - "had evidence that the election result was the ‘greatest crime of the century if not the life of the world'". And then of course there's the fake electors plot that was running concurrently. That is the context in which he held his "Stop the Steal" rally and told his attendants that their imminent march on the Capitol was their last chance to make Congress overturn the results, and that if they didn't succeed they wouldn't have a country anymore.

Never mind that it should be self-evident that the lyrics of a hip-hop song intended for popular release (which is to say, explicitly designed purely for entertainment) almost three decades ago is a dramatically different context than a political rally (a endorsement of and demonstration of support for a stated cause) with the explicit purpose of drumming up fervor for the storming of the Capitol that immediately followed that was done with the explicit goal of getting Congress to unilaterally overturn the election results and declare that the rally's central figure would remain in power. Never mind that the man himself would imply later that same day that the violent breach of the Capitol was both predictable and justified retribution for not overturning the results like he and the mob were demanding. To quote: "These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously and viciously stripped away". To try and draw equivalence between all of that and a Beastie Boys song is simply inane.

They are not even close to the same thing and, frankly, I'm gobsmacked that you're either not smart enough to understand that or too much of a disingenuous contrarian to care.
Trump said the following in his January 6th speech:
"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."

We'll see who's right shortly because the case will be heard in the Supreme Court. I feel the case is paper thin against Trump. I wouldn't be shocked if he is considered an insurrectionist because I don't know everything he said and did, but as far as I've seen, I've haven't seen anything that would make him an insurrectionist.

People who're open and respectful have no issue with pronouns on a daily basis.

But it's pretty easy to get them wrong, if you're just going by appearance, as a lot of people do. And that's usually fine too, if the individual just says, 'oh my mistake'. But if you attribute pronouns to someone that they don't identify with, and then refuse to change them when corrected, then yeah, you'll piss people off for no good reason.



Most people who aren't assholes do not, in fact, insist on calling someone 'he' if they identify as she.



...after appeal.

You know what appeal means-- you understand that there can't even be an appeal unless there's a prior ruling. Hell, why do you think the State courts were even allowed to pass rulings on it, if the question isn't within their jurisdiction?
It's rather hard to get pronouns wrong. Anyone that wants to be called by different pronouns isn't looking like a stereotypical guy or gal and they have obviously changed and altered their appearance. If someone is a straight up guy/girl, my force of habit will refer them as he/she respectively. Again, you can't misgender someone if you use pronouns based on sex. If someone is upset with something as minor as how someone chooses to properly use a word, that's is on them and I couldn't really give 2 shit about it. You can choose to not get upset/offended, I do that all the time.

I said it has to go through proper procedure already, that doesn't mean it's actually a decision for the state to make (just over that technicality). It's like a kid asking their older brother/sister first when the parents can obviously overrule it.
 

Silvanus

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It's rather hard to get pronouns wrong.
I'd have thought so, but you're doing your best.

Anyone that wants to be called by different pronouns isn't looking like a stereotypical guy or gal and they have obviously changed and altered their appearance.
"I can always tell". This is still unfounded arrogance.

I said it has to go through proper procedure already, that doesn't mean it's actually a decision for the state to make (just over that technicality). It's like a kid asking their older brother/sister first when the parents can obviously overrule it.
So you think States don't have the right to rule on these things, even though they factually did rule on them?
 

Ag3ma

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And the fact that someone is giving the police the middle finger in such a situation is so low on my priority list of things to care about honestly.
Sure, because you don't get Rule Of Law. That it is needs to be about processes and institutions to encourage good conduct. You and many others look at a stream of shitshow politicians gushing past, crap after crap, complaining that you can't get one with the moral and intellectual fibre to do the job properly.

Well, guess what. You're not supposed to be left praying the next guy is ethical and competent. You're supposed to take control of your own destiny, build institutions and processes that make them be ethical and competent, and which weeds them out if they are not. For instance, in a well-working system, neither Biden (for 2024) and definitely not Trump would even be candidates. But you don't have those systems and institutions - within state apparatus and parties, with relation to political funding - and the result is the quadrenniel crapshow. (Biennial, if including Congress.)

