US 2024 Presidential Election

Trunkage

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Ozempic is 10x more money in the US than it is in the UK. It's not the insurance companies that set the prices. M4A won't work in the US because we don't have to money to pay such exorbitant prices for healthcare. Just look at the profit margins insurance companies, they are rather low. You're placing your anger in the wrong spot.
The prices for drugs are cheaper everywhere else because the government (eg. UK) is allowed to negotiate prices under their M4A.

Hayekian capitalism states that the government should never be allowed to do this because it's 'not capitalism'. Other countries never fell for his nonsense like American did.

America does not allow for cheaper prices because they ascribe to one version of Capitalism. And, like most Hayekian concepts, it steals from the poor to give to the rich
 

Trunkage

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The manufacturers aren't blameless, and neither is the government, but it really is the insurances that deserve the most blame, and it has everything to do with not paying the cost on paper. Insurances (in tandem with PBMs) negotiate ridiculous discounts with the manufacturers specifically in the form of rebates.
I'll give you a general agreement with the caveat that they will probably find a loop hole. This is not me disagreement with you, just me being cranky with the system and it doesn't fill me with hope

Edit: I should state, the hope I don't have is this won't be solved with more violence
 

tippy2k2

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Ozempic is 10x more money in the US than it is in the UK. It's not the insurance companies that set the prices. M4A won't work in the US because we don't have to money to pay such exorbitant prices for healthcare. Just look at the profit margins insurance companies, they are rather low. You're placing your anger in the wrong spot.
It's amazing that every other first world country has somehow figured out how to make it work but it's just too darn complicated for the so-called Greatest Country in the World...

Maybe all those other countries just got lucky? Or maybe we're just such special little guys that the things that work for every other country just doesn't work for us because we're just too awesome?
 
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Seanchaidh

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You're basically just describing your own personal deontological system.
That is familiar to how I describe J.S. Mill's Utilitarianism; but yes, I do not find act utilitarianism (or act anything) to be a sufficient guide to morality. A situation in which people are constantly calculating the overall good (or just saying they are) from first principles is one prone to error, inconsistency, manipulation and recrimination. There is utility in figuring out a more general approach; that does not mean that there should not be exceptions to rules, just that they should also be generalizable. Answering the question "why should we have this rule?" can be useful for finding the admissible exceptions.

For example, in any other situation, you would never consider "wanted" or "unwanted" as a rationale for why killing someone is justified.
Because the someone has or has had their own preferences and so those preferences can be respected. A society in which someone without family or friends can simply be killed for no reason and above their own objection is not one I'd want to live in. An unwanted fetus, though? The fetus doesn't care. Even if it did, it's hard to justify forcing someone to carry and birth it. But it doesn't: that the person carrying it should decide its future is very straightforward. Would abortion be robbing that person of a child? Potentially, and that should be up to them. Would abortion be relieving them of a burden? Potentially, and that should be up to them. It's their own body: it should be their choice.

and many people don't want to do things that are objectively good for them.
'Objectively' good from whose perspective? It doesn't really matter whether you think you know better their own interests, as you are in no way a reliable judge of that. This is why humans are often skeptical of paternalism: it is very easy to be dishonest about it. The suspicion against "we're doing this for your own good!" is often automatic. We tend to find the idea immediately repellent. "Who are you to say that?" we ask. We tend to favor letting the most interested person-- the one for which the action or behavior can accurately be called self-regarding-- be the judge not because they will make the right decision, not even because they are the most capable of making the right decision, but because they can be trusted at least to try to make the right decision from their own perspective. And that is much better than a situation in which someone else has intervened in their business to prescribe and enforce their own view allegedly for the good of the person compelled. An adult's behavior has to be truly erratic and disturbing to override this intuition, and even then there are some very serious questions that must be asked and answered. As for children, we are even skeptical of paternalism by parents in many cases, which is why societies generally have rules about how parents can treat their children even while recognizing a need for parenting and that it is usual that parents tend to have the best interest of their own children at heart-- or near enough, at least.

The logic doesn't hold up, what you're saying only really fits together as a list of rules you happen to hold as valid, a list that happens to carve out the allowance of abortions, but which has no broader validity than the hypothetical person you describe imagining their moral view is universal.
That we find it useful to be able to mediate between and balance the preferences of different people such that we can live in community is a more satisfying answer to the question of "why do we even have a concept of morality in the first place?" then any other I've come across. If you think morality comes from God, as some have proposed, Euthyphro is a pretty convincing trashing of that idea. Even if it were the case, why should we listen to such or care? The answer that leaps to mind is because we should have a way to mediate between and balance the preferences of different people so that we can live in community. Another likely answer "because otherwise you'll be punished (somehow)" is an ethic for livestock, not people.
 

