US 2024 Presidential Election

[Agema]

Lina Khan was made head of FTC with Bernie and Warren advocatijg for her, and since then she's made a lot of billionaires angry by just doing the actual job all those before her were supposed to be doing.

In some ways, this is one of the most frustrating things about politics.

Lina Khan seems to me to be exactly the sort of person doing the sort of thing that the left should be celebrating more openly. "Hey voters, you know how you're so mad that megacorps keep screwing everyone over - well, we decided we'd do something about it, and here's the woman striving on your behalf."

 

[Gergar12]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/economy/us-jobs-report-october-final/index.html

It would be pretty funny if Trump wins only for the Democrats to hand him a recession and blame him for it as Republicans did to Obama and Biden.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Really ?

After Obama in the 2016 election, when the Dems felt powerful, you had an actual competition between Sanders and Clinton and actual internal policy discussion. Sure, Sanders lost in the end, but that was as close as you ever got to having some left shift in the democratic party. But Trump won. 2020 Sanders he dropped out in April and the Democrats rallied early around Biden, who was particularly chosen to court undecided centrists. This time they unfortunately didn't have a proper pre-election because they had an incumbant.

Dems shouldn't have felt powerful in 2016. In the 2006 midterms is when dem fortunes started to turn for them, they remembered they were an anti-war party during 2 illegal wars. In 2008 (you might note at the end of 8 years of republican rule), Obama ran a decidedly left wing campaign to take office and won a huge smashing success, taking the house and senate. For a few months it even had a senate supermajority and dems could do literally anything they wanted.

Obama ran right so hard and so fast it cost the dems their power in 2010, which they never recovered from. After courting left wing voters to massive success, they dropped them like a rock, noted by Obama losing 5 million votes in 2012.

Then we get to 2016, saying "Bernie ran proving they were left wing" comes across quite silly, Bernie isn't even a democrat, he can run whatever the party says. He ran because the dems had created a ton of discontent among the left wing by being a bunch of right wing corpos, and Hillary was the party avatar of this. They then went on to outright cheat their primary to keep Bernie off the ballot (and argued in court that they're allowed to cheat in their own primaries). Success had bred a hard right wing streak in the dem party.

Hillary would go on to use her media connections to elevate Trump within the republican primary to make an "easy" opponent to beat, so she made it her mission to spite the left wing base while courting conservatives. She lost horribly on this strategy because it literally does not work. The dem party once again pretended to be left wing for the Trump years and in 2020 after ratfucking Bernie again, Biden made concessions during his campaign to the left and actually courted their vote. It might have been bullshit in the end, but he did win the election with more votes than even Obama got in 2008. He then made some half-hearted attempts at some of the left wing things, gave up on most of them, and his reelection chances looked grim.

Dropping out for Harris bumped the polls up, picking Walz over Shapiro (definitely seen as playing to the left over the right) kept her numbers up and she was looking great. Then she started campaigning with Cheney and we're watching her polls crash because dems are, once again, courting the right when they've been in power. The lesson from all this is that the party moves to the right when they're in power and makes overtures from the left when they're in opposition. And that electing them with overwhelming votes ensures that they blow up all their left wing promises. Exactly the opposite of what you tell us.

When the Dems feel week, they move right. When they feel strong, they allow their wings to fight.

They literally didn't allow their wings to fight, they sabotaged the primary against Bernie.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

As I said, I'm done wasting my time on your pretensions, so I'm just going to leave you with this: That line right there perfectly encapsulates the issue. You not only don't know what I'm talking about, but you generally don't know anyone is talking about, including - as you're repeatedly shown over this and many other topics - the very sources you cite, which you consistently show that you never bothered to fully read, even as you claim otherwise. You clearly presume that everyone else must be as lazy as you and therefore that saying "uh yeah, I totally read them!" is enough to convince them that you must know what you're talking about, even as the people you're talking to are liberally quoting the same and additional sources - and often at length and explaining the surrounding context in detail - to show that both those sources and the broader data don't actually say what you claim.

You don't listen. You don't read. And you don't know what anyone is talking about. But you still deign to pretend that you know more about the subject than even people in the fields that you're condescending about when they tell you that you are speaking bonafide nonsense and that your preconceptions don't match reality. You are not an expert with any authority on these subjects, nor are you even well-read on them. You're a layman with a below-average understanding of them. So nobody gives a damn whether you think it makes sense because it's very obvious how little you know about the topic, and consequentially your uneducated guesses hold no weight.

You didn't listen to what I said because I never said that.

This has already been addressed. Perception (as in, the perception of impartiality) is one of numerous factors. The constitution is one small facet of what influences that perception of the SCOTUS.

