Charlie Kirk Assassinated

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Agema

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In as much as you refuse to see it, I can only insist that I am right and you are assuming falsehoods.
I do not need to see it, because of what the Daily Wire is and does. The Daily Wire exists to advance conservative politics, not to explore reality. It is thus incapable of allowing non-conservative ideas free and fair space, because that fundamentally undermines the company's purpose.

It's like asking Catholic and Protestant priests to have a debate on the nature of God. No matter what they may debate about the nature of God, they're only ever going to agree God exists.
 

tstorm823

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The Daily Wire exists to advance conservative politics, not to explore reality. It is thus incapable of allowing non-conservative ideas free and fair space, because that fundamentally undermines the company's purpose.
Your career is not to explore reality, yet you manage to have opinions on things. You might find theirs interesting.
 

Agema

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Your career is not to explore reality, yet you manage to have opinions on things. You might find theirs interesting.
Er, actually, my career has absolutely been about exploring reality. Less so more recently, but it's still a part.

If I want to know right-wing ideas, I've got much smarter and more interesting people to read than the glossy, airbrushed, social media dross piled out for the mass market by the usual talking heads. That stuff has a certain use because it gives us some insight into the ideas that drive public opinion (which is an aspect of reality), but doesn't help us understand important underlying realities of how the world works.

To give an example, take climate change. There are all manner of important and useful things we could consider on climate change. Unfortunately you won't find significant engagement with them by listening to these elements of the US right, because a lot of those potential realities are politically incorrect and thus functionally verboten.
 

tstorm823

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Er, actually, my career has absolutely been about exploring reality. Less so more recently, but it's still a part.

If I want to know right-wing ideas, I've got much smarter and more interesting people to read than the glossy, airbrushed, social media dross piled out for the mass market by the usual talking heads. That stuff has a certain use because it gives us some insight into the ideas that drive public opinion (which is an aspect of reality), but doesn't help us understand important underlying realities of how the world works.

To give an example, take climate change. There are all manner of important and useful things we could consider on climate change. Unfortunately you won't find significant engagement with them by listening to these elements of the US right, because a lot of those potential realities are politically incorrect and thus functionally verboten.
Oh, your job title is "reality explorer"? Neat!

I will say, I am much smarter and more interesting, so that part might be true, but you genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. Like, in the most basic sense, you completely refuse to engage with certain content, how could you possibly know anything about it? I did not recommend something that is airbrushed for social media. It makes sense that you don't know that, you've refused to see it.

It's not as though I'm recommending it forever, expecting you to become a fan. It's mostly US politics and culture, it shouldn't really be worth your time regardless of angle. It's just an example of people seeking greater understanding talking to each other from a place you take for granted is incapable of such a thing.
 

Bedinsis

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I will say, I am much smarter and more interesting, so that part might be true, but you genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. Like, in the most basic sense, you completely refuse to engage with certain content, how could you possibly know anything about it? I did not recommend something that is airbrushed for social media. It makes sense that you don't know that, you've refused to see it.
Let's put it this way:

Why do you refuse to watch LegalEagle?
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Let's put it this way:

Why do you refuse to watch LegalEagle?
Legal Eagle is a bad channel if you actually want legit legal analysis. You can go back and look at their takes on past cases and see how wrong they were. Even something I knew was unconstitutional 5 seconds after hearing it, Legal Eagle said it would hold up and then the Supreme Court ruled 9-0 of "get that shit out of here". They even made a video explaining that they aren't bias by saying that they were bias. The channel was fun when it was going over how many laws were broken in movies like Christmas Vacation and how much money would be paid out. Even then, I was like I don't think that's how this or that works but it's not some serious legal analysis.
 

tstorm823

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Let's put it this way:

Why do you refuse to watch LegalEagle?
I have watched hours of LegalEagle. If you told me he stopped just shilling for Democrats, I'd give him another shot.

That is very different from refusing to watch any to begin with.
 

Agema

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Oh, your job title is "reality explorer"? Neat!
As a scientist, there's got to be a fair chance I've done more to discover how the universe works than you have.

I will say, I am much smarter and more interesting
I mean, you're above averagely intelligent and informed, but you really are not all that. In particular, I don't think you quite get how boringly orthodox, right wing you appear to be. I just don't think people really smart and interesting do nothing but pound stiflingly ordinary tropes. And then there's the fact that you resolutely fail to run rings around anyone here (except maybe in your own mind). And none of us are geniuses as far as I can tell.

Like, in the most basic sense, you completely refuse to engage with certain content
Yeah, but I'm not doing that blind. I have actually seen Shapiro, Kirk, and most of these guys in action, and I'm happy I've seen enough.