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That is familiar to how I describe J.S. Mill's Utilitarianism; but yes, I do not find act utilitarianism (or act anything) to be a sufficient guide to morality. A situation in which people are constantly calculating the overall good (or just saying they are) from first principles is one prone to error, inconsistency, manipulation and recrimination. There is utility in figuring out a more general approach; that does not mean that there should not be exceptions to rules, just that they should also be generalizable. Answering the question "why should we have this rule?" can be useful for finding the admissible exceptions.
If a 'rule' is dependent wholly on a host of other factors, circumstances and weightings, then at what point is it just an act-utility calculation in practice?
 

Trunkage

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It's amazing that every other first world country has somehow figured out how to make it work but it's just too darn complicated for the so-called Greatest Country in the World...

Maybe all those other countries just got lucky? Or maybe we're just such special little guys that the things that work for every other country just doesn't work for us because we're just too awesome?
Well, they did get lucky. Rick Scott wasn't born in their borders. I don't know why he has been the target before because he has ruined thousands of hospitals and killed more
 

The Rogue Wolf

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It's amazing that every other first world country has somehow figured out how to make it work but it's just too darn complicated for the so-called Greatest Country in the World...

Maybe all those other countries just got lucky? Or maybe we're just such special little guys that the things that work for every other country just doesn't work for us because we're just too awesome?
Because we are absolutely convinced that not letting "the free market" control every aspect of our lives is the slippery slope to COMMUNISM, and not letting the rich get richer off the backs of the hoi polloi will lead to gun confiscation and bread lines and secret police uttering "papers, please" in a German accent.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Bannon just publicly getting Kash to promise his FBI leadership position will be used for hunting political enemies



Have fun with that I guess
 

Seanchaidh

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If a 'rule' is dependent wholly on a host of other factors, circumstances and weightings, then at what point is it just an act-utility calculation in practice?
when you have to do philosophy every time you want to do something.
 

Silvanus

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when you have to do philosophy every time you want to do something.
So it's personal convenience, then? This just sounds like you know an act calculation could be more situationally appropriate than the application of a rule, but just can't be assed to think about it.
 

tippy2k2

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Everything wrong with The Democrats/Liberals in one tweet


They ratfucked the one guy who actually called for changes to our healthcare system in the 2016 Primaries. Leftists have been screaming from the rooftops about how fucked up our shitty ass healthcare system is for decades. I personally have said many times that I just flat out refuse to vote for any politician not 100% onboard with M4A (or a similar system) and so far, there are very very very very few politicians (on either side of the aisle even though voters from across all parties want it) that qualify for my vote.
 
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gorfias

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And in that they’re objectively wrong. Why would Trump lower prices by forcing his corrupt buddies to stop price gauging. The class doing the price gauging are his buddies and peers. And his first term already proved Trump as not just unable, but also unwilling to come through in a crisis.

Whatever Trump voters hate will only get exacerbated by Trump and new problems will be mismanaged
I can only, write, we'll see.

ITMT: My daughter, a Sanders supporter, warns me all this tariff talk will cause consumer prices to rise. Controlling the border and deporting illegal aliens could foreseeably cause our GDP to shrink.

I try to point out to her, regardless, there are times we do need to do this sort of thing, ie, if China cheats in our trade deals, are we not obligated to do something about it, even if there is a cost?
 

Bedinsis

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My daughter, a Sanders supporter, warns me all this tariff talk will cause consumer prices to rise. Controlling the border and deporting illegal aliens could foreseeably cause our GDP to shrink.

I try to point out to her, regardless, there are times we do need to do this sort of thing, ie, if China cheats in our trade deals, are we not obligated to do something about it, even if there is a cost?
I agree. Clinton said "It's the economy, stupid" and was proven right in his assessment when it came to the votes, but just looking at things from the lens of what makes economic sense leaves us with a one dimensional view that can harm us in the long run and the short run. An simple enough example would be: selling weapons to entities wishing to harm American people would make some money since you'd sell weapons but it would risk Americans being harmed.

So, do you think the tariffs Trump proposed are reasonable?
 
