Funny events in anti-woke world

Silvanus

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In your opinion it does but you're not a tax expert.
"In my opinion" your think tank leans?

OK then, right back at you. You claimed my thinktank was biased. But that's just your opinion and you're not a tax expert.

The fact of the matter is we both provided think tanks. Neither had more authority than the other.

And if I gave your a conservative think tank as a source, you wouldn't accept it either.
You gave one that favours big business. In this conversation, that's functionally identical; yours and mine are two sides of the same discussion.
 
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tstorm823

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The contribution of tax to the treasury is what contributes to society.

Though the wider distribution of shares over a larger group of people, making it less concentrated, is a separate societal benefit.
Alternatively, it would concentrate ownership of businesses to those with the greatest cash flow, drawing both resources away from the less wealthy.

And again, you're not instituting a new tax or generating additional revenue (outside of people dying), you are just changing when, and the associated incentives.
 

Agema

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Every time you or I buy a product, like any smart phone or just basically any electronics, the components pass through dozens of countries, which will increase CO2 for some of the same countries.
I don't think this is necessarily a huge problem, per se. What might be more a problem is the fact some people think they should have a new iPhone every year, when really they should last several. Or replace their wardrobe every season, when a well-made item of clothing should last years. I strongly suspect this is all a much greater problem.

Even social security is backed up by US Treasury bills based off of US economic growth and US military backing, which uses lots of fossil fuels.
Yes, but it doesn't need to use fossil fuels. It does, because the fossil fuel industry has thoroughly convinced enough people - and sloshed enough money into politicians' pockets - that oil is the American dream. But to replace a lot of fossil fuel use doesn't delete large quantities of wealth and investment. It simply moves it somewhere else.
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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And again, you're not instituting a new tax or generating additional revenue (outside of people dying), you are just changing when, and the associated incentives.
If rich people can continuously put off paying taxes by using their assets as collateral for loans, and then using loans to pay off other loans, then yes, having a wealth tax does in fact create additional revenue for the government which would not otherwise be available.

It's trashy for poor people to live beyond their means by buying things with credit cards, and then opening more credit cards to pay off those credit cards. For some reason rich people doing the same thing on a larger scale with stocks is somehow seen as normal and classy.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Perpetual mental collapsar Marjorie Taylor Greene calls for a "national divorce" between red and blue states.


I suppose nobody's told her that red states, as a whole, are net money sinks for the national coffers, supported by blue states. If she wants that divorce, there ain't gonna be no alimony.

Also, she wants anyone who moves from a blue state to a red state to maybe not be able to vote for half a decade.

What I think would be something that some red states could propose is: well, okay, if Democrat voters choose to flee these blue states where they cannot tolerate the living conditions, they don't want their children taught these horrible things, and they really change their mind on the types of policies that they support, well once they move to a red state, guess what, maybe you don't get to vote for five years.
 
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Gordon_4

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I don't think this is necessarily a huge problem, per se. What might be more a problem is the fact some people think they should have a new iPhone every year, when really they should last several. Or replace their wardrobe every season, when a well-made item of clothing should last years. I strongly suspect this is all a much greater problem.
Smartphones in general are tricky because once they stop getting security patches they become a liability. Apple trends toward a 6 year support cycle per device after which it is dropped. For what it is worth though, my model 11 I have had since launch in 2019 still works just fine. But I am going to have to replace it by 2026 or else I’ve got a big old cyber hole in my pocket at all times. Or at least a bigger one than they already are.

Clothes I don’t get though. My wife and family have to practically threaten me to go buy new clothing because as long as it doesn’t have a hole in it bigger than my fist, I’ll still wear it. People who cycle in new shit every season baffle the fuck out of me. I mean I got really bothered a coat I had - a letterman style sports jacket - I’d had since eight grade but still fit me into my late 20s got lost cos my dumb arse left it on the roof of my car and drove away with it. My only hope was since it was winter then someone who needed it picked it up. So yeah new clothes every season is fucking weird.
 
