Funny events in anti-woke world

Silvanus

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I mean, personally I do think that's the more important consideration.
It can be a more important consideration societally while also not being the primary purpose of this mechanism.

Sure, the primary goal of taxation is to fund the government, but understanding that is easy and simple. More intricate and thus deserving vastly more care and planning is how to extract those funds in a way that incentivizes good behavior and mitigates market failures. People are going to try to minimize their tax burden in any system, so the systems are put together with the intention that good practices lead to lower tax burden, because otherwise the rich will lean more heavily into bad practices to avoid taxes. So what is the effect of taxing people on unrealized capital gains on stocks, how does one avoid that tax? The government is going to come after the ultra-rich for their stock holdings, they'll certainly have to sell off assets for cash in order to pay the tax bill, so they're going to avoid that as best they can. How does one avoid that? They could avoid ownership entirely, find a way to entrench their power and revenue streams without actually having their name down on paper as owners, which is bad as now we've distanced the people in charge from legal culpability for their actions. Or they could avoid unrealized gains by making their stocks not worth owning, by siphoning the value out of companies in an indirect way that would not benefit other stockholders. That's not great, that just prevents anyone new from gaining wealth. The potential consequences aren't great here.
This boils down to, "it will encourage people to abuse the system to avoid it". An argument that is levied against any tax on the ultra wealthy: capital gains, wealth, property, etc. The solution is not to shy away from making the ultra-wealthy pay their fair share. The solution is to close loopholes and exploitable mechanisms.
 
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tstorm823

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This boils down to, "it will encourage people to abuse the system to avoid it". An argument that is levied against any tax on the ultra wealthy: capital gains, wealth, property, etc. The solution is not to shy away from making the ultra-wealthy pay their fair share. The solution is to close loopholes and exploitable mechanisms.
You can only close every legal loophole, you can only eliminate legal exploits. If you end up in a system where wealth is de facto outlawed, you encourage outlaws, and now the economy is run by the mafia instead. Good job. Every argument you would likely make about the inefficacy of prohibition for things like drugs and alcohol applies doubly to money. The wiser play is to make the system disproportionately benefit those who play by the rules, but then those benefits are most of what people characterize as loopholes and exploits, so here we are.
 

Silvanus

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You can only close every legal loophole, you can only eliminate legal exploits. If you end up in a system where wealth is de facto outlawed, you encourage outlaws, and now the economy is run by the mafia instead. Good job.
"A system where wealth is de facto outlawed"? Get a hold of yourself. We're talking about a relatively modest tax on people whose wealth is over $100 million.

Don't worry, the obscenely wealthy will still be able to make obscene amounts of money.

Every argument you would likely make about the inefficacy of prohibition for things like drugs and alcohol applies doubly to money. The wiser play is to make the system disproportionately benefit those who play by the rules, but then those benefits are most of what people characterize as loopholes and exploits, so here we are.
And how has this system served us, eh? Public services crumble with underinvestment, while we experience more wealth inequality than under the Bourbons.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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Probably more related to capitalism, but noone reads the relevant thread for it


The Untold Story of Trump's Failed Attempt to Overthrow Venezuela's President

A successful CIA hack of Venezuela's military payroll system, insider fights for spy agency resources, and messy opposition politics: A WIRED investigation reveals a secret Trump-era attempt to oust autocratic ruler Nicolás Maduro.

Illustration of a cabinet with Trump and Maduro's faces on the doors. Inside is a Venezuelan soldier oil barrel U.S. FBI...

Illustration: Sam Green


On September 26, 2018, Venezuelan president Nicolás Maduro approached the lectern at the United Nations General Assembly in New York City. Hulking and mustachioed, wearing a black suit and a bright red tie, Maduro was in a bilious mood.

At home, Maduro’s political position was deteriorating. The former bus driver turned autocrat had ruled Venezuela for five years, and had recently “won” reelection in a contest widely considered to be fraudulent. But he was facing stiffer-than-expected pushback. Anti-government protests were wracking the oil-rich South American nation. Hyperinflation was obliterating its economy. More than a million Venezuelans had fled, triggering a hemispheric refugee crisis.

For some time, the Trump administration had been working furiously to push Maduro—an ally of Cuba and Russia—out of power. In fact, then-president Donald Trump had even mused publicly about exercising “a possible military option, if necessary,” to deal with Venezuela. The day before Maduro’s General Assembly address, Trump stood at the same UN podium, called the situation in Venezuela a “human tragedy,” and decried the “suffering, corruption, and decay” wrought by communist and socialist regimes. The US president then announced the imposition of new sanctions against members of Maduro’s inner circle.