And then you moan about how rubbish everyone is. But here you are telling us you don't care about the things a country could and should do to be less rubbish. So you are part-author of your own unhappiness. I suggest you start caring, or you stop complaining.

The Durham Report specifically stated there was extreme bias in the investigation.
He reported cognitive bias - essentially, putting too much weight on supporting evidence and not enough on contradictory evidence. He did not find that the investigators had undue political bias, or that there was inappropriate external political influence. And, I repeat, his finding was that the evidence warranted a lower intensity investigation than the FBI launched: meaning, there was evidence.

A politician being held accountable for something and them giving the middle finger to some baseless claims to the police are 2 rather different things.
You don't get to choose when obstruction of justice works. If someone can give the law the finger when they didn't do it, they can give the law the finger when they did, too. What you are effectively therefore arguing here is that politicians should not be held accountable when it suits them not to be held accountable. Guess how that ends out.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I'd have thought so, but you're doing your best.



"I can always tell". This is still unfounded arrogance.



So you think States don't have the right to rule on these things, even though they factually did rule on them?
Funny how in over 40 years, no one has ever said I've gotten a pronoun wrong. I'm not going to concern myself with something that happens in such low frequency. I didn't say I can always tell, I said that it's an extremely high rate of success.

And again, because you still haven't just accepted this simple fact, you can't misgender something if you're using the sex-based definition of pronouns. It's a 2-way street, you don't have sole ownership of how people use words.

They have the right, but the feds have the final say. Hence why all but one of the states removing Trump is just for publicity sake and nothing else.


Sure, because you don't get Rule Of Law. That it is needs to be about processes and institutions to encourage good conduct. You and many others look at a stream of shitshow politicians gushing past, crap after crap, complaining that you can't get one with the moral and intellectual fibre to do the job properly.

Well, guess what. You're not supposed to be left praying the next guy is ethical and competent. You're supposed to take control of your own destiny, build institutions and processes that make them be ethical and competent, and which weeds them out if they are not. For instance, in a well-working system, neither Biden (for 2024) and definitely not Trump would even be candidates. But you don't have those systems and institutions - within state apparatus and parties, with relation to political funding - and the result is the quadrenniel crapshow. (Biennial, if including Congress.)

And then you moan about how rubbish everyone is. But here you are telling us you don't care about the things a country could and should do to be less rubbish. So you are part-author of your own unhappiness. I suggest you start caring, or you stop complaining.



He reported cognitive bias - essentially, putting too much weight on supporting evidence and not enough on contradictory evidence. He did not find that the investigators had undue political bias, or that there was inappropriate external political influence. And, I repeat, his finding was that the evidence warranted a lower intensity investigation than the FBI launched: meaning, there was evidence.



You don't get to choose when obstruction of justice works. If someone can give the law the finger when they didn't do it, they can give the law the finger when they did, too. What you are effectively therefore arguing here is that politicians should not be held accountable when it suits them not to be held accountable. Guess how that ends out.
And the more important thing is going after people with probable cause and evidence. Hence why people hate policies like stop and frisk vs someone giving the middle finger to the cops. The 1st is far more important to rule of law than the other.

I'm not voting for either Trump or Biden, there's other options. Just like I never bought from Amazon outside of very occasionally because I knew what they were doing. People have a lot more power than they realize. All I can do is my part.

Confirmation bias and the report showed that Clinton and Trump were treated differently. Also, what evidence?
But, according to Durham, the FBI rushed into the probe without having any evidence that anyone from the Trump campaign had had any contact with any Russian intelligence officers.

That wasn't the point I was making. I said holding politicians accountable is more important than obstruction of justice (hence, I care less about it than the other). I believe you don't actually have to cooperate with the police regardless (you don't have to say anything to them if you don't want to), you can't destroy incriminating evidence though. There's limited things you can do against people destroying evidence though, and it's on the investigators for being able to gather evidence before the person knows or else anyone would destroy the evidence if they knew the authorities were on to them whether it's a politician or drug dealer.
 

