US 2024 Presidential Election

Silvanus

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ok.

I'm not saying this is the best way, but an obvious way is: communist revolution is good and anti-communist counter-revolution is bad. that's not an act calculation.
That's indeed not an act calculation. Its also forcing modern-day politics and morality into one, & would pervert moral philosophy altogether.

I'm not saying such a rule would be impossible to imagine. I'm saying that any rule that could be cooked up would be unworkable or intellectually bunk. That would be both.

it remains that the steps one would take to do either are a series of acts, not just one.
Indeed-- and any true act calculation will take those dependencies into account. Whilst a rule approach would need to be equally applicable regardless of the steps preceding or following each one.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Does it make that much sense? Seems to be reflective of media navel-gazing more than actual newsworthiness. Wins an election by default against a moribund Democratic Party and it seems like his administration will be a circus like last time and at least as much of a bonanza for the oligarchs as any other US presidency. Why not just have the incoming US president win every four years?
Flippantly, the owners of Time magazine might not want the Feds after them on some Trumped (hah) up charges. Taylor Swift got one and part of the group that got one before (and it's her birthday tomorrow, Fri the 13th, as an aside), which supposedly annoyed Trump.

But being a circus is noteworthy, I guess?
 
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Chimpzy

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Does it make that much sense? Seems to be reflective of media navel-gazing more than actual newsworthiness. Wins an election by default against a moribund Democratic Party and it seems like his administration will be a circus like last time and at least as much of a bonanza for the oligarchs as any other US presidency. Why not just have the incoming US president win every four years?
I suppose that's true. It is probably more apt to say the specter of Trump is person of the year
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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Well there goes Lina Khan, as predicted, replaced by pro-corporate tapeworm.


Hope nobody got too attached to workers' rights, environmental protection, non-toxic food and safe medication
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Well there goes Lina Khan, as predicted, replaced by pro-corporate tapeworm.


Hope nobody got too attached to workers' rights, environmental protection, non-toxic food and safe medication
Was too slow to edit this in, but is at least more constructive than my despair

 

tippy2k2

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Flippantly, the owners of Time magazine might not want the Feds after them on some Trumped (hah) up charges. Taylor Swift got one and part of the group that got one before (and it's her birthday tomorrow, Fri the 13th, as an aside), which supposedly annoyed Trump.

But being a circus is noteworthy, I guess?
It should have been Musk

Anyone who pays attention already knew but Musk ripped the mask off and proudly showed off just how much power "being rich" gives you in the political arena. From giving out millions of dollars for "signing a petition", being put "in charge of" DOGE, and now threatening any Republican who denied Trumps appointees with being primaried, he's demonstrated as blatantly as possible that being rich is the way to be politically powerful.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Well there goes Lina Khan, as predicted, replaced by pro-corporate tapeworm.


Hope nobody got too attached to workers' rights, environmental protection, non-toxic food and safe medication
To be fair, she was going to be out either way. Mark Cuban and the rest of the dem financers were asking for her head in order to support Harris and Harris was moving in the direction anyway.
 
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Trunkage

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A state is saying if they cover ozempic, they'd go bankrupt. So either ozempic costs way too much or the state can't negotiate.


It's usually not capitalism's fault for stuff going wrong in the US and yet people blame capitalism.

What are you even talking about? You said abortion was unique and the only procedure not protected by privacy and that's completely not true as I listed 2 NFL players that had to go to Europe for treatments because the US doesn't allow them. Also you keep claiming how many people needed to die for me to be in favor of lockdowns but you provided no proof that lockdowns saved lives.
I cant help it if you just pretend what I said
 

Asita

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Flippantly, the owners of Time magazine might not want the Feds after them on some Trumped (hah) up charges. Taylor Swift got one and part of the group that got one before (and it's her birthday tomorrow, Fri the 13th, as an aside), which supposedly annoyed Trump.

But being a circus is noteworthy, I guess?
It's really a lot simpler than that. For any given US election year, the president elect is almost invariably Time Magazine's Person of the Year.

To steal from Wikipedia for a bit more detail:

Since the list began, every serving president of the United States has been a Man or Person of the Year at least once, with the exceptions of Calvin Coolidge (in office at the time of the first issue), Herbert Hoover (the subsequent president), and Gerald Ford (the only president never to have been elected to the office of president or vice president). Most were named Man or Person of the Year either the year they were elected or while they were in office; the only one to be given the title before being elected was Dwight D. Eisenhower, in 1944, as Supreme Commander of the Allied Invasion Force, eight years before his first election. He received the title again in 1959 while in office. Franklin D. Roosevelt became the first chosen US president and is the only person to have received the title three times, first as president-elect (1932) and later as the incumbent president (1934 and 1941).
 
