What are you currently playing?

Recommended Videos

NerfedFalcon

Level i Flare!
Mar 23, 2011
8,159
2,076
118
Gender
Male
It might be good for Silksong to have its own thread.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't intend to post that much about it, and if possible I don't want to read posts about it either until I finish my first playthrough. So I for one am not gonna be the guy who makes the dedicated Silksong thread and I don't think I'm going to read it much for a while either if somebody else does.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Old_Hunter_77

Elite Member
Dec 29, 2021
2,892
2,701
118
Country
United States
One of the fun things about playing video games as an adult is the feeling of being a kid. And part of being a kid is peer pressure.
And so I purchased Hollow Knight for my Switch.

I am still enjoying Persona 4 Golden but I hit a major boss wall. I was in a groove of using the excellent difficulty options in the game to balance challenge and progression- basically I would keep settings in normal for proper dungeon crawling and boss battles, adjusting the setting to make more money on victories so I wouldn't have to worry about buying health potions, and switching to very easy mode when farming for RNG-dependent quest item drops while listening to podcasts or whatever.

But there is this boss- for those who played the game, it is Shadow Mitsuo- that is just pure unadulterated bullshit. It makes this shield creature over and over while also having a large health pool while also being able to do successive attacks that wipe out characters. It's everything I hate about turn-based RPGs because it's extremely time consuming to try again and again and the sense of balance is way off because I was wiping out dungeons floors easily and then run into this wall so it's not like I can just blame my poor playing (I have been fusing personas, keeping balanced skills, upgrading, blah blah blah). So I dropped the difficulty to get past this one fight.
All this to say- I'm loving the story but the gameplay is obviously lacking. I dig the social link cut scene stuff but I need a game, man.

So I figure I'll try Hollow Knight again and switch (heh) between the two depending on if my mood is action frustration or fun interactive anime story.

I'm also gonna use a walkthrough this time. I made some decent progress last time so I feel I can skip some of the early backtracking and maybe this way find some shortcuts and early upgrades or something that will help me get past the hurdles I couldn't overcome last time. Since I do struggle with precision platforming I'll just take my time and stop playing when my fingers cramp up.

As I've said before, I do really like the look, vibe, and core gameplay of this game which is why I'm annoyed I never beat it.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
16,549
5,133
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
I'm a bit iffy on the diagonal downward attack though. It's a fine attack and all, but it being mapped to 'down' eventhough it isn't actually down, but still serves the same function as the downward attack in Hollow Knight where it is straight-up down is kinda fucking with me.
Yeah, the downward attack is kinda weird and its easy to misjudge it. I mean I imagine once I'm 10 hours in I'll have it solid, but the game expects you to platform with it surprisingly early.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
21,017
5,909
118
Yeah, the downward attack is kinda weird and its easy to misjudge it. I mean I imagine once I'm 10 hours in I'll have it solid, but the game expects you to platform with it surprisingly early.
Yeah, Hunter's Marsh can go fuck itself.

What really irks me is that there's no reason to change it other than for the sake of change. Like, why wouldn't Hornet be able to just do a regular downward attack? Fine, she can do a diagonal lunge, but what's stopping this character from jabbing that needle straight down? It's this annoying thing sequels can do, where you're doing pretty much the same thing as in the previous game, but now they made it more of a chore. What was previously second nature has now become an odd translation.

Overall the game is great and I love the sprint ability, but the way they fucked with the downward attack doesn't add any benefit or engagement. It's now this thing you need to be consciously aware of everytime you perform it.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
16,549
5,133
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Yeah, Hunter's Marsh can go fuck itself.

What really irks me is that there's no reason to change it other than for the sake of change. Like, why wouldn't Hornet be able to just do a regular downward attack? Fine, she can do a diagonal lunge, but what's stopping this character from jabbing that needle straight down? It's this annoying thing sequels can do, where you're doing pretty much the same thing as in the previous game, but now they made it more of a chore. What was previously second nature has now become an odd translation.

Overall the game is great and I love the sprint ability, but the way they fucked with the downward attack doesn't add any benefit or engagement. It's now this thing you need to be consciously aware of everytime you perform it.
Wasn't it part of her kit when she was a boss? I would expect it was another way to differentiate Hornet from the Hollow Knight.