Silvanus

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Funny how in over 40 years, no one has ever said I've gotten a pronoun wrong. I'm not going to concern myself with something that happens in such low frequency. I didn't say I can always tell, I said that it's an extremely high rate of success.
Hmm. Remember when you told us that you actually do use the preferred gender pronoun for your friend? That you make an exception for this "pronouns are based on sex" rule for the person you know? Maybe that's why. Because despite all this obstinance about how "sex is the definition" etc etc, when it actually came to a relevant situation in real life, you gendered them correctly in order to not be an asshole.

And again, because you still haven't just accepted this simple fact, you can't misgender something if you're using the sex-based definition of pronouns. It's a 2-way street, you don't have sole ownership of how people use words.
Repetition again, coolsies.

They have the right, but the feds have the final say. Hence why all but one of the states removing Trump is just for publicity sake and nothing else.
They have the final say if there's an appeal. If there's not, their ruling stands.

Glad you've finally acknowledged that state courts can and do, in fact, have the right to rule on constitutional stuff.
 
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Ag3ma

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And the more important thing is going after people with probable cause and evidence.
That's random, but thank you for implicitly accepting my point even if you don't want to admit it explicitly.

Confirmation bias and the report showed that Clinton and Trump were treated differently.
Trump was treated differently to literally everyone the FBI got the level of investigation right. Why identify Clinton specifically? It creates an insinuation of political bias despite the conclusion that there was no political bias against Trump! (And whilst we're on "unevidenced" claims, turns out Durham made quite a few insinuations against Clinton, none of which are substantiated in the final report.)

But, according to Durham, the FBI rushed into the probe without having any evidence that anyone from the Trump campaign had had any contact with any Russian intelligence officers.


If there was literally no evidence of suspicious activity between Trump team and Russia, why was the FBI investigating at all? And why did Durham say the correct procedure was a preliminary investigation or assessment rather than full investigation - because if there was no evidence, there shouldn't even have been a preliminary. Why does Durham say that the FBI weighed too strongly evidence in support through cognitive bias if there was, as you say, no evidence? He'd be accusing them of fabrication, not cognitive bias.

I think what you are doing here is a sort of goalpost-moving: it's attempting to defend an extremely narrow point where the broader picture is more appropriate.

That wasn't the point I was making. I said holding politicians accountable is more important than obstruction of justice (hence, I care less about it than the other).
Obstruction of justice is fundamentally about someone trying to evade accountability. If holding politicians accountable is important, obstruction of justice is necessarily a big deal.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Hmm. Remember when you told us that you actually do use the preferred gender pronoun for your friend? That you make an exception for this "pronouns are based on sex" rule for the person you know? Maybe that's why. Because despite all this obstinance about how "sex is the definition" etc etc, when it actually came to a relevant situation in real life, you gendered them correctly in order to not be an asshole.



Repetition again, coolsies.



They have the final say if there's an appeal. If there's not, their ruling stands.

Glad you've finally acknowledged that state courts can and do, in fact, have the right to rule on constitutional stuff.
I use the pronoun of what sex the friend looks most like, which is what I've said many times so repetition...

Repetition because you have yet to admit that fact as being a fact.

That's what I've said the whole time...

And the rule of something in the constitution is decided by a federal court. Trump will be on the ballot in every state (or no state) because it will be decided federally.


I know about state rights and all that. It's not a state's right to take someone off the ballot because they think it's against the constitution, which needs to be figured out by a federal court. And if states had the power to do such things with their own unique interpretations, then red states would remove democrats and blue states would remove republicans from the ballots, it would be a shit show.
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That's random, but thank you for implicitly accepting my point even if you don't want to admit it explicitly.



Trump was treated differently to literally everyone the FBI got the level of investigation right. Why identify Clinton specifically? It creates an insinuation of political bias despite the conclusion that there was no political bias against Trump! (And whilst we're on "unevidenced" claims, turns out Durham made quite a few insinuations against Clinton, none of which are substantiated in the final report.)