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Seanchaidh

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So it's personal convenience, then?
No, that's just the dividing line between rule and act utilitarianism/consequentialism. You did not ask for a justification for choosing one over the other.

This just sounds like you know an act calculation could be more situationally appropriate than the application of a rule, but just can't be assed to think about it.
As a rule, bothering to do philosophy every time you want to perform any action (or bonus action!) does not promote the overall good, the greatest happiness, the general welfare, nor is it the best way to satisfy the greatest volume of preferences weighted in reasonable fashion. This is true if doing so unilaterally and even moreso if everyone is expected to do it. If nothing else, it is unduly time consuming. But that is not the only problem; it may not even be the main one, though it can be quite serious.

Act utilitarianism often suffers from a blindness to the effects of the normalization of various practices which can seem like they might be good when performed once, but tend to be pernicious if repeated. It is also quite vulnerable to hubris as a practical matter. Doing a moral calculation well is quite difficult and the effects of any action can be quite subtle. Moreover, there is utility in being able to have more specific expectations of what constitutes moral behavior than "whatever maximizes the utility function" as interpreted by whomever. So we might say that choosing a rule utilitarian approach is the proper result of an act utilitarian calculation. The weakness of a deontological approach is that rules can be wrong or should have certain as yet unrecognized exceptions. It is well and good to be mindful of this, but that does not mean embracing the relative chaos of an act utilitarian/consequentialist approach along with all of its other pitfalls. Instead, adopt a set of rules justified by the foreseeable consequences of adopting that set of rules; be willing to review and revise if something seems to go wrong.
 

Silvanus

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No, that's just the dividing line between rule and act utilitarianism/consequentialism. You did not ask for a justification for choosing one over the other.
The piss-takey description seemed to carry an implicit value judgement. It would still seem that every time you make an exception to a rule, you're acknowledging that an act calculation has taken precedence and the rule was inadequate.

As a rule, bothering to do philosophy every time you want to perform any action (or bonus action!) does not promote the overall good, the greatest happiness, the general welfare, nor is it the best way to satisfy the greatest volume of preferences weighted in reasonable fashion. This is true if doing so unilaterally and even moreso if everyone is expected to do it. If nothing else, it is unduly time consuming. But that is not the only problem; it may not even be the main one, though it can be quite serious.
It's really not very difficult or time consuming to think about the consequences of one's actions.

Act utilitarianism often suffers from a blindness to the effects of the normalization of various practices which can seem like they might be good when performed once, but tend to be pernicious if repeated. It is also quite vulnerable to hubris as a practical matter. Doing a moral calculation well is quite difficult and the effects of any action can be quite subtle.
I fail to see how all these pitfalls aren't magnified, rather than mitigated, by a rule approach. A moral calculation is still required in a rule approach-- the difference being the individual is extrapolating it onto a blanket approval/disapproval and declaring circumstances unimportant. The hubris is greater. The capacity to ignore the complexity or subtlety of an action is far greater.
 

Seanchaidh

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Reading over this post, I think the main thrust of my argument is that you should be able to see what is wrong with act utilitarianism if you have a sociological imagination. What if everyone justified their decisions in such a way without the guardrails imposed by considerations of human rights nor the signposts from various traditional values such as honesty, fairness, and so forth (that we can yet evaluate and reevaluate if they look like they might cause harm in some cases or indeed in every case for some of the more controversial traditions)? Even if done perfectly, it can have bad results. And if done imperfectly, it can be horrible. So we can say that in the long term, act utilitarianism seems like it fails based on its own foundational principle. It is not the best way to pursue utility.

It would still seem that every time you make an exception to a rule, you're acknowledging that an act calculation has taken precedence and the rule was inadequate.
An act calculation might give rise to a reevaluation of a rule, but it has hardly 'taken precedence'. E.g. abortion: it is better to say that anyone should be able to have an abortion than to evaluate each abortion for its effect on utility and allow or disallow on that basis.

That is not to say that one should not consider the consequences of their actions, only that they needn't be reconsidering the morality of theft every time they visit a relative.

It's really not very difficult or time consuming to think about the consequences of one's actions.
It is if you're operating from first principles every time and want to do it honestly and optimally. Act utilitarianism demands not just that you consider consequences but that you do the best thing as far as you can tell. Ironically, that perfectionism itself makes it more prone to serious error; there are situations that are rather uncontroversially acceptable. But what if, by sacrificing some principle or value or even person(s), you might do better than just acceptable? What if the "hard choice" is really the right thing to do? The rule utilitarian will tend to reject these unless given a very good reason not to do so, whereas the act utilitarian will be tempted-- especially if the 'sacrifice' is not something important to them but the benefit is. The result may be an atrocity.

