Trump ordered to pay $350 million for fraudulent business practices in New York

Dalisclock

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I think when trump is gone it will certainly slow things down and maybe even kill them outright since so far no one has that weird charisma he does.
Even after he's dead I'm sure there's a substational portion of his idiot fanbase/cult that will insist he's "not really dead" and he's just pulling strings from the shadows. If you reject reality to substitute your own, death isn't much of an obstacle.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Even after he's dead I'm sure there's a substational portion of his idiot fanbase/cult that will insist he's "not really dead" and he's just pulling strings from the shadows. If you reject reality to substitute your own, death isn't much of an obstacle.
There will always be those, but its been a long time since I heard someone legit say that Elvis is still alive. I would give it like 3 years and then most of them will move on, 7 years and all but the most hardcore will be gone. Really it only depends on if someone as charismatic and morally bankrupt shows up again.
 
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Agema

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Why should I offer an argument for something you already know and believe?
That's just evasion.

What convincing evidence is there that Trump cannot get a fair trial in NYC? You have offered nothing so far but prejudice and speculation.
 
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tstorm823

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That's just evasion.

What convincing evidence is there that Trump cannot get a fair trial in NYC? You have offered nothing so far but prejudice and speculation.
Have you ever been to New York City?
 

Agema

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Well, the "Law and order" part applies to OTHER PEOPLE. Republicans get special pleading to lower the bar for them(In particular Trump, who apparently should be held to the lowest possible standard if any standard at all). It's pretty pathetic but that's what it is.
Trump's main supporter base are right-wing authoritarians.

Right-wing authoritarians are strong believers in law, order, and submission to authority. However, there's a big kicker in there: that's the law, order and authority that they perceive as morally legitimate. To any other law, order and authority they may be outright rebellious. The aim therefore is to establish the legitimacy of The Leader, at which point all other law, order and authority can be dismissed as illegitimate.

Hence a lot of the rhetoric coming out of the US right wing, which is specifically targetted at attacking the legitimacy of the state and various actors associated with the legal cases, because that's what resonates with their voters. The laws of the land pose a potent alternative source of authority and so challenge to the authority of Trump, therefore they must be assaulted and degraded to establish the authority of Trump. As a measure of how far this goes, bear in mind that was the message even when Trump was president, in the form of all that 'deep state' baloney.
 
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Agema

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Have you ever been to New York City?
This is just more evasion. Properly reasoned arguments, please.

There's an appropriate process to agree to move location of trials, which Trump applied for. It was reviewed and rejected.
 
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tstorm823

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This is just more evasion. Properly reasoned arguments, please.

There's an appropriate process to agree to move location of trials, which Trump applied for. It was reviewed and rejected.
85% of the voters in Manhattan voted against him. Manhattan paints the street in front of Trump Tower to antagonize him. My sister lived in NYC for 1 year, and it took a while after before she regained a sense of humor beyond "make fun of Donald Trump". I don't think you could find a stronger record of collective contempt from any other metro directed towards an individual within its jurisdiction in history.
 

meiam

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There will always be those, but its been a long time since I heard someone legit say that Elvis is still alive. I would give it like 3 years and then most of them will move on, 7 years and all but the most hardcore will be gone. Really it only depends on if someone as charismatic and morally bankrupt shows up again.
Didn't a bunch of them hold a prayer circle or something for months in Texas because they tough that Kennedy was still alive and would show up to declare Trump the legitimate president or something like that?
 

tstorm823

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This is how we know you realize you've lost an argument: You just pretend that the person who won actually agrees with you and just won't admit it.
You all have tells, including Agema. The style of arguments are very different when Agema believes something strongly vs when he's defending something from a place of uncertainty at best. As they should be, I appreciate the implicit honesty, and respect that he doesn't play devil's advocate in the same terms as his real beliefs.

If I were to guess Agema's position, he (like me) would have preferred a conviction both on more solid charges and in a courtroom less easily accused of bias, if only for the optics of both, but is willing to defend what was charged and where if only because it's silly to call any of it unfair when Trump deserves everything coming to him and then some. Had a democrat said their arguments were pretty contrived and the jury is likely to be biased, I'm confident Agema would agree to all of it without hesitation, but the agreement to those terms can't come at the expense of not opposing Trump.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Didn't a bunch of them hold a prayer circle or something for months in Texas because they tough that Kennedy was still alive and would show up to declare Trump the legitimate president or something like that?
I wonder if that was about RFK jr or something. Cause I do remember seeing those articles but not caring enough to read them.
 