I do love the sprint also.

Really not sure why they had put Hunters Marsh in there with so long between a bench. Pretty rough for that early on with the jumping... although, maybe that was the point, to get you used to the diagonal poke so when you messed up you really had to use it over and over again.
 

XsjadoBlaydette

~s•o√r∆rπy°`Inc hope GrIfts etUrnaL
May 26, 2022
1,503
1,774
118
Clear 'n Present Danger
Country
Must
Gender
Disappear
Skong is on the go alongside Chronos just ping-ponging like a flubber bong between two gongs it's where I belong King Kong ain't got shit on this wrong'n we dark-maxxing like goth Klingon Azathoth long lost monged under shadow cloth grave mothman craving cheap cost pathos

i got no new opinions

the only trick that sometimes helps with the downward stab bounce is trying to leave it till the target is as close as possible before doing. Isn't foolproof and am in need of much more practice but it's lowered the failure rate significantly for now
 

meiam

Elite Member
Dec 9, 2010
4,223
2,227
118
But there is this boss- for those who played the game, it is Shadow Mitsuo- that is just pure unadulterated bullshit. It makes this shield creature over and over while also having a large health pool while also being able to do successive attacks that wipe out characters. It's everything I hate about turn-based RPGs because it's extremely time consuming to try again and again and the sense of balance is way off because I was wiping out dungeons floors easily and then run into this wall so it's not like I can just blame my poor playing (I have been fusing personas, keeping balanced skills, upgrading, blah blah blah). So I dropped the difficulty to get past this one fight.
All this to say- I'm loving the story but the gameplay is obviously lacking. I dig the social link cut scene stuff but I need a game, man.
I feel like persona game never really got difficulty right (mostly because the basic combat system isn't that good and they pave over that problem by having the default difficulty setting be really low).

I'm at the start of metaphor at the moment, playing on hard, and if I initiate a fight (so that I have first turn advantage) I can easily get trough almost all fight without even taking a point of damage. But if the enemy imitate on me, they can easily wipe me (if they hit a character with their weakness, not only does the character take extra damage, but the enemy also gets an extra turn, so they can do even more damage).
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
21,017
5,909
118
So far Silksong seems quite keen on locking you in a room and spawning in enemies - Something that happend maybe once or twice in Hollow Knight.

Also, fuck those bird people.
 

Drathnoxis

I love the smell of card games in the morning
Legacy
Sep 23, 2010
6,521
2,470
118
Just off-screen
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
I feel like persona game never really got difficulty right (mostly because the basic combat system isn't that good and they pave over that problem by having the default difficulty setting be really low).

I'm at the start of metaphor at the moment, playing on hard, and if I initiate a fight (so that I have first turn advantage) I can easily get trough almost all fight without even taking a point of damage. But if the enemy imitate on me, they can easily wipe me (if they hit a character with their weakness, not only does the character take extra damage, but the enemy also gets an extra turn, so they can do even more damage).
I feel like difficulty in turn based rpgs is incredibly difficult to get right. The ideal situation is that during boss fights the player will have to use strategy both in tactics and use of their accumulated resources and just barely scrape by. However, due to the variability of player levels it's nearly impossible to meet the ideal for all players. If you are underleveled a fight becomes impossible, if overleveled a cakewalk. Even games that heavily restrict the players ability to grind their way through a problem have issues. Darkest Dungeon goes out of its way to be a very difficult RPG with high enemy damage and severe consequences for failure, but without levels the presence of RNG begins to be felt. When the enemies all target and kill one of your heroes in one turn giving you no chance to react it it doesn't so much feel difficult as completely out of your control.

I haven't ever played a difficult RPG where I feel like it's been done well. I don't think it's actually possible.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
16,549
5,133
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
I feel like difficulty in turn based rpgs is incredibly difficult to get right. The ideal situation is that during boss fights the player will have to use strategy both in tactics and use of their accumulated resources and just barely scrape by. However, due to the variability of player levels it's nearly impossible to meet the ideal for all players. If you are underleveled a fight becomes impossible, if overleveled a cakewalk. Even games that heavily restrict the players ability to grind their way through a problem have issues. Darkest Dungeon goes out of its way to be a very difficult RPG with high enemy damage and severe consequences for failure, but without levels the presence of RNG begins to be felt. When the enemies all target and kill one of your heroes in one turn giving you no chance to react it it doesn't so much feel difficult as completely out of your control.