When the constitution literally says "NO XYZ" and the Supreme Court says XYZ is allowed, that's a massive blow to their perception of impartiality.

 

[Seanchaidh]

When was the last time the bolded part was true?

some time before 1992; which is why it seems like they must be defeated so soundly that they cannot recover and the electorate realizes they must be replaced. maybe there is some kind of entryism that works, but it's clear that 'the squad' wasn't it.

The apparent contradiction is one you brought up, not me: the idea that these voters going third party is advantageous to the Dems, because they're not voting Trump.

Except it relies on a strange assumption that the primary motivating factor for these voters is to simply see the Dems lose rather than any actual policy preference. An assumption i never made: I see their choice to vote third party as a principled one, and any impact on the Dem-Republican binary contest as a side-effect.

For voters who feel betrayed by the Democratic Party's embrace of mass slaughter, your way of reasoning about the benefits of third party votes is that it is advantageous to the Democrats that they have an option to register their discontent that is not Trump. It is not a 'strange assumption' that people who object to the Kamalacaust want to see her lose and that isn't any less 'principled' than merely voting for a third party because one likes them best. Nor is wanting to see the Democrats lose not a matter of policy preference: the Democrats are guilty of a genocide! To reelect them is to make it clear that they can do that and be reelected! That has a heaping ton of policy preference implications!

"Relevant others", being the Stein and Trump campaigns, do believe that third party votes cost the Democrats. It's not flimsy when Stein directly said so (no matter how many times you dismiss her own perspective as propaganda or familiarity bias). It's not flimsy when Republicans are pumping money into Stein's campaign.

It's pretty flimsy when you consider the full context of her quote which I posted some pages back with an edit that you proceeded to ignore.

 

[Seanchaidh]

within an hour, I find this while not even looking for it:

https://www.gp.org/gpus_responds_to_european_greens

They seem to have swallowed the myth that Stein voters would have voted for the Democrat if Jill Stein had never entered the presidential race, and that Dr. Stein's withdrawal would release her supporters to vote for Harris.

The feedback we are receiving from voters is that Dr. Stein's supporters had no intention of voting for either of the major-party candidates in the first place. Dr. Stein and the Green Party are drawing support from Americans who are appalled by US military aid for Israel's ethnic cleansing and extermination of civilians in Gaza. Large numbers of voters refuse to vote for any candidate who favors more aid for genocide or hesitates to call for an immediate ceasefire, which describes both Harris and Donald Trump.

edit: seriously just coming across this shit randomly

But others are supporting Trump. They say they fear Harris more bc of what she’s supported and will continue to support and feel they need to vote Trump to make sure Harris loses. It’s not even about Trump being better or worse, it’s to make sure Harris loses bc, as the argument goes, Harris will continue the genocide while Trump might not.

 

[tippy2k2]

within an hour, I find this while not even looking for it:

https://www.gp.org/gpus_responds_to_european_greens

I said this waaaaaaaaay earlier in the thread and have always been pretty confident in it

Anyone who has hit the point where they are actively going to the voters booth to vote for a third party candidate would likely never vote D or R, even if they were the only two options left. There's bound to be some outliers who would but the vast majority who have hit a point where they are flipping off The Duopoly won't suddenly become Pro-Duopoly if they weren't "allowed" to vote for whatever third party choice they want to vote for.

 

[Trunkage]

Unfortunately I am only one man. It requires the not-VBNMW people being willing to take a stand against Democrats for actual change to happen but too many of them have decided that they're willing to let little things like genocide slide in order to make sure the """lesser evil""" doesn't win.

I'd vote for Democrats if they actually represented me but they don't so I won't. If Democrats lose in a few days, they've only got themselves to blame.

I haven't felt like anyone I've ever voted for represented me. I've learnt that A) each MP represent 160k people (maybe more in America). They can't represent you personally but the plurality of that constituency. B) I don't know where we got this idea that a representative would do it personally. It's like the concept of Free Speech being 'sunlight that disinfects'. It's a complete lie
C) I can vote for someone for particular reasons but that doesn't mean I voted for all of their ideas
D) If you aren't voting for them, they will never listen. If you do vote for them, they are unlikely to listen.

I don't think you can change the Dems. They are proud of what they did and will probably never seen anything they do as damaging

Yes, I understand your point of view on genocide. I dont know if I've ever been called an antisemite before this last year. I didnt know that protect your country means that you get to do a genocide. Hitler would have loved that talking point.....All women, trans, gay, African Americans, Latinos, immigrants, Asian etc will have to pay in blood if Trump gets in. The genocide is not the only thing in the world. So I understand why people feel like they are morally obligated to protect those people. Yes, I understand you think they are pieces that can be sacrificed to stop a genocide. I understand that other's think those pieces can be protected and are willing to sacrifice Palestinians to get it. It's a literal trolley problem. People WILL die and they only thing you can do is choose is who

 

[Trunkage]

It is a natural if ugly response to go after someone in kind. That's why I'm on the "no voteshaming" wagon, but it's easier to excuse the reaction than the cause. And it's very easy to see Tippy stopping if people stop coming at him with voteshaming.

