Fallout show review; War... War never changes

[Dreiko]

Well, Tim Cain said in an interview (after he already left Interplay) that China started the great war. That never really made it canon. Canon explanation in-game was that nobody really knew who fired a nuke first. And at least one Interplay co-creator said that was very much by design. And that makes the new series mention, the actual first canon explanation of who started the Great War.

I agree about ghouls, although I imagine they did correctly figure they needed an explanation for why some went feral and some did not. And I'll add that the chicken-loving "doctor" having a miracle inhalant that turns someone into a ghoul instantly... that kind of bothers me too.

But yes, show's still great.

I mean it makes sense for wastelanders to not know since it's been 200 years. And at that point it doesn't really matter, they've got more pressing concerns than knowing accurate history. Hell you got people with all sorts of wacky ahistorical beliefs, like that guy who thought baseball was about beating eachother to death for example! XD


As for the doctor, I assumed the "medicine" was the same thing the ghouls drink to survive, some kinda hyper-concentrated radioactive mix that was developed to ghoullify you intentionally in some vault. By that point I was kinda in suspension of disbelief mode since it came near the end of the show so I just kinda took it in stride I guess.

 

[Gergar12]

Legion is next.

 

[BrawlMan]

​

 

[Eacaraxe]

Well, Tim Cain said in an interview (after he already left Interplay) that China started the great war. That never really made it canon. Canon explanation in-game was that nobody really knew who fired a nuke first. And at least one Interplay co-creator said that was very much by design. And that makes the new series mention, the actual first canon explanation of who started the Great War.

I agree about ghouls, although I imagine they did correctly figure they needed an explanation for why some went feral and some did not. And I'll add that the chicken-loving "doctor" having a miracle inhalant that turns someone into a ghoul instantly... that kind of bothers me too.

But yes, show's still great.

Just some counterpoints...

First, that Vault-Tec is ultimately responsible for the war -- either by false flagging or manipulation -- whether or not they detonated the first nukes, is actually one of the oldest fan theories in the entire IP. Dates back to Fallout 2's release, in fact, when the PoseidoNet terminals revealed Vault-Tec was actively part of the Enclave. It's hardly a retcon to confirm one of the oldest fan theories in the franchise, based directly on implications from information available in-game.

Second, even if anything about the "Doctor Strangelove" scene could be considered confirmation. All that was said, ultimately, is that if no governmental body launched first, Vault-Tec would. That preserves the ambiguity of who actually did it, while cementing Vault-Tec's nefariousness in the minds of viewers who may not be as familiar with Fallout lore as long-time fans.

Third, exactly what special sauce leads a human to becoming a ghoul instead of, you know, excreting their liquifying internal organs through every orifice as is wont to happen in cases of severe acute radiation sickness, has never been clearly identified in the franchise. Neither is exactly how or why ghouls go feral.

Closest in the former case is some unknown combination of genetic and pharmaceutical factors, combined with potential FEV exposure, and fatal radiation dosage catalyzing the transformation. Closest in the latter is just neurological degeneration over time, akin to Alzheimer's, Huntingon's, Parkinson's, and the like exacerbated by prolonged severe radiation exposure...as is likely to happen to ghouls who spend prolonged time, isolated, underground or indoors. What ghouls say in the games about forestalling feraldom -- staying social and mentally active, getting outdoors as much as possible -- are just common therapies today in the real world to help people with neurological degenerative disorders delay symptom progression, adapt, and preserve morale/quality of life.

The big theories I've seen since the show came out, is this "ghoul drug" is a combination of RadAway, powderized Rad-X, and/or some hormone or neurotransmitter still produced by non-feral ghouls. The drug matches the appearance of RadAway even if the intake mechanism is inhaled rather than intravenous, and its effects seem similar to Rad-X. Cooper resorts to cannibalism when his supply is destroyed -- and the dealers at Super-Duper Mart have to be keeping a captive population of non-feral ghouls for some reason. Two plus two equals this might be some chem ghouls produce naturally until a certain point in their lifespan, tapering off naturally until they go feral, which can be supplemented by (inhaled) "hormone" therapy.