I haven't ever played a difficult RPG where I feel like it's been done well. I don't think it's actually possible.
I wonder if leveling should be abandoned as a game mechanic. Like leveling and getting higher stats. I feel like it causes more issues with balance then anything else... except for the souls series, it manages it by having stats almost not matter.
 

Johnny Novgorod

Bebop Man
Legacy
Feb 9, 2012
20,119
4,807
118
My experience so far with Silksong is that it's Hollow Knight with changes running the spectrum of neat to gimmicky.

I'm enjoying it for the most part but here's 3 things that feel like have changed for the worse since HK:

+1 to "down attack should be down". In Silksong, down really means 45 degrees to the side. Enemies rarely accomodate this peculiarity, and platforming only exacerbates just how unintuitive this feels. There was some jank to HK's pogo but I swear the hitboxes on the things you're supposed to down-attack are on another level. Although, spoilers: you do eventually unlock a traditional downward attack.

The economy feels a bit off too. Now you're dealing with two currencies, shells and rosaries. All enemies drop shells but only a few drop rosaries as well. Shells function basically as fuel that replenishes your alt's ammo when you hit a bench, whereas rosaries are the legal tender at stores and tollbooths, buying everything from maps and charms to save spots and fast travel stations. And man, there's just never enough rosary beads. I have yet to lose a single bead to a corpse run and still there's never enough. Activating a bench costs money, banking your money costs money, sometimes the mere act of walking into a shop costs money. Some of these prices are exorbitant too. I've had to farm plenty. Now that I think about it, the bosses don't even drop anything upon defeat, in contrast to the coin bonanza that ended every duel in HK.

My last pet peeve would be that so many enemies do double damage. I think most bosses as well as quite a few regular enemies, which should be a World 8 gimmick, not a World 1 standard. See you start off with 5 HP, and even if you go through the lengthy motions of collecting 4 mask shards to get to 6 HP, that still makes you a 3 hit wonder in most boss battles and combat rooms (and there are a lot of combat rooms). As if to compensate, you heal 3 HP instead of HK's 1 HP, and faster, too. But in practice this means you're often waiting to tank a third hit in order to make the most out of a heal, and most of the time you'll be vulnerable to a single fuckup.

TL;DR: Cumbersome down attack, late-stage capitalism, you're made of papier mâché .

Oh and there's an annoying tendency in enemies to recoil just out of reach when you lunge at them, but chase after you as soon as you try make space. There's usually a trick to each individual enemy that's easy enough to apply 1 v 1 but all bets are off in combat rooms, and like I said, looks like the devs blew their money on them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Casual Shinji

meiam

Elite Member
Dec 9, 2010
4,223
2,227
118
I feel like difficulty in turn based rpgs is incredibly difficult to get right. The ideal situation is that during boss fights the player will have to use strategy both in tactics and use of their accumulated resources and just barely scrape by. However, due to the variability of player levels it's nearly impossible to meet the ideal for all players. If you are underleveled a fight becomes impossible, if overleveled a cakewalk. Even games that heavily restrict the players ability to grind their way through a problem have issues. Darkest Dungeon goes out of its way to be a very difficult RPG with high enemy damage and severe consequences for failure, but without levels the presence of RNG begins to be felt. When the enemies all target and kill one of your heroes in one turn giving you no chance to react it it doesn't so much feel difficult as completely out of your control.

I haven't ever played a difficult RPG where I feel like it's been done well. I don't think it's actually possible.
I guess it depend on how elastic you see the spectrum of turn base rpg, but stuff like slay the spire have pretty good difficulty, I guess its cause its short so they know pretty well what level player is and is build toward pushing toward high end player.

I think leveling sorta work as a soft "easy mode", if you cant get trough something just grind trough it. But that implies making the game assuming the player will do everything, which is great if you want to build a niche cult game, not so great if you like money.