They are mostly McDonalds level political and ideological thought. There really is a whole world of exciting stuff from people who really know their shit out there in various blogs and websites - profound, challenging, novel, independent. Why chow down on McDonalds every day when there's so much Michelin-starred food for thought out there?
 

tstorm823

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In particular, I don't think you quite get how boringly orthodox, right wing you appear to be. I just don't think people really smart and interesting do nothing but pound stiflingly ordinary tropes.
It is the inevitability of culture that the truest and realest things become ordinary tropes. The avant-garde may find new things of value occasionally, but it is surrounded by ten-fold untruths and failures. And that's fine, that has value, but it's important to understand that if someone is interesting and fresh all of the time, they are nearly always going to be wrong.
And then there's the fact that you resolutely fail to run rings around anyone here (except maybe in your own mind).
I mean, I sometimes do that by accident. Just winning the argument does nothing to convince any of you of anything, and that is a far more compelling challenge. I very well could rip about everything you guys say to shreds, but then we'd only ever be talking about what you think, and I can't convince you of my positions without discussing them.
Yeah, but I'm not doing that blind. I have actually seen Shapiro, Kirk, and most of these guys in action, and I'm happy I've seen enough.

They are mostly McDonalds level political and ideological thought. There really is a whole world of exciting stuff from people who really know their shit out there in various blogs and websites - profound, challenging, novel, independent. Why chow down on McDonalds every day when there's so much Michelin-starred food for thought out there?
The thing is, the person serving burgers at McDonalds might also be good at cooking, but you'd never experience that talent only eating at McDonalds. I can all but guarantee that the Kirk, Shapiro, etc that you've seen has been interactions with either random college students or dull tv hosts. They are venues where those people are basically obligated to cater to the most basic lines of thought. I recommended a program that is not that, where they are talking to people who already know all those basic things 1000x over, where they dig a lot deeper, and regularly joke that when they talk they are renegotiating the Peace of Westphalia.
 

BrawlMan

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Why do you refuse to watch LegalEagle?
Because LE actually deals in facts, logic, and actual truths. tstorm doesn't and uses the usual whataboutism with armchair science.

Good.

The facist bitches doing facist and illegal thing for biatch they never cared about in the first place, and using his death for their petty "agenda".



Also great news.

BIG RAPIDS, Mich. (WOOD) — Ferris State University has rejected a county commission proposal to erect a statue of conservative influencer Charlie Kirk.


County documents from Sept. 18 show the Mecosta County Board of Commissioners voted 5-1 to submit a letter discussing the potential project to FSU President Bill Pink.


‘One of a kind:’ West Michigan remembers Charlie Kirk

The letter, written by Commissioner Chris Zimmerman and provided to News 8 by university officials, said Kirk should be commemorated because he “influenced millions of people across our great nation.”


“He had a real knack for engaging young people in civilized discussions on various topics that influenced public policy. As horrific as his assassination may be, we should not quickly forget his legacy,” the letter stated.




The preliminary proposal suggested the university’s art department could come up with a design and determine a place on campus to house the monument. The county proposed splitting the total costs of the project with the university and noted it could be a way to boost donations from alumni.


“I suspect the board will overwhelmingly approve of splitting the cost of this important undertaking with Ferris. You may find that this concept will be a financially advantageous situation with members of your alumni association,” the letter stated.

Charlie Kirk at an event at GR.Church in 2020. (Courtesy Cody Kuehl)

Pink responded with a letter eight days later declining the proposal.


“While we condemn all acts of violence and extend our sympathies regarding Mr. Kirk’s tragic death, the University follows a longstanding practice that limits statues on campus to individuals who have made significant, direct contributions to Ferris State University itself,” Pink stated.


Turning Point, moving forward without Charlie Kirk, makes first return to Utah since his killing

The letter also noted that the campus currently only has one statue — that of the university’s founder, Woodbridge N. Ferris.


Dave Murray, FSU’s associate vice president for marketing and communications, told News 8 that university officials do not have any record of Kirk ever formally visiting Ferris State’s campus.

“We appreciated the communication from the Mecosta County Commission. The commission’s offer was thoughtfully considered, and President Pink provided members with a written response,” Murray said.


Kirk was shot and killed Sept. 10 while addressing a crowd at Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah. His death prompted a huge outpouring from conservative communities, including vigils across West Michigan. A memorial service was held Sept. 21 at State Farm Stadium in Glendale, Arizona, and attended by President Donald Trump and Vice President JD Vance.
 

Silvanus

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I mean, I sometimes do that by accident. Just winning the argument does nothing to convince any of you of anything, and that is a far more compelling challenge. I very well could rip about everything you guys say to shreds [...]
If your contribution has had no persuasive impact, and is held in no high regard outside your own head, in what sense have you won?
 

Agema

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It is the inevitability of culture that the truest and realest things become ordinary tropes.
Unfortunately reality isn't static. Circumstances, ideas, technologies move on and people who think they are holding onto the truth and reality are actually holding onto outdated dogma.