It would be very easy to see people stop voteshaming them if Tippy stopped it.

It has been frustrating talking to Tippy about politics for almost decade and everything I say get taken as an attack.

I don't get worried about it because a lot of interactions with many members here are like that. And they are stuck in a terrible place. The GOP and Dems are terrible and there isn't a viable option yet

 

[Trunkage]

I live in Sydney, I meant that since it says that you are in Brisbane, tippy2k2 is probably incorrect in you voting for anyone in US elections.

But yeah, christ, effing right wingers getting in everywhere, and might take away abortion rights.

Oh shit, we were both wrong. They did identity politics first by protecting the fragile white ego from learning about the crimes of the government and institutions decades ago. Watch this space as a preview of what Dutton will do

 

[tippy2k2]

I haven't felt like anyone I've ever voted for represented me. I've learnt that A) each MP represent 160k people (maybe more in America). They can't represent you personally but the plurality of that constituency. B) I don't know where we got this idea that a representative would do it personally. It's like the concept of Free Speech being 'sunlight that disinfects'. It's a complete lie
C) I can vote for someone for particular reasons but that doesn't mean I voted for all of their ideas
D) If you aren't voting for them, they will never listen. If you do vote for them, they are unlikely to listen.

I don't think you can change the Dems. They are proud of what they did and will probably never seen anything they do as damaging

Yes, I understand your point of view on genocide. I dont know if I've ever been called an antisemite before this last year. I didnt know that protect your country means that you get to do a genocide. Hitler would have loved that talking point.....All women, trans, gay, African Americans, Latinos, immigrants, Asian etc will have to pay in blood if Trump gets in. The genocide is not the only thing in the world. So I understand why people feel like they are morally obligated to protect those people. Yes, I understand you think they are pieces that can be sacrificed to stop a genocide. I understand that other's think those pieces can be protected and are willing to sacrifice Palestinians to get it. It's a literal trolley problem. People WILL die and they only thing you can do is choose is who

But again and something that you guys either can't or won't understand

This isn't a natural disaster. Democrats are not powerless in this situation. They could end this tonight if they wanted to. They are CHOOSING not to. You are all calling this a Trolley Problem like we can't see the person tying everyone to the tracks.

I will not and I will NEVER vote for a party that makes this kind of choice. This fucking country can burn to the ground for all I care if we can't make a Genocide a Red Line to say "You cannot cross this line and keep our support". Voting for Democrats is letting them know there is no Red Line that they can cross that will make you not support them.

You're all also making a HUGE assumption that Democrats won't tie anyone to those trolley tracks down the line. Curiously, no one in this thread said a single thing when I posted that clip of Harris saying "We should follow the law on Trans Rights" (never mind many states where you can't even use the bathroom legally if you have gone through all of the steps to transition because you have to use the bathroom of your birth certificate gender). State Rights for Abortion is evil and wrong but somehow State Rights for Transgender Care is A-Okay!

This go around they're throwing Muslim, Arab, and Anti-Genocide People out the bus. I'm sure you guys will be shocked somehow but you really shouldn't be shocked later down the line when they decide the Ts (a much smaller population) is the next one to go under the bus as she's already hinting at. Hey, it sucks that they're losing their rights but LESSER EVIL, am I right?!?! Something something and then there was no one left to speak for me...

 

[crimson5pheonix]

It would be very easy to see people stop voteshaming them if Tippy stopped it.

It has been frustrating talking to Tippy about politics for almost decade and everything I say get taken as an attack.

I don't get worried about it because a lot of interactions with many members here are like that. And they are stuck in a terrible place. The GOP and Dems are terrible and there isn't a viable option yet

I'm looking at your response to Tippy where he says nothing about you, but you say he views others as pieces to sacrifice. Nah fam, stop your voteshaming bro. Stein is pro LGBT. With the signals coming from the dem party, greens might end up being the only pro T party here coming up soon.

 

[tippy2k2]

I'm looking at your response to Tippy where he says nothing about you, but you say he views others as pieces to sacrifice. Nah fam, stop your voteshaming bro. Stein is pro LGBT. With the signals coming from the dem party, greens might end up being the only pro T party here coming up soon.