If there was literally no evidence of suspicious activity between Trump team and Russia, why was the FBI investigating at all? And why did Durham say the correct procedure was a preliminary investigation or assessment rather than full investigation - because if there was no evidence, there shouldn't even have been a preliminary. Why does Durham say that the FBI weighed too strongly evidence in support through cognitive bias if there was, as you say, no evidence? He'd be accusing them of fabrication, not cognitive bias.

I think what you are doing here is a sort of goalpost-moving: it's attempting to defend an extremely narrow point where the broader picture is more appropriate.



Obstruction of justice is fundamentally about someone trying to evade accountability. If holding politicians accountable is important, obstruction of justice is necessarily a big deal.
I'm just saying that's more essential to the rule of law thing than the thing you're complaining about. I'm not gonna care about jaywalking to the same level I care about murder.

Yes, Durham argues. He notes that the FBI in 2016 also investigated allegations in the book “Clinton Cash,” authored by a conservative writer who alleged foreign governments were funneling money to the Clinton Foundation in exchange for access. Both Hillary Clinton, the Democratic presidential candidate, and former President Bill Clinton have long denied any wrongdoing.

The FBI labeled its reviews linked to “Clinton Cash” as “preliminary investigations,” Durham said. But the Trump Russia probe, he said, “was immediately opened as a full investigation despite the fact that it was similarly predicated on unvetted hearsay information.”


What the fuck are you talking about with goal-posting? I haven't changed anything I've said. The anonymous source about Trump colluding with Russia came from the Clinton campaign. It was a lie from the start. I haven't said anything differently. You just don't like that fact.

A guilty person's defense is inherently about evading accountability.
 

Silvanus

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I use the pronoun of what sex the friend looks most like, which is what I've said many times so repetition...
Bud, most trans people make an effort to appear as the gender they identify as. So all you're saying here is that so long as you don't notice, then you don't misgender them. That's why you haven't had people call you out: You're going around using pronouns that align with gender, and not necessarily with sex.

Repetition because you have yet to admit that fact as being a fact.
'Cos it ain't. Just repeating something isn't going to convince me, or anyone else, of anything.

That's what I've said the whole time...
Lol, no, you argued for several pages that States can't rule on federal/constitutional matters.

I love that even when you finally concede something, you just shamelessly pretend that's what you said all along. Even though your previous posts are right there for everyone to see. It's equal parts frustrating and adorable.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Bud, most trans people make an effort to appear as the gender they identify as. So all you're saying here is that so long as you don't notice, then you don't misgender them. That's why you haven't had people call you out: You're going around using pronouns that align with gender, and not necessarily with sex.



'Cos it ain't. Just repeating something isn't going to convince me, or anyone else, of anything.



Lol, no, you argued for several pages that States can't rule on federal/constitutional matters.

I love that even when you finally concede something, you just shamelessly pretend that's what you said all along. Even though your previous posts are right there for everyone to see. It's equal parts frustrating and adorable.
How many times do I have to say people use pronouns based on sex, which they use appearance to determine sex?

So how does one get someone's gender wrong when they aren't even attempting to figure out or care what someone's gender is?

A state can uphold federal law, but can't decide federal law. That's why the state courts are putting it on hold because they can't decide it and that's what I fucking said. But apparently I don't understand basic legal frameworks...
 

Silvanus

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How many times do I have to say people use pronouns based on sex, which they use appearance to determine sex?
You can say it as many times as you want. Repetition won't make the discussion disappear. The reason you're not encountering any issues is that you don't actually insist on using sex. You make exceptions. Trans people make efforts to look like the gender with which they identify, and you use pronouns in line with their gender identity.

So you can obstinately insist that bio sex is the only way to go all you want. But that's not what you yourself are doing, and that's probably why you're not encountering issues.

So how does one get someone's gender wrong when they aren't even attempting to figure out or care what someone's gender is?
Lol, the answer to your question is contained within the question there. "How can I get something wrong if I don't bother to learn it?"