When Maduro began his UN address, he was raring to punch back. His country was the “victim of a permanent aggression” by the “imperial” United States, he said. Venezuela’s attempt at geopolitical independence—and huge gold and petroleum reserves—had aroused the ire and avarice of the “oligarchies of the continent and those who dominate from Washington,” he added.

Maduro’s harangue got darker. He claimed that a recent attempt on his life—two drones had exploded during an address he was giving outdoors in Caracas—had been masterminded by shadowy actors from within the United States. (Trump administration officials publicly denied any role in the drone attack and a dissident member of the Venezuelan army later claimed responsibility.) In recent days, Maduro had even said he was considering skipping the UN meeting altogether, because he was worried about an assassination attempt.


As bitter adversaries, the Trump administration and Maduro regime didn’t agree on, well, anything. Except for the fact that the US government wanted Maduro gone.

After that UN meeting, the Trump administration amped up its efforts around the world to isolate and depose the Venezuelan leader, including by levying additional punishing sanctions against his regime. Much of that diplomatic maneuvering played out in public. But the administration also put into motion another, very much secret prong to the US’s regime-change campaign: a covert CIA-run initiative to help overthrow the Venezuelan strongman.

That campaign would pull off at least one disruptive digital sabotage operation against the Maduro regime in 2019. But the CIA-led initiative—alongside the Trump administration’s wider efforts to get rid of Maduro—would fall well short of its ultimate goal. The story of that secret anti-Maduro effort also lays bare the tensions between an administration with hardliners laser-focused on deposing the Venezuelan autocrat and a CIA deeply reluctant, yet nevertheless obligated, to follow White House orders. It shows the limitations of covert, CIA-assisted regime change schemes, particularly when they are not aligned with larger US foreign policy objectives. And it provides new insights into how a second Trump administration—or a Harris presidency—might still try to dislodge the Venezuelan strongman, whose latest sham reelection in July 2024 has again thrust his country into chaos.

The details of that covert CIA-assisted campaign, told exclusively to WIRED by eight Trump administration and former agency officials with knowledge of the anti-Maduro operation, are reported here for the first time.

On January 23, 2019, Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó stood before throngs of cheering protestors at a rally in Caracas. With his right hand held aloft, he declared himself interim president of Venezuela, with the full backing from the National Assembly, the country’s highest legislative body. That day, Guaidó vowed to “reestablish the constitution”—which many believed Maduro, whose second term had begun earlier that month, had repeatedly trampled.

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Guaidó’s rise in 2019 helped cement US national security advisor John Bolton’s conviction that “it was time to turn the screws” on Maduro, according to Bolton’s memoir. “The revolution was on,” writes Bolton. After Guaidó’s speech, the administration recognized him as Venezuela’s rightful acting leader, and went to work lobbying other countries to do the same. (Around 60 countries would ultimately recognize Guaidó.) In late January, the Trump administration also announced its harshest Venezuela-related sanctions to date, targeting the country’s state-owned oil company and freezing billions of dollars in Venezuelan state assets. Around that time, the administration turned to the CIA to seek the agency’s help in ousting Maduro, according to former US officials familiar with the secret program. (Sources requested anonymity to discuss sensitive White House deliberations and CIA operations. The CIA declined to comment.)

The CIA quickly assembled a Venezuela Task Force. That group had its work cut out for it. Before the Trump administration’s directive, Venezuela was a low priority at Langley, and capabilities had to be built from the ground up, according to the administration and former CIA officials. One of the task force’s first goals: an expansion of efforts to hack Venezuelan government networks and other infrastructure targets for intelligence-gathering purposes.

Very quickly, the task force ran into roadblocks. It had to fight—sometimes unsuccessfully—for access to important resources, like elite CIA and NSA hacking teams. Those teams usually worked on higher-profile targets, according to a former agency official. In fact, when officials in the administration asked to have NSA hacking resources redirected to Venezuela, a former Trump-era official said top Pentagon officials “pushed back hard.”

Ultimately, the CIA successfully carried out a disruptive strike against Maduro: a cyberattack on the state-administered payroll system used to compensate members of Venezuela’s military, according to four Trump administration and former CIA officials. The gambit, which took months for the agency to even attempt thanks to the internal struggle for resources, had been designed to push teetering Venezuelan military officials to the Guaidó camp.