Sure, it's fanwank for now, but at least it's sensible fanwank. Cooper not actually presenting any symptoms of going feral is another story entirely, but we'll see what happens in season 2.

 

[Kyrian007]

Just some counterpoints...

First, that Vault-Tec is ultimately responsible for the war -- either by false flagging or manipulation -- whether or not they detonated the first nukes, is actually one of the oldest fan theories in the entire IP. Dates back to Fallout 2's release, in fact, when the PoseidoNet terminals revealed Vault-Tec was actively part of the Enclave. It's hardly a retcon to confirm one of the oldest fan theories in the franchise, based directly on implications from information available in-game.

Second, even if anything about the "Doctor Strangelove" scene could be considered confirmation. All that was said, ultimately, is that if no governmental body launched first, Vault-Tec would. That preserves the ambiguity of who actually did it, while cementing Vault-Tec's nefariousness in the minds of viewers who may not be as familiar with Fallout lore as long-time fans.

Third, exactly what special sauce leads a human to becoming a ghoul instead of, you know, excreting their liquifying internal organs through every orifice as is wont to happen in cases of severe acute radiation sickness, has never been clearly identified in the franchise. Neither is exactly how or why ghouls go feral.

Closest in the former case is some unknown combination of genetic and pharmaceutical factors, combined with potential FEV exposure, and fatal radiation dosage catalyzing the transformation. Closest in the latter is just neurological degeneration over time, akin to Alzheimer's, Huntingon's, Parkinson's, and the like exacerbated by prolonged severe radiation exposure...as is likely to happen to ghouls who spend prolonged time, isolated, underground or indoors. What ghouls say in the games about forestalling feraldom -- staying social and mentally active, getting outdoors as much as possible -- are just common therapies today in the real world to help people with neurological degenerative disorders delay symptom progression, adapt, and preserve morale/quality of life.

The big theories I've seen since the show came out, is this "ghoul drug" is a combination of RadAway, powderized Rad-X, and/or some hormone or neurotransmitter still produced by non-feral ghouls. The drug matches the appearance of RadAway even if the intake mechanism is inhaled rather than intravenous, and its effects seem similar to Rad-X. Cooper resorts to cannibalism when his supply is destroyed -- and the dealers at Super-Duper Mart have to be keeping a captive population of non-feral ghouls for some reason. Two plus two equals this might be some chem ghouls produce naturally until a certain point in their lifespan, tapering off naturally until they go feral, which can be supplemented by (inhaled) "hormone" therapy.

Sure, it's fanwank for now, but at least it's sensible fanwank. Cooper not actually presenting any symptoms of going feral is another story entirely, but we'll see what happens in season 2.

Well, that doesn't counterpoint anything I said. I wasn't trying to claim there was a retcon, or explain it, or condone it. I said there wasn't a definitive canon explanation before the series. That means there was no retcon when the series put the blame on Vault-Tec (be it through political manipulation or direct bomb detonation.) I was well aware that was a popular fan theory. And Ghouls, I also never claimed there was any kind of "retcon" involved there either. Again, in my post I said," I imagine they did correctly figure they needed an explanation for why some went feral and some did not." And that implies, that up until that point there HADN'T been such an explanation. Which there wasn't. What I was agreeing with, was the show writers' idea that an explanation should be added to the mix and could be made into a "ticking clock" sort of motivating plot thread.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Might check this out as while I was always mildly interested in the games and started playing the original I ultimately didn’t have enough patience/time for its slow pace and turn based gameplay. So a show format of the series that plays well with source material sounds nice.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Well, that doesn't counterpoint anything I said. I wasn't trying to claim there was a retcon, or explain it, or condone it. I said there wasn't a definitive canon explanation before the series.

There isn't one after the series either, which is what you implied. Again, all that was stated was Vault-Tec was willing to do it themselves if no one else did first. All the scene did was establish for viewers who might not have played the games, or been able to read between the lines thus far, Vault-Tec's profit motive lied with the Great War occurring, and was willing to do what was necessary to see return on investment.