I very well could rip about everything you guys say to shreds
Sure sure. You could have been a contender.

The thing is, the person serving burgers at McDonalds might also be good at cooking, but you'd never experience that talent only eating at McDonalds. I can all but guarantee that the Kirk, Shapiro, etc that you've seen has been interactions with either random college students or dull tv hosts. They are venues where those people are basically obligated to cater to the most basic lines of thought. I recommended a program that is not that, where they are talking to people who already know all those basic things 1000x over, where they dig a lot deeper, and regularly joke that when they talk they are renegotiating the Peace of Westphalia.
😂 What a bunch of pompous, self-regarding asses they must be.

At best, they are renegotiating a Peace of Westphalia without either the Catholics or Protestants taking part. It's so much easier when you don't have any real opponents to disagree with you.
 
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tstorm823

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Unfortunately reality isn't static. Circumstances, ideas, technologies move on and people who think they are holding onto the truth and reality are actually holding onto outdated dogma.
On the contrary: people who think truth gets outdated end up latching onto complete absurdity.
At best, they are renegotiating a Peace of Westphalia without either the Catholics or Protestants taking part. It's so much easier when you don't have any real opponents to disagree with you.
The group is two Catholics, two Protestants and one Shapiro.
 

tstorm823

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If your contribution has had no persuasive impact, and is held in no high regard outside your own head, in what sense have you won?
If it is a competition between us and your position is entirely dismantled and thrown in the garbage, even a low regarded position wins by still standing. In a debate, success is relative. Persuasion is more difficult (and worthwhile) than tearing a person down. I do not give you the Seanchaidh treatment, if much rather persuade you.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Because LE actually deals in facts, logic, and actual truths. tstorm doesn't and uses the usual whataboutism with armchair science.
LMAO, because this video is SOOOOOOOOO factual, logical and truthful.....

I knew 5 seconds after hearing that Colorado removed Trump from the ballot that it was unconstitutional (pretty simple legal case) and the Supreme Court ruled 9-0 that it was unconstitutional. You don't care about actual facts because politics is a religion to you. You can just go back and look at all the things he's been wrong on, it's all right there on his channel.

 

Silvanus

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If it is a competition between us and your position is entirely dismantled and thrown in the garbage, even a low regarded position wins by still standing.
What kind of "competition" are you even imagining, here? This is an online discussion; it doesn't have points, scoreboards, judges or rules by which to measure this "winning".

And so you may consider one position "dismantled and thrown in the garbage", and another "still standing". But that's all that is if nobody is persuaded. Your consideration. It means nothing to anyone else; it doesn't actually exist.

In a debate, success is relative. Persuasion is more difficult (and worthwhile) than tearing a person down. I do not give you the Seanchaidh treatment, if much rather persuade you.
Yes, and debate (or discussion, of varying quality) is the only thing it's even possible for any of us here to engage in. Nobody has ever "won" anything objective and it would be meaningless to try.
 
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tstorm823

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Yes, and debate (or discussion, of varying quality) is the only thing it's even possible for any of us here to engage in. Nobody has ever "won" anything objective and it would be meaningless to try.
You underestimate how many times you have voluntarily faceplanted.
 

Agema

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On the contrary: people who think truth gets outdated end up latching onto complete absurdity.
So, you think because it was true that Theodore Roosevelt was the current president in 1905, it is an absurdity for us to believe he is not the current president?

The group is two Catholics, two Protestants and one Shapiro.
🤦‍♂️
I find it fascinating that you think you can drub everyone here in debate and yet not understand the analogy just posed to you.
 
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Bedinsis

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LMAO, because this video is SOOOOOOOOO factual, logical and truthful.....

I knew 5 seconds after hearing that Colorado removed Trump from the ballot that it was unconstitutional (pretty simple legal case) and the Supreme Court ruled 9-0 that it was unconstitutional. You don't care about actual facts because politics is a religion to you. You can just go back and look at all the things he's been wrong on, it's all right there on his channel.
I watched that video. It was incredibly boring. And factual. He spent the first half presenting "Here is how those removing Trump argue." while keeping personal comments to a minimum. It was only at 15:30 he presented how the Supreme Court is likely to handle this case, where he said that "most commentators are assuming that the Supreme Court will overturn the rulings". He then went on to say that the reasoning they use is the interesting bit, while as before keeping personal comments at a minimum.

So if that video was meant to showcase his alleged incompetence it is doing a poor job; his reasoning was factual, logical and truthful, and he did present what was the likeliest outcome and from where he got it correctly and truthfully. And the outcome he presented was the one you also had presented.

So what was he wrong about in that video? There's a difference between presenting "Here's what I think." and "Here's what other people think.".
 
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