Former officials differ slightly in their descriptions of the payroll-related operation. Some characterize it as a remote-access cyberattack; others, as a digital sabotage operation enabled by agents on the ground. Regardless of how the cyberattack was carried out, the result was unhappy soldiers—and a risk to Maduro’s grip on power.

Temporarily denying Venezuelan soldiers from receiving their paychecks was part of the administration’s goal to “exacerbate, or just further reveal, the ineptitudes of the regime,” a former national security official says. And it had some effect, says a former senior official: “There was a fair amount of grumbling about not getting paid,” the official says. “Armies march on their stomach.”

The secret CIA-led campaign had other prongs too. The agency launched a covert influence campaign to spread pro-democracy content online in Venezuela, spun up a “democracy promotion” program to secretly sponsor leadership trainings, and provided support to Venezuelan civic groups, according to former US officials.

But as these efforts got under way, more cracks between the administration and the CIA started to show. Trump administration officials were unimpressed by the agency’s “democracy promotion” efforts. The CIA’s secret program appeared to be indistinguishable from pro-democracy initiatives carried out openly by other government agencies like USAID, according to four former officials. It was “the most embarrassing bullshit ever,” says a former national security official—“not even sinister,” but “purely lazy.” To some Trump administration officials, the presence in Venezuela of a viable, legitimate opposition leader like Guaidó, and the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe in the country, made the CIA’s covert “pro-democracy” campaign appear farcical.

“The average person has lost 25 pounds,” a former official says. “They have no food, they have no electricity, they have no jobs, they have no medicine. And we're going to tell them about democracy?”

All this led some administration officials to believe that the CIA was focusing on the democracy-promotion efforts to wriggle out of conducting more hard-edged covert operations. It “was their excuse for not doing other things,” says a former US official. “I felt like they were playing with us.”

“The CIA is not the Mossad. It's hunkered down, bureaucratic, and not daring … I'd like to see an intelligence community that's more capable of carrying out clandestine operations in support of American policy,” Bolton tells WIRED. (Bolton declined to comment on any specific agency activities or discussions within the Trump administration about Venezuela-related covert operations.)

To some Trump-era officials, CIA executives—including CIA director Gina Haspel—were clearly opposed to the administration’s directive. Haspel “never bought into doing anything aggressive in Venezuela because she was still of the mind that we were ugly Americans,” says a senior Trump-era official. Haspel declined to comment.

"Part of the intelligence community is still traumatized by the Bay of Pigs invasion and failure. That's number one,” Bolton says. “Number two, other parts of it are still traumatized by the Obama administration view that we have no enemies in Latin America. Castro regime's OK. Chavez-Maduro regime's OK. They're not really threats. Ortega and Nicaragua was not really a threat. That wasn't my view."

Still, administration officials continued to push the CIA and Pentagon to take combative actions. Like one that involved Cuba.
Cuba relies on oil from Venezuela. In return, US officials believe, the Cuban security services have helped protect Maduro, essentially serving as an on-the-ground praetorian guard for the embattled socialist autocrat. The Trump administration thought if the US could somehow intercept or sabotage the oil ships sailing from Venezuela to Cuba, it could strike a blow against both regimes. Senior administration officials held meetings with paramilitary experts to look at the mechanics of such an operation. At least one option involved the CIA, which had a mobile system that could covertly (and nonviolently) disable ships. Trump administration officials wanted the agency to move the system near Venezuela, to hit some of its fuel tankers. The agency balked. CIA officials explained that it only had one of these systems, that it was currently in another hemisphere, and they didn’t want to move it to the northern end of South America. The idea was shelved.

That wasn’t the end of it. Some administration officials lobbied for US special operators to conduct sabotage operations within Venezuela. But US intelligence and Pentagon officials were deeply opposed to having any American boots on the ground in the country. Those options were taken off the table too.

At least once, Colombia stepped into the breach. The Colombians have a long history of working with CIA and Pentagon paramilitaries. Now they agreed to launch an operation inside Venezuela to disable some of the Venezuelan air force’s prized Russian-made Sukhoi fighter jets. The US provided targeting intelligence. But when the Colombian operatives carried out the sabotage, says a former senior official, the gambit was not as successful as initially hoped. The operatives were able to disable just a few of the aircraft.