Although shit, even they're starting to get a little questionable unfortunately

Part of this I'm going off of a trans friend who pays a lot more attention to Trans Rights (for obvious reasons) and they have told me that The Green Party is unfortunately very much filled with TERFs. Then Butch Ware had those comments earlier with the bit of a Trans Dog Whistle where he says that "Biological Men shouldn't play womens sports". That could be an innocent answer I suppose but based on people who usually say that kind of thing, it's usually a "Trans People shouldn't exist" kind of comment rather than anything about sports considering how stupid-rare trans in sports actually happen in real life...

Ultimately we all do know that Green isn't going to win since The Lesser Evil schtick has somehow still worked when GENOCIDE is on the table so maybe I shouldn't overthink this too much but it's something I do think I want to look more into before I go vote on Tuesday.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Although shit, even they're starting to get a little questionable unfortunately

Part of this I'm going off of a trans friend who pays a lot more attention to Trans Rights (for obvious reasons) and they have told me that The Green Party is unfortunately very much filled with TERFs. Then Butch Ware had those comments earlier with the bit of a Trans Dog Whistle where he says that "Biological Men shouldn't play womens sports". That could be an innocent answer I suppose but based on people who usually say that kind of thing, it's usually a "Trans People shouldn't exist" kind of comment rather than anything about sports considering how stupid-rare trans in sports actually happen in real life...

Ultimately we all do know that Green isn't going to win since The Lesser Evil schtick has somehow still worked when GENOCIDE is on the table so maybe I shouldn't overthink this too much but it's something I do think I want to look more into before I go vote on Tuesday.

Oof, fair enough. Things might just be going downhill all around. I'd be wary of that too.

 

[tippy2k2]

Oof, fair enough. Things might just be going downhill all around. I'd be wary of that too.

Google must have heard me cause this just popped into my timeline


So I feel a little bit better about it now

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Oh boy, de-escalation through sending B-52s. Cops wish they had that kind of "deterrence".

 

[Gergar12]

European Greens ask Jill Stein to stand down and endorse Kamala Harris

US Green party leader urged to withdraw from presidential race to prevent Donald Trump victory

www.theguardian.com

 

[Thaluikhain]

But again and something that you guys either can't or won't understand

This isn't a natural disaster. Democrats are not powerless in this situation. They could end this tonight if they wanted to. They are CHOOSING not to. You are all calling this a Trolley Problem like we can't see the person tying everyone to the tracks.

Sure, it's not a Trolley Problem for the Democrat leadership. But it is for the voters who don't have any real control over the leadership. Win or lose, the Democrat party will still be like that after this election, and the one after that, and the one after that. Voters don't get to influence that.

You're all also making a HUGE assumption that Democrats won't tie anyone to those trolley tracks down the line.

I don't think anyone is making that assumption (on this forum, at least), I think they are assuming that the Democrats would do marginally less than the Republicans.

This fucking country can burn to the ground for all I care if

Ah.

 

[tippy2k2]

Sure, it's not a Trolley Problem for the Democrat leadership. But it is for the voters who don't have any real control over the leadership. Win or lose, the Democrat party will still be like that after this election, and the one after that, and the one after that. Voters don't get to influence that.



I don't think anyone is making that assumption (on this forum, at least), I think they are assuming that the Democrats would do marginally less than the Republicans.



Ah.

Then that is a party that is not worth voting for and if we can't stand up and say "Hey, GENOCIDE is a bad thing for us to do", then yeah, I'm not sure we as a country deserve to survive anymore.

It's already falling apart at the seams anyway so no matter what happens on November 6th, this place might burn anyway. Democrats are getting the greenlight to keep doing what they're doing so once they decide to get a little bit more ambitious (like, say, sending a bunch of B-52s to the Middle East and preparing to go to war with anyone they can get away with going to war with), they'll go for it. They've let the Warhawks into the party and Warhawks love nothing more than more war.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Democrats are the ones actively choosing to sacrifice an entire countries worth of people. This isn't some malevolent force or natural disaster that we can't do anything about. Democrats are tying people to the track to run them down when they can choose to just...not do that.

Once The Democrats know you'll let them get away with fucking Genocide and still vote for them, they'll know you'll let them get away with anything as long as they are 99% Hitler going up against 100% Hitler. Just don't be shocked next go around when they decide a cause dear to you is a worthy sacrifice for the trolly...

Democrats aren't tying anyone to the tracks.

Hamas is tying the Palestinian population to the tracks, Israel is controlling the trolley running them over, and Democrats are the ones building the trolleys.

If the Democrats stopped building trolleys today the Israelis would still have plenty of trolleys to keep their rail system running for months (though at a slower rate), right up until some other Muslim country decides to attack Israel while their supply of trolleys is low.

Then the US steps in and starts building more trolleys again while the Dems get scolded by Republicans and the country gets told "we told you so, this wouldn't have happened under Trump."