Mostly, like I said, I just think persona/atlus game have pretty poor basic combat system, so they kinda shoot themselves in the foot right out the gate. Because its poor, there's no complexity, so you can't really make things difficult because there's nothing for player to succeed at (like, wow, use the element the enemy is weak too, so difficult, metaphor even has a button take you by the hand and point the ability you should use). You can avoid that by having an interesting system to build up your character between fight, so that your build become the real fight and the actual fight is more a sort of exhibition (which is kind what slay the spire does). Sadly the atlus JRPG don't really do that either.

Anyway the only turn base RPG I can think, on top of my head, that had pretty good combat system, but without a good character building system, is halcyon 6, which used status effect interestingly (almost all attack do status effect, but plenty of attack consume them, so you have to balance letting them run on the enemy and consuming them). Otherwise there mostly action rpg, like tale of grace (whose gameplay is so good, it had to be cursed with one of the worse story and then sealed to never be used again).
 

Drathnoxis

I love the smell of card games in the morning
Legacy
Sep 23, 2010
6,521
2,470
118
Just off-screen
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
I wonder if leveling should be abandoned as a game mechanic. Like leveling and getting higher stats. I feel like it causes more issues with balance then anything else... except for the souls series, it manages it by having stats almost not matter.
Yes. In most cases I would agree, especially anything with action combat pretenses.
I guess it depend on how elastic you see the spectrum of turn base rpg, but stuff like slay the spire have pretty good difficulty, I guess its cause its short so they know pretty well what level player is and is build toward pushing toward high end player.

I think leveling sorta work as a soft "easy mode", if you cant get trough something just grind trough it. But that implies making the game assuming the player will do everything, which is great if you want to build a niche cult game, not so great if you like money.

Mostly, like I said, I just think persona/atlus game have pretty poor basic combat system, so they kinda shoot themselves in the foot right out the gate. Because its poor, there's no complexity, so you can't really make things difficult because there's nothing for player to succeed at (like, wow, use the element the enemy is weak too, so difficult, metaphor even has a button take you by the hand and point the ability you should use). You can avoid that by having an interesting system to build up your character between fight, so that your build become the real fight and the actual fight is more a sort of exhibition (which is kind what slay the spire does). Sadly the atlus JRPG don't really do that either.

Anyway the only turn base RPG I can think, on top of my head, that had pretty good combat system, but without a good character building system, is halcyon 6, which used status effect interestingly (almost all attack do status effect, but plenty of attack consume them, so you have to balance letting them run on the enemy and consuming them). Otherwise there mostly action rpg, like tale of grace (whose gameplay is so good, it had to be cursed with one of the worse story and then sealed to never be used again).
I would definitely not consider Slay the Spire an RPG, nor any deck builder like it. For one I'm pretty sure you don't level up at all and just collect trinkets and cards.

I tried Halcyon 6 but dropped it pretty quick for reasons I no longer remember. I think it had the same developers as Star Renegades which I also hated for reasons lost to time.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
21,017
5,909
118
+1 to "down attack should be down". In Silksong, down really means 45 degrees to the side. Enemies rarely accomodate this peculiarity, and platforming only exacerbates just how unintuitive this feels. There was some jank to HK's pogo but I swear the hitboxes on the things you're supposed to down-attack are on another level. Although, spoilers: you do eventually unlock a traditional downward attack.
When I got that option though I still stuck with the default. I'm very hesitant to switch up attack styles, and I've kind of gotten used to it now that going for the traditional way might fuck me up in the heat of combat or platforming. Also, while the down attack is used a lot during combat (enemies/bosses are faster and receive less knock-back, so you kinda have to), for platforming it seems relgated (so far) to Hunter's March. The game doesn't have the pogo platforming scattered more generally like in Hollow Knight. The glide also helped to smooth things over, eventhough I can't help but feel Hornet looks stupid while doing it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johnny Novgorod

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
21,017
5,909
118
To stick with some more Silksong complaints (honestly, the game is really good): The game takes itself a lot more serious now. Hollow Knight obviously put a lot of effort into the legitimacy of its weird insect world, but it still embraced the cartoony visuals to have some fun with its characters. Cornifer was this oddball who had a trophy wife who was bored out of her mind being stuck minding the store. There was Zote, the grub daddy, Dung Defender, and the shy fan girl. Even your own character was kinda goofy in that they looked like this generic, unassuming little dude who was kicking all kinds of ass. Hornet looking, acting, and fighting cool in that game felt like it was meant to contrast against your own character. While I never looked into the lore of the game or dug into the story much, I always got the impression that Hornet felt slighted for not being the main character despite having all the characteristics of one.