As the days went by, hawks like Bolton tried to keep Trump focused on ousting Maduro. The national security advisor wrote in his memoir that, in a late January 2019 phone call with the opposition leader, Trump had assured Guaidó he’d “pull off Maduro’s overthrow.” On that call Trump had also, Bolton writes, alluded to the US’s interest in Venezuela’s oil. But as various efforts plodded along, the president’s confidence in Guaidó’s team started to waver.

Trump just wasn’t sure Guaidó was up for the job. In contrast to the “strong” Maduro, Trump thought Guaidó was “weak,” writes Bolton. The president began to refer to Guaidó as the “Beto O’Rourke of Venezuela.” In early March of that year, according to the memoir, Trump told Bolton, “He doesn’t have what it takes.”

Bolton and his allies didn’t let up. They even developed “day after” plans for Guaidó’s ascension. A pilot program spearheaded by the US Treasury Department, known as “Venezuela Day One,” was to involve the mass distribution of preloaded debit cards, from the Spanish banking powerhouse Banco Santander, which worked closely with the administration on the initiative. The idea was to give a financial lifeline to needy Venezuelans in the immediate post-Maduro era. That plan, along with other “day after” initiatives, ended up shelved. Banco Santander declined WIRED’s request to comment.

Illustration of Trump and Maduro walking through a room of mirrors

Illustration: Sam Green

Meanwhile, fractures within the administration deepened. Even by the hawkish standards of the Trump administration, the Bolton camp’s Venezuela strategy was considered aggressive. At one point, officials created a working group focused on Venezuela. It included the CIA and the State, Treasury, and Defense departments. One group it—intentionally—did not include: Bolton and his allies on the National Security Council, says a former State Department official. The CIA “sort of thought they were dealing with Oliver North,” another official says, adding that the spy agency “reacted in an equal and opposite direction” to what they felt was Bolton’s aggressiveness by trying to avoid any operations that could cause blowback for the CIA.

Schisms even opened between administration hawks. By March 2019, the security situation in Venezuela was spiraling ever-downward. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo decided to shut down the US embassy in Caracas that same month. Some administration officials believed Pompeo was primarily worried about the political fallout of presiding over “another Benghazi”—the 2012 attack by Islamist militants on US government facilities in Libya that killed four Americans, including the ambassador. “Pompeo made part of his career criticizing the Obama administration on the failures in Benghazi,” Bolton says. “And I do think that was kind of etched in his mind." Pompeo did not respond to requests for comment.

Yet other former officials emphasized the existence of specific, credible threats of violence by the Maduro regime to embassy personnel, including to the top US diplomat in the country. (“It definitely was not a sort of middle-of-the-night Pompeo panic,” says a former State Department official. “There were direct threats that had been made.”)

Whatever Pompeo’s motivations, the closure of the embassy would have major implications for US intelligence-gathering in Venezuela—and for the larger US-backed push to oust Maduro, say some former officials. It was a “disaster,” one former US official says.

The US still had ways to spy on Venezuelan targets remotely. But before the embassy closure, officials in Washington would talk to important Venezuelans, taking the political temperature and coordinating potential defections from the Maduro camp; then CIA and State Department officials on the ground in the country would confirm details with these people in person. By shutting down the embassy, say Trump-era officials, US efforts to oust Maduro were dealt a big blow. “It all got screwed up in the stupidest way,” a former national security official says.

Of course, much in Venezuela was outside the control of officials in Washington. The opposition was working with sympathetic regime members to lobby members of Venezuela’s high court to rule Maduro’s reelection illegitimate. It was also negotiating with powerful regime members, including Maduro’s own defense minister, to cut Maduro loose. But the opposition made some big missteps.

After a bunch of delays, Guaidó’s plan to overthrow Maduro was—finally—to come together on April 30, 2019. That day, Guaidó publicly announced “Operation Liberty,” exhorting military members to defect and calling for massive street protests. Trump administration officials believed that Maduro was close to abdicating the presidency, maybe even fleeing to Cuba.

Then it all fell apart.

There was a lot of miscommunication and mistrust between critical players in the opposition and Maduro’s equivocating supporters. At the last minute, major Venezuelan officials backed off the ledge. Mass military desertions failed to materialize. The Venezuelan high court chickened out. The protests were a flop. Maduro, bolstered by Cuban security forces at his side, rallied his supporters. The momentum had shifted against regime change. Though the Venezuelan opposition—and the Trump administration—would limp along in their attempts to oust Maduro, the best chance had been lost. Trump administration officials found themselves “spinning the[ir] wheels for months,” says a former national security official.