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tstorm823

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If rich people can continuously put off paying taxes by using their assets as collateral for loans, and then using loans to pay off other loans, then yes, having a wealth tax does in fact create additional revenue for the government which would not otherwise be available.

It's trashy for poor people to live beyond their means by buying things with credit cards, and then opening more credit cards to pay off those credit cards. For some reason rich people doing the same thing on a larger scale with stocks is somehow seen as normal and classy.
I agree with regulating that practice away.
 

Silvanus

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Alternatively, it would concentrate ownership of businesses to those with the greatest cash flow, drawing both resources away from the less wealthy.
Those with over 100m in wealth are not the less wealthy. And they are the only ones who would be even theoretically encouraged to sell/ not hoard. If anything, more mobile shares could increase market accessibility.

And again, you're not instituting a new tax or generating additional revenue (outside of people dying), you are just changing when, and the associated incentives.
...do you think the idea is for this to replace capital gains, as a one-off at some arbitrary point, & the same rate? What? That's the only scenario in which this paragraph makes sense.
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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I agree with regulating that practice away.
The problem with regulating that practice away is that the US could only do so with regards to American banks, and there would still be plenty of international banks that would continue giving these loans and using stock as collateral. UK and Swiss banks are well known for being willing to skirt or outright ignore international banking regulations when it suits them.

There's also the problem of what do we do with the loans that those banks have already given to billionaires? When you owe the bank a million dollars the bank owns you. When you owe the bank a billion dollars you own the bank. What about Elon Musk owing $44 billion to banks to buy Twitter? Do we force the repayment of those loans to the banks before regulating away the ability to use stock as collateral? But they don't have "real" money to pay the banks back!

Essentially the extremely wealthy are creating debt bombs, and when they explode there's going to be yet another financial crisis and more bank bailouts paid by tax dollars. Essentially we'll be paying off the debts of the billionaires to the banks while they continue to skate with their horded wealth.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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These people will never shut up about censorship that doesn't exist.
So, chuckles will only believe Sony changed when they allow games like Stellar Blade to be released on PlayStation, but Stellar Blade itself doesn't count. The only conclusion I can reach is that fanservice of adult characters doesn't count as fanservice.
 
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tstorm823

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...do you think the idea is for this to replace capital gains, as a one-off at some arbitrary point, & the same rate? What? That's the only scenario in which this paragraph makes sense.
It would be taxed as the value increased, probably annually. So if you buy $100 million in stocks, and they increase to $124 in a year, you pay on the $24 million increase. If next year it grows to $150 million, you pay on the $26 million increase from the $124. Over two years, you were taxed on the $50 million increase. Currently, if you buy $100 million in stocks and sell for $150 million later, you pay capital gains tax on the $50 million increase. Either way, you are taxed on the same amount. You can tax on both, I suppose, but outside of schemes involving the wealthy person dying without selling, the same amount is getting taxed at different times, it is functionally no different than just increasing capital gains tax as far as revenue, and is just different in what the incentives are, which is why those are what we are talking about.
The problem with regulating that practice away is that the US could only do so with regards to American banks, and there would still be plenty of international banks that would continue giving these loans and using stock as collateral. UK and Swiss banks are well known for being willing to skirt or outright ignore international banking regulations when it suits them.

There's also the problem of what do we do with the loans that those banks have already given to billionaires? When you owe the bank a million dollars the bank owns you. When you owe the bank a billion dollars you own the bank. What about Elon Musk owing $44 billion to banks to buy Twitter? Do we force the repayment of those loans to the banks before regulating away the ability to use stock as collateral? But they don't have "real" money to pay the banks back!