It's not "the first canon explanation of who started the Great War". In fact, the dialogue was clearly carefully written so as to make it that way.

What I was agreeing with, was the show writers' idea that an explanation should be added to the mix and could be made into a "ticking clock" sort of motivating plot thread.

The issue is Cooper shows zero signs of even starting to go feral through the show. He's one of the most stable, consistent, and mentally sharp ghouls we've seen of any Fallout work that takes place in its 23rd Century. His problems seem to be exclusively cardiopulmonary.

That indicates to me there's more to the story than his chems just being some form of anti-feral agent, which hopefully will be expounded upon in later seasons. I suspect it's not an anti-feral drug, but rather some general-purpose chem that counteracts or slows ghoul decomposition...that just happens to target feral-dom when and where ghouls' nervous systems are finally decomposing.

 

[Kyrian007]

There isn't one after the series either, which is what you implied. Again, all that was stated was Vault-Tec was willing to do it themselves if no one else did first. All the scene did was establish for viewers who might not have played the games, or been able to read between the lines thus far, Vault-Tec's profit motive lied with the Great War occurring, and was willing to do what was necessary to see return on investment.

It's not "the first canon explanation of who started the Great War". In fact, the dialogue was clearly carefully written so as to make it that way.

Which is why I included " (be it through political manipulation or direct bomb detonation.)" Specifically to account for how the series worded their explanation. It wouldn't be entirely inconceivable that China or the U.S. just launched independently. But given their stance, it is likely that even if it was either country rather than Vault-Tech itself, Vault-Tech would be using resources to convince one or both to do so. Making it canon that they were at least trying to be responsible for the war. And if that's what they wanted, I'm inclined to let them take that credit. May be a fine distinction (and it also leaves the possibility that Vault-Tech isn't the only party responsible,) but it is enough to convince me that the show (or games going forward) isn't going to go back and exonerate Vault-Tec sometime down the line. It's as much an explanation as we are ever likely to have, good enough for me.

The issue is Cooper shows zero signs of even starting to go feral through the show. He's one of the most stable, consistent, and mentally sharp ghouls we've seen of any Fallout work that takes place in its 23rd Century. His problems seem to be exclusively cardiopulmonary.

That indicates to me there's more to the story than his chems just being some form of anti-feral agent, which hopefully will be expounded upon in later seasons. I suspect it's not an anti-feral drug, but rather some general-purpose chem that counteracts or slows ghoul decomposition...that just happens to target feral-dom when and where ghouls' nervous systems are finally decomposing.

That'd be great. I'd be all for that. But it is too complex. I'm more of the opinion that the chems are an attempt to simplify and define, not that they are an elaborate cover over a rug pull for some kind of later reveal. The underlying question for newcomer fans is "why do some ghouls go bad and turn into zombies?" And rather than not define anything, or make up something super complex, the chem is just a simple explanation. "Eventually they go bad, unless they get this stuff."

I don't see them going super deep into ghoul biology for plot points. And even though it would be interesting, I'm doubting there's going to be some kind of revelation about Cooper being somehow "different" than other ghouls. Some kind of "super" ghoul that won't ever go feral. Although with that one, I could be wrong. But in an earlier post, you hit directly on one thing about ghouls that would make for a much simpler and interesting rug pull plot point going forward. And that is a revelation about how the chem is made. And could even explain chicken doctor's magic "make me a ghoul" medicine at the same time. What if it does take harvesting something from ghouls to make the chem... but the extraction rate is extremely low. To the point where to make enough of the serum one has to capture a human, ghoulify them, and imprison them to extract whatever it is you need. And then say that to make enough to keep a single ghoul going for say... a year, you had to do that to 50 humans. That kind of conundrum is awful enough to even make Coop think twice, driven as he is. It either strengthens his resolve and reinforces his ruthless drive, or it starts a change for some character growth. And all without going into the weeds on ghoul biology.