If the CIA had intervened more forcefully between January and April—when schisms within the military and among other Venezuelan elites were the biggest and Guaidó had the most momentum—it might have helped catalyze Maduro’s ouster, say former officials. But the agency didn’t.

“As [former secretary of defense Donald] Rumsfeld once said, you go to war with the army you have,” Bolton says. “And we had a lack of capability in a number of agencies, including the intelligence community. We couldn't wait around for them to happen. So we had to do the best we could."

“There was a handful of sabotage and cyber stuff that was done,” says a former national security official. “But it was too little, too late.” Even the one major CIA action—the digital sabotage operation that disabled the Venezuelan military payroll system—happened after the opposition began to lose momentum in 2019, according to the former official.

After the payroll sabotage operation, the Venezuela Task Force began to wither. “It was kind of a one trick pony,” says a former senior agency official. CIA officials were “doing this 16 hours a day for four weeks. And then it's over—nobody gives a shit anymore,” says another former agency official. This sort of frenzied, time-compressed approach to covert action was highly unusual, this person adds.

“Trump never made it enough of a priority for the rest of the national security components of the government to step up” and help overthrow the Venezuelan leader, says a former senior administration official. “Haspel,” the source says, “was absolutely not inclined to lean forward unless someone brought her into the Oval Office and said, ‘You know, you have to do this.’ And it never reached that point.” What’s more, in September 2019, Trump pushed out Bolton, the most steadfast driver of the administration’s Venezuela-related efforts.

When the presidency changed hands, the Biden administration tried a different approach. In October 2023, worried about rising gasoline prices and a spiraling refugee crisis—and looking to cleave Venezuela from Russia, China, and Iran’s orbit— administration officials brokered a deal with Maduro. For agreeing to allow free and fair presidential elections in July 2024 and accepting Venezuelan refugees deported by the US, the US would ease some of the tough Trump-era sanctions on the nation’s energy sector.

Maduro quickly reneged on the deal. His administration disqualified and barred leading opposition candidates from running for president, and kicked off a broad anti-democratic crackdown. Six months later, the Biden administration reimposed oil sanctions against the regime.

This past July, Maduro declared victory in a vote once again marred by widespread fraud. Mass protests spread throughout Venezuela. Thousands of civilians were arrested. In August, US secretary of state Antony Blinken said there was “overwhelming evidence” that opposition candidate Edmundo González Urrutia had won the election. In September, fearing arrest or assassination, González fled to Spain. (In a recent interview, Trump called Maduro a “dictator,” but also seemed to praise the regime for what it claimed to be successful efforts to lower crime in Caracas, calling it “safer than many of our cities.”)

At the moment, the authoritarian Maduro’s grip on power seems secure. But there might be a “silver lining” to all the Venezuela-focused intelligence activity prompted by the Trump administration’s anti-Maduro campaign, a former CIA official says. Before that, US spy agencies had never devoted much energy to sophisticated cyberespionage or signals intelligence collection targeting Venezuela, according to the former official.

But now, this source says, US intelligence agencies have “a lot better access” to Venezuela-related intelligence. “There could be some benefit down the line.”
Suppose should start saying goodbye to Venezuelan sovereignty now the only thing stopping US takeover is potential sheer incompetence from a Kash Patel CIA leadership
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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"A system where wealth is de facto outlawed"? Get a hold of yourself. We're talking about a relatively modest tax on people whose wealth is over $100 million.

Don't worry, the obscenely wealthy will still be able to make obscene amounts of money.
But they won't be able to have all the money, which as we all know is basically communism.
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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If unrealized gains can't be taxed because the the stock technically isn't worth anything until it's sold then billionaires shouldn't be able to take out loans using their stock as collateral.

That's how billionaires avoid paying taxes, they take out loans based on the value of their stock because loans can't be taxed.

If we made it impossible to take out loans based on unrealized value then billionaires would have to use their actual wealth rather than just hording it while using other people's money to buy things for themselves to avoid taxes.