Essentially the extremely wealthy are creating debt bombs, and when they explode there's going to be yet another financial crisis and more bank bailouts paid by tax dollars. Essentially we'll be paying off the debts of the billionaires to the banks while they continue to skate with their horded wealth.
Do a targeted property tax specifically on holdings used as collateral at a percentage of the value they were considered collateral for, and make it come due if the loan isn't repaid within a reasonable time frame (with exceptions for primary residence, etc.). The ambiguity of asset values is answered in the loan contract itself, it pressures them to repay loans in a predictable time frame that would prevent perpetual loan schemes, and it wouldn't inherently put anyone in the position of selling their assets to pay to keep them since they already made the decision to risk them by setting them as collateral. I think that answers the problem without disincentivizing investment, and not taxing the loans themselves per se should overcome the foreign banking issue. It doesn't even have to be a modest tax, let it be punitive, it's totally avoidable and taxes behavior we actively want discouraged.
 

Silvanus

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You can tax on both, I suppose,
Bingo. Ideally It wouldn't be a replacement (though i think the Dems' Green Book had it as an either/or).

Regardless, I've already covered how timing actually matters quite a lot. The treasury having access to millions in reliable funds every year is a damn sight more useful than a lump sum at some indeterminate point in the future, potentially decades away, depending on the whims of some guy.
 
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Agema

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Also, she wants anyone who moves from a blue state to a red state to maybe not be able to vote for half a decade.
If the concept is that you have to earn "citizenship", usually by going through several years as a resident alien without voting rights, at least there's some logic there. However, it's a logic that fits the red/blue divorce being a full blown split into different sovereign states. Otherwise, it's just another right-winger with a disappointingly tenuous belief in democratic principles.
 

Chimpzy

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Perpetual mental collapsar Marjorie Taylor Greene calls for a "national divorce" between red and blue states.


I suppose nobody's told her that red states, as a whole, are net money sinks for the national coffers, supported by blue states. If she wants that divorce, there ain't gonna be no alimony.

Also, she wants anyone who moves from a blue state to a red state to maybe not be able to vote for half a decade.
1732094671648.gif
 
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tstorm823

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Regardless, I've already covered how timing actually matters quite a lot. The treasury having access to millions in reliable funds every year is a damn sight more useful than a lump sum at some indeterminate point in the future, potentially decades away, depending on the whims of some guy.
Unless your policy drives the price down and eliminates people of the wealth you aimed at, and then it doesn't generate revenue at all.
 

Silvanus

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Unless your policy drives the price down and eliminates people of the wealth you aimed at, and then it doesn't generate revenue at all.
Hold on. You're arguing that as the value increases, the price will go down?

Even hypothetically, if someone of 100m+ was pushed out of that bracket, that wealth doesn't disappear. That same wealth would still be taxed (as capital gains). It would just be less concentrated.
 

tstorm823

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Hold on. You're arguing that as the value increases, the price will go down?

Even hypothetically, if someone of 100m+ was pushed out of that bracket, that wealth doesn't disappear. That same wealth would still be taxed (as capital gains). It would just be less concentrated.
Supply and demand. The more of something being sold, the lower the equilibrium price falls. If holding stocks incurs a cost, you need to sell. When people are selling, the price falls. Then you aren't taxing anyway. It wouldn't stop market growth entirely, but it would put a downward force on it.
 

Satinavian

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It would be taxed as the value increased, probably annually. So if you buy $100 million in stocks, and they increase to $124 in a year, you pay on the $24 million increase. If next year it grows to $150 million, you pay on the $26 million increase from the $124. Over two years, you were taxed on the $50 million increase. Currently, if you buy $100 million in stocks and sell for $150 million later, you pay capital gains tax on the $50 million increase. Either way, you are taxed on the same amount.
Supply and demand. The more of something being sold, the lower the equilibrium price falls. If holding stocks incurs a cost, you need to sell. When people are selling, the price falls. Then you aren't taxing anyway. It wouldn't stop market growth entirely, but it would put a downward force on it.
Which is it now ? Either people are basically paying the same, just at different times or they actually pay more. If the first was the case, the price would not be influenced.