Thaluikhain

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A prayer circle sounds like something you'd hold for someone who was dead, TBH.
 

meiam

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Agema

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85% of the voters in Manhattan voted against him. Manhattan paints the street in front of Trump Tower to antagonize him. My sister lived in NYC for 1 year, and it took a while after before she regained a sense of humor beyond "make fun of Donald Trump".
You surely understand the difference between voting against or mocking someone, and causing them severe harm through an action as severe as felony conviction.

Most people have qualities like maturity, good citizenship, fairness, responsibility, duty and proportionality. Given that US courts require unanimity, you are proposing that every single one of those jurors did not have those qualities. And that's even despite Trump's own lawyers being able to question and discard them for risk of bias.

I don't think you could find a stronger record of collective contempt from any other metro directed towards an individual within its jurisdiction in history.
That's exactly the sort of hyperbole Trump would employ.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
You surely understand the difference between voting against or mocking someone, and causing them severe harm through an action as severe as felony conviction.

Most people have qualities like maturity, good citizenship, fairness, responsibility, duty and proportionality. Given that US courts require unanimity, you are proposing that every single one of those jurors did not have those qualities. And that's even despite Trump's own lawyers being able to question and discard them for risk of bias.
What you don't understand is that he just really wants trump to get a fail trial, and you can tell a trial is fair because he would be found innocent.
 

Trunkage

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No you can't...

What Rittenhouse did I would say is morally self-defense regardless of what the actual law says. The threat against him was high enough to merit using a gun.

Not really true...
Reddit Europe self-defense thread

Funny how when I say like every country did such and such with covid it's not a valid defense, but you can use it?
Did you read this thread?

Do you at all think this helps your case here?

Anyway, I can understand that YOU think it's self-defence. I think it's an overreaction to a small-sized incident. It's like Israel wanting to defend itself against Hamas. Great, go ahead Israel. What has that got to do with the current War in Gaza? Because what's happening is a massively outsized overreaction to a few thousand people and is just hurting innocent people

I would absolutely say that Rittenhouse could defend himself. With a gun? Not from the footage I've seen. But then, as I said, my opinion doesn't matter. The US law states that you can shoot anybody as long as they seem mildly threatening. And, due to the laws mismatch with societal expectations in the US, the citizenry generally agrees with me. But then the laws weren't created by the citizenry, they were created by the NRA for specific gun owners
 
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Dalisclock

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Looked it up, yeah it was Jr.

Gurentee they'll do this shit for trump when he finally gets lowered into the ground in a rowboat. Or they'll just claim he rose after 3 days and ascended to heaven and he'll return to create a right wing utopia any day now(The deep state and MSM will deny this because they hate him so much /s ).
 
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tstorm823

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You surely understand the difference between voting against or mocking someone, and causing them severe harm through an action as severe as felony conviction.
You surely understand the difficulty in taking an action publicly disapproved of by 85% of your community, especially when the judge is effectively telling you to do it.
 

Agema

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You surely understand the difficulty in taking an action publicly disapproved of by 85% of your community, especially when the judge is effectively telling you to do it.
This isn't what occurs in court rulings in practice. Again, because most people are reasonable citizens, they accept the right of their fellows to rule as their conscience and the evidence dictates when sitting on juries. The USA has seen a vast welter of cases on deeply divisive issues (e.g. think things like fatal use of force) over the years and there has not been any wave of major juror harassment after any of them.

I will accept that the sympathies of the jury matter in a close call. Trump surely started with more entries in the negatives column on this, and his conduct throughout the case would only have been likely to alienate the jury even more. But nevertheless, a simpler likelihood is just that the defence ran a poor case: indeed, there is a huge amount of comment that the defence was incoherent and ineffectual. Perhaps the perils of the defence team serving a man more interested in settling personal scores and playing to a wider audience for his election campaign than he is fighting the prosecution in front of him.
 
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