That is not to say rule utilitarians are not capable of the same, but they have some handy signposts warning them of the danger ("Maybe don't do atrocities, it's probably going to be bad"). The act utilitarian only has the abstract principle of utility which oughtto lead them in the right direction, you would think, but easily may not because it is to be considered in its purest (and vaguest) form. If only because humans are bad at math, I shouldn't want to live in a society in which everyone is an act utilitarian. Which means I shouldn't be one either because it is correct to guard against hubris.

I fail to see how all these pitfalls aren't magnified, rather than mitigated, by a rule approach.
Act utilitarians can find themselves justifying torture, for example, in certain specific cases, like to get information that will stop some plot to bomb lots of people. Rule utilitarians are more likely to notice that being able to do torture effectively enough that it would reliably give the desired result in such a case-- getting the information required to stop the bomb plot-- requires expertise. And that expertise requires practice. And that practice means living in a society which tortures people somewhat regularly. Which is probably not the best approach to maximizing happiness and so forth-- just a guess.

Now, an honest act utilitarian with perfect information and making no errors is unlikely to justify torture in the specific case in which it is not already normalized (but keep in mind that any of those three can be false). But if it is already normalized? Then the downside of continuing that normalization is less and the upside of employing it in the least objectionable cases can keep it normalized. Act utilitarianism tends to reinforce the status quo because the status quo is generally speaking stable. And moving away from that stability has costs; barriers to exit, in the economic jargon. No matter what that status quo is. An act utilitarian will not meaningfully oppose tyranny until that tyranny is already defeated.

Say you live in a village. The village is terrorized by a dragon. It periodically eats the villagers or burns a building. Individually, none of the villagers can solve the problem of the dragon-- adventurism is not effective. Collectively, they may be able to stop the dragon in some way. But they are disunited and afraid and the dragon seems to target the houses of those that are not as obsequious. At any given time, the villagers have a number of options on how to spend their time over and above doing what they need to survive. For example, they can try to cheer up the families of those who have lost someone to the dragon. They can work hard and produce food and have lots of sex in order to have babies to replace those lost to the dragon (this might otherwise be phrased as "they can be good livestock"). They can pretend that there is nothing to be done about the dragon except learning how best to cope with it. They could also try organizing themselves to solve the problem of the dragon-- this will not have any benefits to utility until the problem is actually solved; the dragon decisively dealt with in some manner. Such organizing is hard. It involves many steps and risks; getting enough people on board, figuring out what to do once they are. This takes time which could be spent doing anything else. And then there is the possibility of reprisal. The utility function for these villagers is going to have local maxima in which the effects of the dragon's violence are mitigated but the dragon itself remains unchallenged; attempting to make progress on solving the problem comes at the expense of utility and will only have benefits assuming a particular series of events follows in which others also make choices which move away from the local maxima of the utility function. So no proper act utilitarian calculation is going to tell the villagers to organize themselves to solve the problem of the dragon; they will instead be directed to the best way in the short term to suffer its periodic killing and destruction but never to stop it. The status quo is maintained.

But calculation is also prone to error. And power will justify itself using whatever tools are available. So you will see justifications of the kind, "yes, imperialism has some downsides but now India has railroads, so who can say really whether the British Empire was a good or bad thing?" Mill vacillated on his opinion of the colonial administration of India; but he was at least capable of thinking about it. Act utilitarians-- once it has started-- will take it as a given. Should it end? Well, gosh, that would be terribly disruptive. Rule utilitarians have a much easier time justifying human rights and avoiding (or at least recognizing) certain moral quandaries because in a funny way they have more time and reason to think about the finer details and grander possibilities. Or to put it another way, and quoting Mill in On Liberty they can "regard utility as the ultimate appeal on all ethical questions; but ... utility in the largest sense, grounded on the permanent interests of man as a progressive being" rather than a neat calculation for each individual case uninformed by the rest of them.

Rule utilitarians have the categorical imperative (and relevant modifications of it) in their toolkit. What would the world be like if everyone acted this way? What would the world be like if well-meaning people all acted in this way? Both of these questions are irrelevant to the act utilitarian. "What if we had a radically different economic system?" is not a question that should even occur to someone who is really an act utilitarian. Why dedicate any resources to pursuing that when you can donate all your money to Oxfam and volunteering at the soup kitchen? Do both? But that is bad to the extent that you're wasting time and other resources on revolutionary self-education and organizing which, let's face it, is probably not going to come to fruition any sooner or later (or at all) based on the actions of just you. But if everyone thinks that way, nothing will ever change-- at least, not in that direction.