Stocks can't both have no value and therefore be nontaxable, but also have enough value that you can use them to take out loans. Either they have value or they don't.
 

tstorm823

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"A system where wealth is de facto outlawed"? Get a hold of yourself. We're talking about a relatively modest tax on people whose wealth is over $100 million.
Taxing you more money than you have because your assets are valuable, thus forcing you to sell off assets to pay for taxes, makes owning things on paper toxic. It is a degenerative system.
If unrealized gains can't be taxed because the the stock technically isn't worth anything until it's sold then billionaires shouldn't be able to take out loans using their stock as collateral.

That's how billionaires avoid paying taxes, they take out loans based on the value of their stock because loans can't be taxed.

If we made it impossible to take out loans based on unrealized value then billionaires would have to use their actual wealth rather than just hording it while using other people's money to buy things for themselves to avoid taxes.
I'd support taxing the assessed value of assets at the point where they are used as collateral for a loan, with the normal reasonable exceptions for things like primary residences or small businesses.
 

Silvanus

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Taxing you more money than you have because your assets are valuable, thus forcing you to sell off assets to pay for taxes, makes owning things on paper toxic. It is a degenerative system.
There is nothing forcing these people to sell the assets. People with wealth over 100m are not lacking enough in the bank to pay a modest tax. They already pay other taxes without issue; you may as well argue that property or council taxes shouldn't exist because they "force" people to sell their properties.

And if they literally are so cash poor they cannot pay minor taxes, but hold 100m in untaxable forms? Then that's not a stable or healthy situation at all, and such people should be pushed out of it.

When immaterial wealth is not so insanely concentrated in a few thousand hands, the case for unrealised gains tax becomes less pressing.
 

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Here ya go. But we both know what's coming next, don't we? Now you'll dismiss the source altogether, because apparently we have to accept what your favoured thinktanks say and ignore the ones you don't like.



And yet you can't identify a single one you'd actually stand by.

I'm not doing your research for you. If you have a point, make it, don't just gesture vaguely at articles full of bunk and expect me to sift through the bullshit.
I provided a source that doesn't lean in any direction, you provide a source that's a progressive think-tank, I'm not shocked at all. You just like your source because it agrees with you, plain and simple. Your source used 401Ks as an example of normal people not being able to avoid capital gains taxes but a roth 401K isn't taxed when you take out money because the income was already taxed when going in so you have 0 taxes on any gains, unrealized or realized.

You skipped over the part of how US citizens are put are disadvantages over foreign investors.

If unrealized gains can't be taxed because the the stock technically isn't worth anything until it's sold then billionaires shouldn't be able to take out loans using their stock as collateral.

That's how billionaires avoid paying taxes, they take out loans based on the value of their stock because loans can't be taxed.

If we made it impossible to take out loans based on unrealized value then billionaires would have to use their actual wealth rather than just hording it while using other people's money to buy things for themselves to avoid taxes.

Stocks can't both have no value and therefore be nontaxable, but also have enough value that you can use them to take out loans. Either they have value or they don't.
Yes, the stock market is the issue so fix that (then borrowing against that would make more sense). The problem is stocks are valued at whatever value people think they are worth vs what they are actually worth.
 

tstorm823

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No, that seems fine.
If you think that's fine, you don't have to say no.
There is nothing forcing these people to sell the assets. People with wealth over 100m are not lacking enough in the bank to pay a modest tax. They already pay other taxes without issue; you may as well argue that property or council taxes shouldn't exist because they "force" people to sell their properties.
The S&P500 in 2023 grew 24% on average. If you own $100 million in the S&P at the beginning of 2023, your net worth after would be $124 million. The proposed 25% tax by the Harris campaign on unrealized gains would be $6 million. For some of the people in that bracket, that's probably more than their entire annual income.

On a tax like this, there is a mathematical equilibrium where owning more requires more money than you make to pay for the taxes, and any amount of wealth above this is effectively outlawed. To move this equilibrium line, the wealthy would need to increase the amount of cash income they have or slow down the growth of the economy, neither of which is the goal you're looking for.
 

Cicada 5

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Probably more related to capitalism, but noone reads the relevant thread for it




Suppose should start saying goodbye to Venezuelan sovereignty now the only thing stopping US takeover is potential sheer incompetence from a Kash Patel CIA leadership
So, Venezuela's safe?
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Yes, the stock market is the issue so fix that (then borrowing against that would make more sense). The problem is stocks are valued at whatever value people think they are worth vs what they are actually worth.
That's true of literally any asset, not just stocks.

Why is a painting or a house worth a specific amount of money? Because someone was willing to pay that amount.

Things don't have a specifically determined intrinsic value.

I mean, the stock market is an issue, but not necessarily the way that things are valuated on the stock market. The real issue with the stock market is that buying stocks doesn't provide any real value to a company beyond the initial stock offering, and that CEO compensation in companies has been tied to stock price rather than other performance metrics, so CEOs are rewarded for short term stock price gains rather than long-term company health. Essentially stocks no longer do what they were initially designed to do.

I mean, I can go into detail into why the stock market as it currently exists is dumb, and I have before on this site. That's not really important to the current discussion though.
 

Phoenixmgs

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That's true of literally any asset, not just stocks.

Why is a painting or a house worth a specific amount of money? Because someone was willing to pay that amount.

Things don't have a specifically determined intrinsic value.

I mean, the stock market is an issue, but not necessarily the way that things are valuated on the stock market. The real issue with the stock market is that buying stocks doesn't provide any real value to a company beyond the initial stock offering, and that CEO compensation in companies has been tied to stock price rather than other performance metrics, so CEOs are rewarded for short term stock price gains rather than long-term company health. Essentially stocks no longer do what they were initially designed to do.

I mean, I can go into detail into why the stock market as it currently exists is dumb, and I have before on this site. That's not really important to the current discussion though.
There's ways to objectively value a company.
 

Satinavian

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The S&P500 in 2023 grew 24% on average. If you own $100 million in the S&P at the beginning of 2023, your net worth after would be $124 million. The proposed 25% tax by the Harris campaign on unrealized gains would be $6 million. For some of the people in that bracket, that's probably more than their entire annual income.
And ? Then they sell 6 million of the stocks to pay for taxes and still have 118 million in stocks. I really really don't see the problem.
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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There's ways to objectively value a company.
Not really.

I mean sure you can value the physical things that the company owns, but you can't really value things like intellectual property, patents, relationships, potential future growth, etc.

Some companies are worth more than others simply due to nebulous things like consumer good-will. How do you put a dollar value on that, especially given how fickle it is?

And even if you're just trying to objectively take into account the physical property that the company owns, evaluating a company based on that also gets awkward. Take for example 2 companies which do the exact same thing in the same industry with roughly the same market-share. One company doesn't own an office space and has all of its employees working fully remote whereas the other company owns its own offices and has employees working on site. Which is more valuable?

On the one hand the company that owns the office could potentially go full remote if they want and then lease out their office space for extra income. The office is a tangible asset that they can utilize. On the other hand they have costs associated with running and maintaining an office building that the fully remote company doesn't, and the office itself could potentially be a liability if it's not a desirable space or location. Additionally, they would have spent money to buy that office building that the remote company didn't, so the remote company might have used that money for something more profitable.

There's a reason that there's always disagreements on whether any company is properly valued within the marketplace or not, because there isn't an objective way to do it, there's multiple subjective ways thought up by different evaluators.
 
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Silvanus

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I provided a source that doesn't lean in any direction, you provide a source that's a progressive think-tank, I'm not shocked at all.
Your think tank does lean. It leans against taxing corporations or the wealthy.

You just like your source because it agrees with you, plain and simple.
Dude, you asked me to provide an example of researchers favouring an unrealised gains tax. Now you're whining because I did?
 
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Silvanus

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If you think that's fine, you don't have to say no.

The S&P500 in 2023 grew 24% on average. If you own $100 million in the S&P at the beginning of 2023, your net worth after would be $124 million. The proposed 25% tax by the Harris campaign on unrealized gains would be $6 million. For some of the people in that bracket, that's probably more than their entire annual income.

On a tax like this, there is a mathematical equilibrium where owning more requires more money than you make to pay for the taxes, and any amount of wealth above this is effectively outlawed. To move this equilibrium line, the wealthy would need to increase the amount of cash income they have or slow down the growth of the economy, neither of which is the goal you're looking for.
Ah, so you don't mean "wealth is outlawed", you mean "a certain level of wealth above $100m is more difficult to maintain while keeping your taxable income the same". Doesn't sound quite so catastrophic, does it?

I'm fine with people being pushed out of that situation. It's economically unhealthy, and either shares will be held by a wider body of people rather than being insanely concentrated (good) or wealth will be transferred into liquid, taxable, more active forms (also good).

The idea that someone with 124m, with wealth growing by 24m a year, should be taxed less than 6m precisely because that wealth wasn't made by working is fucking obscene.