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Seanchaidh

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Its also forcing modern-day politics and morality into one, & would pervert moral philosophy altogether.
the moral justifications for communism and moral arguments against capitalism and even vassalage to the US empire in particular can be considered in moral philosophy. that's not a perversion at all. Treating all political aims as interchangeable is the perversion-- and to the extent that they can evaluate ideology at all, an act utilitarian cannot treat aims as interchangeable since an act utilitarian is committed to weighing the particulars. it matters what you want. it matters whether something is true. it matters what you are trying to defend or attack. Considering these things is just inconvenient if your university is getting funding from a predatory ruling class of some kind; then, moral philosophy is about being a neutral arbiter on the battlefield between right and wrong. Maybe wrong is in the right, we don't know! 🙈

Indeed-- and any true act calculation will take those dependencies into account. Whilst a rule approach would need to be equally applicable regardless of the steps preceding or following each one.
a rule approach isn't perfectionist, though. efforts to make progress toward justice, as a rule, can be good (or at least acceptable) even if they seem to reduce utility (in whatever way that is measured). as a rule, it is also a good idea to seriously consider the consequences of actions which entail risks-- it is not some kind of a contradiction for a rule to say that-- but the idea that morality turns on what happens as a consequence at the very least is not quite right. a peasant rebellion with just aims that ended up being crushed is not immoral for having been attempted.
 

Silvanus

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the moral justifications for communism and moral arguments against capitalism and even vassalage to the US empire in particular can be considered in moral philosophy. that's not a perversion at all. Treating all political aims as interchangeable is the perversion-- and to the extent that they can evaluate ideology at all, an act utilitarian cannot treat aims as interchangeable since an act utilitarian is committed to weighing the particulars. it matters what you want. it matters whether something is true. it matters what you are trying to defend or attack. Considering these things is just inconvenient if your university is getting funding from a predatory ruling class of some kind; then, moral philosophy is about being a neutral arbiter on the battlefield between right and wrong. Maybe wrong is in the right, we don't know! 🙈
Right, but there's no suggestion to treat them interchangeably. An act utilitarian would look at how each movement and political philosophy has impacted people and draw conclusions about what the response should be. Whereas a rule-- such as the one you drew up-- doesn't appeal to the impact or practices of the movement at all. There is no consideration there; just blind adherence to a broad descriptive term.

And so sure, we'd end up with a rule that allows overthrowing Batista but not Castro. But it would also disallow the people getting rid of Pol Pot.

a rule approach isn't perfectionist, though. efforts to make progress toward justice, as a rule, can be good (or at least acceptable) even if they seem to reduce utility (in whatever way that is measured). as a rule, it is also a good idea to seriously consider the consequences of actions which entail risks-- it is not some kind of a contradiction for a rule to say that-- but the idea that morality turns on what happens as a consequence at the very least is not quite right. a peasant rebellion with just aims that ended up being crushed is not immoral for having been attempted.
That appears to be a question of incomplete information. The decision to revolt-- which is what we're judging-- comes before success or failure are known to the decider. Therefore we can judge likelihood and risk, but not take definite outcome as a given in our calculation.

Had the peasant leader known for certain that the revolt would fail, and that nobody's lives would be improved by it, then it would indeed be immoral to launch it.
 

Agema

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Was too slow to edit this in, but is at least more constructive than my despair
Don't despair: the USA got what it voted for.

If it turns out the people don't like parts of it, maybe they might learn from the experience.
 

Chimpzy

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Good news keeps coming.
 
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bluegate

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Don't despair: the USA got what it voted for.

If it turns out the people don't like parts of it, maybe they might learn from the experience.
Yeah, but, you know, gotta stick with your Team when the voting comes around.

It's more important to vote for your team than to look objectively at reality and how your team affects it.
 

thebobmaster

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Yeah, but, you know, gotta stick with your Team when the voting comes around.

It's more important to vote for your team than to look objectively at reality and how your team affects it.
And unfortunately, this is a sport where both teams suck, it's just a matter of determining which team sucks less.
 
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Silvanus

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Don't despair: the USA got what it voted for.

If it turns out the people don't like parts of it, maybe they might learn from the experience.
I'm a great deal more worried about all the people internationally who had no say/didn't vote for him, but whose lives will still be enormously impacted by his decisions (for instance, on climate).
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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Brainworm rideshare driver RFK Jr.'s personal lawyer once petitioned the FDA to revoke its approval of the polio vaccine.


Are we going to grow the economy by resurrecting the iron lung industry?
 

Seanchaidh

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Right, but there's no suggestion to treat them interchangeably. An act utilitarian would look at how each movement and political philosophy has impacted people and draw conclusions about what the response should be. Whereas a rule-- such as the one you drew up-- doesn't appeal to the impact or practices of the movement at all. There is no consideration there; just blind adherence to a broad descriptive term.
Yes, you typically do your consideration before writing the rule rather than as it strikes the page.

And so sure, we'd end up with a rule that allows overthrowing Batista but not Castro. But it would also disallow the people getting rid of Pol Pot.
Would it?

That appears to be a question of incomplete information. The decision to revolt-- which is what we're judging-- comes before success or failure are known to the decider. Therefore we can judge likelihood and risk, but not take definite outcome as a given in our calculation.

Had the peasant leader known for certain that the revolt would fail, and that nobody's lives would be improved by it, then it would indeed be immoral to launch it.
Not necessarily.
 

tippy2k2

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Thanks O'Biden

Any serial killers you think you want to pardon before you're out? Maybe someone who eats puppies and adorable orphans?

Fuck it, go nuts Biden. I'm sure there are plenty of shitty people you can let off the hook before it's too late.
 
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