The capacity to ignore the complexity or subtlety of an action is far greater.
Not really. Rule utilitarianism has a greater capacity to consider the impact of second order effects; it is not impossible for act utilitarians to consider these, but they always have the out of "but what if we just do it this once and never again?" Which is fraught with danger-- danger that, by definition, the act utilitarian has excluded from their analysis. What if everyone confronted with roughly this situation responded by doing X is a question that can have a much different answer than what if, in this situation, I do X. What is hard to measure in the individual case-- and thereby easy to disregard-- can be easier to conceive of in the aggregate.

A rule utilitarian approach tends to be informed by secondary principles that are well founded and uncontroversial; such as the benefits of honesty, fairness, etc., and tends to lack the audacity of an act utilitarian approach in which you are attempting to predict the future for every single action with an eye toward not just acceptable outcomes but optimal ones.
 

Seanchaidh

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Reading over this post, I think the main thrust of my argument is that you should be able to see what is wrong with act utilitarianism if you have a sociological imagination. What if everyone justified their decisions in such a way without the guardrails imposed by considerations of human rights nor the signposts from various traditional values such as honesty, fairness, and so forth (that we can yet evaluate and reevaluate if they look like they might cause harm in some cases or indeed in every case for some of the more controversial traditions)? Even if done perfectly, it can have bad results. And if done imperfectly, it can be horrible. So we can say that in the long term, act utilitarianism seems like it fails based on its own foundational principle. It is not the best way to pursue utility.



An act calculation might give rise to a reevaluation of a rule, but it has hardly 'taken precedence'. E.g. abortion: it is better to say that anyone should be able to have an abortion than to evaluate each abortion for its effect on utility and allow or disallow on that basis.

That is not to say that one should not consider the consequences of their actions, only that they needn't be reconsidering the morality of theft every time they visit a relative.



It is if you're operating from first principles every time and want to do it honestly and optimally. Act utilitarianism demands not just that you consider consequences but that you do the best thing as far as you can tell. Ironically, that perfectionism itself makes it more prone to serious error; there are situations that are rather uncontroversially acceptable. But what if, by sacrificing some principle or value or even person(s), you might do better than just acceptable? What if the "hard choice" is really the right thing to do? The rule utilitarian will tend to reject these unless given a very good reason not to do so, whereas the act utilitarian will be tempted-- especially if the 'sacrifice' is not something important to them but the benefit is. The result may be an atrocity.

That is not to say rule utilitarians are not capable of the same, but they have some handy signposts warning them of the danger ("Maybe don't do atrocities, it's probably going to be bad"). The act utilitarian only has the abstract principle of utility which oughtto lead them in the right direction, you would think, but easily may not because it is to be considered in its purest (and vaguest) form. If only because humans are bad at math, I shouldn't want to live in a society in which everyone is an act utilitarian. Which means I shouldn't be one either because it is correct to guard against hubris.



Act utilitarians can find themselves justifying torture, for example, in certain specific cases, like to get information that will stop some plot to bomb lots of people. Rule utilitarians are more likely to notice that being able to do torture effectively enough that it would reliably give the desired result in such a case-- getting the information required to stop the bomb plot-- requires expertise. And that expertise requires practice. And that practice means living in a society which tortures people somewhat regularly. Which is probably not the best approach to maximizing happiness and so forth-- just a guess.

Now, an honest act utilitarian with perfect information and making no errors is unlikely to justify torture in the specific case in which it is not already normalized (but keep in mind that any of those three can be false). But if it is already normalized? Then the downside of continuing that normalization is less and the upside of employing it in the least objectionable cases can keep it normalized. Act utilitarianism tends to reinforce the status quo because the status quo is generally speaking stable. And moving away from that stability has costs; barriers to exit, in the economic jargon. No matter what that status quo is. An act utilitarian will not meaningfully oppose tyranny until that tyranny is already defeated.

Say you live in a village. The village is terrorized by a dragon. It periodically eats the villagers or burns a building. Individually, none of the villagers can solve the problem of the dragon-- adventurism is not effective. Collectively, they may be able to stop the dragon in some way. But they are disunited and afraid and the dragon seems to target the houses of those that are not as obsequious. At any given time, the villagers have a number of options on how to spend their time over and above doing what they need to survive. For example, they can try to cheer up the families of those who have lost someone to the dragon. They can work hard and produce food and have lots of sex in order to have babies to replace those lost to the dragon (this might otherwise be phrased as "they can be good livestock"). They can pretend that there is nothing to be done about the dragon except learning how best to cope with it. They could also try organizing themselves to solve the problem of the dragon-- this will not have any benefits to utility until the problem is actually solved; the dragon decisively dealt with in some manner. Such organizing is hard. It involves many steps and risks; getting enough people on board, figuring out what to do once they are. This takes time which could be spent doing anything else. And then there is the possibility of reprisal. The utility function for these villagers is going to have local maxima in which the effects of the dragon's violence are mitigated but the dragon itself remains unchallenged; attempting to make progress on solving the problem comes at the expense of utility and will only have benefits assuming a particular series of events follows in which others also make choices which move away from the local maxima of the utility function. So no proper act utilitarian calculation is going to tell the villagers to organize themselves to solve the problem of the dragon; they will instead be directed to the best way in the short term to suffer its periodic killing and destruction but never to stop it. The status quo is maintained.

But calculation is also prone to error. And power will justify itself using whatever tools are available. So you will see justifications of the kind, "yes, imperialism has some downsides but now India has railroads, so who can say really whether the British Empire was a good or bad thing?" Mill vacillated on his opinion of the colonial administration of India; but he was at least capable of thinking about it. Act utilitarians-- once it has started-- will take it as a given. Should it end? Well, gosh, that would be terribly disruptive. Rule utilitarians have a much easier time justifying human rights and avoiding (or at least recognizing) certain moral quandaries because in a funny way they have more time and reason to think about the finer details and grander possibilities. Or to put it another way, and quoting Mill in On Liberty they can "regard utility as the ultimate appeal on all ethical questions; but ... utility in the largest sense, grounded on the permanent interests of man as a progressive being" rather than a neat calculation for each individual case uninformed by the rest of them.

Rule utilitarians have the categorical imperative (and relevant modifications of it) in their toolkit. What would the world be like if everyone acted this way? What would the world be like if well-meaning people all acted in this way? Both of these questions are irrelevant to the act utilitarian. "What if we had a radically different economic system?" is not a question that should even occur to someone who is really an act utilitarian. Why dedicate any resources to pursuing that when you can donate all your money to Oxfam and volunteering at the soup kitchen? Do both? But that is bad to the extent that you're wasting time and other resources on revolutionary self-education and organizing which, let's face it, is probably not going to come to fruition any sooner or later (or at all) based on the actions of just you. But if everyone thinks that way, nothing will ever change-- at least, not in that direction.



Not really. Rule utilitarianism has a greater capacity to consider the impact of second order effects; it is not impossible for act utilitarians to consider these, but they always have the out of "but what if we just do it this once and never again?" Which is fraught with danger-- danger that, by definition, the act utilitarian has excluded from their analysis. What if everyone confronted with roughly this situation responded by doing X is a question that can have a much different answer than what if, in this situation, I do X. What is hard to measure in the individual case-- and thereby easy to disregard-- can be easier to conceive of in the aggregate.

A rule utilitarian approach tends to be informed by secondary principles that are well founded and uncontroversial; such as the benefits of honesty, fairness, etc., and tends to lack the audacity of an act utilitarian approach in which you are attempting to predict the future for every single action with an eye toward not just acceptable outcomes but optimal ones.
Sir, this is a Wendy's. Do you want a burger or not?
 

gorfias

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I agree. Clinton said "It's the economy, stupid" and was proven right in his assessment when it came to the votes, but just looking at things from the lens of what makes economic sense leaves us with a one dimensional view that can harm us in the long run and the short run. An simple enough example would be: selling weapons to entities wishing to harm American people would make some money since you'd sell weapons but it would risk Americans being harmed.

So, do you think the tariffs Trump proposed are reasonable?
I confess, I don't know enough about the details. I trust Trump to have the right intentions. We'll see. ITMT, doing nothing seems a formula for destruction.
 

dreng3

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Aug 23, 2011
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I trust Trump to have the right intentions.
I honestly can't find the correct comment here, so feel free to select one of the following, unless you can come up with something better.

1. and I can't imageine the leopards eating my face.
2. because he's never lied before.
3. just like I always trust FOX News.
 
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