And maybe that's why the game is now way more serious, because now that she is the main character I'm noticing a lot less charm and humor. There's jovial characters, sure, but nobody has a sense of fun or silliness to them (other than maybe that rival coded character). Instead of Cornifer sticking out like a sore thumb and ignoring the obvious danger around him, we have a stoic warroir woman who's cool and collected and spouts off lone wolf platitudes. And while I appreciate that Hornet actually talks, because making her mute would've been weird since we've already seen her talk in HK, I can't say anything she's said thus far has added to her character at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johnny Novgorod

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
21,017
5,909
118
One thing Silksong definitely does better than Hollow Knight is it really manages to invigorate you for a retry (after death) because of the sprint ability. Not only does it have the obvious benefit of getting you back to where you were faster, the sprint really taps into the anger you're probably feeling. It does for me anyway - The first thing I do when I get killed is jam that sprint button before I even leave the bench, and curse under my breath that they'll fucking pay.

Right now I'm on the Widow boss, and it's a nice hard fight. It's reminiscent of the Mantis Lords, where it's a relatively simple fight, but you really need to be on the ball. It also doesn't have the minion spawn gimmick that a bunch of other boss fights in this game have.
 

Old_Hunter_77

Elite Member
Dec 29, 2021
2,892
2,701
118
Country
United States
I wonder if leveling should be abandoned as a game mechanic. Like leveling and getting higher stats. I feel like it causes more issues with balance then anything else... except for the souls series, it manages it by having stats almost not matter.
Even though I don't play as many RPGs as some of you guys, I have felt this way for a while. I do feel like despite all the advances in gaming we're still beholden to stuff from when I was a kid in many ways.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Drathnoxis

Johnny Novgorod

Bebop Man
Legacy
Feb 9, 2012
20,119
4,807
118
One thing Silksong definitely does better than Hollow Knight is it really manages to invigorate you for a retry (after death) because of the sprint ability. Not only does it have the obvious benefit of getting you back to where you were faster, the sprint really taps into the anger you're probably feeling. It does for me anyway - The first thing I do when I get killed is jam that sprint button before I even leave the bench, and curse under my breath that they'll fucking pay.

Right now I'm on the Widow boss, and it's a nice hard fight. It's reminiscent of the Mantis Lords, where it's a relatively simple fight, but you really need to be on the ball. It also doesn't have the minion spawn gimmick that a bunch of other boss fights in this game have.
The runback to that boss room has been one of the most satisfying ones so far.

I think I finally have a grip on the down attack thing, and more or less breaking even on every capitalist undertaking, but the two damage thing is still annoying. Even contact damage eats two health!

Boss fights feel very much like a tug of war. You take a lot of damage very quickly, but can heal 60% of your health bar in one swoop, so there's definitely a sense of constantly being on the edge. Things can turn around and go south fast, but you can always recover if you're smart about it.

Unrelated but I think I missed out on a boss, Moorwing, by going ahead and completing the first Flea request, which moves the caravan to the boss's arena and they're nowhere to be seen. Bummer.
 

laggyteabag

Scrolling through forums, instead of playing games
Legacy
Oct 25, 2009
3,448
1,184
118
UK
Gender
He/Him
I care not for Silksong, so I have dabbled in some Dawn of War: Dark Crusade, and the change in campaign mechanics make this less of a story mode, and more of a different way to play.

The Dawn of War campaigns thus far have been a linear series of missions, with a set objective to complete. Dark Crusade and Soulstorm instead opt for a campaign map, where you pick your faction, and then you and the other factions are dropped onto the map, and you must fight for territory. Other than the base fights, fights over territory are basically just the skirmish mode - with the twist of your hero character growing more powerful as the game goes on, and interestingally, each map remembering your base layout from any previous fights on that map.

That said, im not really feeling like playing a few dozen skirmish matches in a row to finish this, at the moment.

Onto somethinge else!
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan