US 2024 Presidential Election

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Agema

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When you do something in specifically in the sight of people as a "challenge", yes, that is shoving it down their throats.
Dude, we get it: you find homosexuality disgusting and you've build a load of rationalisations so you can pretend there's something more than it makes you feel icky.
 

tstorm823

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Rosa Parks was shoving her denied civil rights down our throats by that logic.
Yes, and?
Dude, we get it: you find homosexuality disgusting and you've build a load of rationalisations so you can pretend there's something more than it makes you feel icky.
Dude, I get it: you're ashamed to admit you agree with my arguments, so you're going to invent a strawman to hate instead.
 

Silvanus

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No it isn't. It's situationally normal and acceptable, and also situationally frowned upon or even potentially illegal. If a bunch of straight people held a march specifically to make the police watch them make out, that's not a normal thing, people would generally not support it.
"Potentially illegal" for straight people to kiss in public! 😂

Ok, its clear enough from this flailing response that the notion of early Pride being full of bondage and explicit sexual stuff has fallen apart.

What's left of your original position? Just that personal interpretation of the word 'pride', which is at odds even with dictionary definitions from the time, and nobody else shares?
 
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tstorm823

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There it is, your classic fallback every time you lose an argument: "You actually agree with me, so I win."
If a person has to construct a fake opponent to disagree with, the logical conclusion is that they are incapable of disagreeing with the real argument.
"Potentially illegal" for straight people to kiss in public! 😂
Yes, there are public indecency laws in the world. "We're going to hold a parade so that everyone has to see us making out" is not a normal or accepted thing. There are rare occasions where things like that happen, circling back to Mardi Gras, but you are delusional to imagine that as an average, everyday thing.

To Seanchaidh's accidental point, Rosa Parks was doing an average, everyday thing. That sitting on a bus was picking a fight is indication of the societal issue. You want to frame Pride in the same way, but it just isn't at all comparable.
which is at odds even with dictionary definitions from the time, and nobody else shares?
It isn't at odds with the dictionary definition you posted.
" pleasure or satisfaction in one’s actions or qualities or possessions " is describing self-importance.
" a proper sense of what is fitting for one’s position or character " is describing self-importance.
" unduly high opinion of one’s own qualities or merits " is describing self-importance.

It is kind of amazing to me that you can read those things and think "that's just comfort in one's identity", when it's talking about pleasure derived from owning things or doing things, or acting in a way deemed fitting for a social position (like royalty), or just explicitly saying having an unduly high opinion of oneself. It wasn't worth engaging with this when you were saying it supported your understanding, there is vagueness enough in words that I'm sure you've found a way to believe that. But to say it's at odds with what I'm saying? No, absolutely not, you demonstrated through your own research that the meaning of pride at the time was absolutely about self-importance in multiple ways. The closest you get to your idea is if you horseblind it down to "...satisfaction in one's... qualities...", but even that is more like someone admiring themself in a mirror because they think they are very good looking than it is a gay person not being overly self-conscious or worried about the judgment of others.
 

tippy2k2

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Dude, we get it: you find homosexuality disgusting and you've build a load of rationalisations so you can pretend there's something more than it makes you feel icky.
I do not understand why you all bother arguing LGBT anything with T "Trans people are just mentally ill" Storm

You're never going to out argue someone who's just a bigot towards gay and transgender people because there's no argument that can "defeat " someone who just hates a group of people for existing
 

Xprimentyl

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It isn't at odds with the dictionary definition you posted.
" pleasure or satisfaction in one’s actions or qualities or possessions " is describing self-importance.
" a proper sense of what is fitting for one’s position or character " is describing self-importance.
" unduly high opinion of one’s own qualities or merits " is describing self-importance.
You realize that where you've chosen to equate "self-importance," most reasonably people would insert "self-WORTH," which is where the majority of people land in the modern use of "pride." If you think groups like "the Proud Boys" are more representative of the generally accepted intent of the word, well, you're just intentionally choosing to opt for the most damning misrepresentation for the sake of your flimsy assertion, or you're just wrong. Take your pick; either way your credibility is non-existent.
 

Agema

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I do not understand why you all bother arguing LGBT anything with T "Trans people are just mentally ill" Storm
Sometimes when someone is trying to evade saying what they really think, you should just prod them until they reveal more of themselves.

He was already giving away where he was coming from when he was talking about "indulgence" a week or two back. He's never going to admit he just finds homosexuality disgusting, but you can strip back the superficial illogic until that source is more obvious.
 

tstorm823

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You realize that where you've chosen to equate "self-importance," most reasonably people would insert "self-WORTH," which is where the majority of people land in the modern use of "pride."
None of those definitions above are self-worth. I wouldn't dispute that is how many if not most view Pride now, as in the movement. I'm saying that pride, the actual word, is the wrong word for that, and was inherited from people sending a very different message.
Sometimes when someone is trying to evade saying what they really think...
You think I come here to evade saying what I think?
 

Agema

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You think I come here to evade saying what I think?
Nobody says what they really, really think. And thank god, because if civilisation is anything, it's dealing peacefully with people you hate.
 
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Bedinsis

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Nobody says what they really, really think. And thank god, because if civilisation is anything, it's dealing peacefully with people you hate.
I wouldn't describe "hatred" as being one of the most prominent emotions I have towards other people.
 
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Xprimentyl

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None of those definitions above are self-worth. I wouldn't dispute that is how many if not most view Pride now, as in the movement. I'm saying that pride, the actual word, is the wrong word for that, and was inherited from people sending a very different message.
It isn't at odds with the dictionary definition you posted.
" pleasure or satisfaction in one’s actions or qualities or possessions " is describing self-importance.
" a proper sense of what is fitting for one’s position or character " is describing self-importance.
" unduly high opinion of one’s own qualities or merits " is describing self-importance.
[/QUOTE]

Literally all of those definitions describe self-worth as they all lack a direct comparison to anyone outside of the subject; none of them infer "better than anyone." The only one I'll give some leeway is your clearly hand-selected third definition that adds the "unduly" qualifier which is very specific in its intent to cast "pride" in a negative light which is also not what most people mean when they use "pride" as a term to say they are not shamed by who they are, collectively or individually.

Can a parent be proud of their child for earning third place in a competition? Yes. Does that mean they feel their child is the "best" out of all children? No.

Can I be proud of a meal I make that doesn't make my dinner guests sick and that they generally enjoyed? Yes. Am I better than Wolfgang Puck? No.

Pride is not, in and of itself, a negative as defined by certain doctrines that use the term loosely to encompass people for whom "self" is more important than anyone else. A "hot" bath and an eternity in the "hot" flames of hell are different to even the most strict religious believers when using the word "hot," I'm sure, unless you want to find yourself in the business of specifically defining every word ever spoken by every person in the most negative way it can be interpreted to "prove" an imagined point of argument?
 
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Seanchaidh

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Yes, and?
So you're defining "shoving down our throats" by the reaction rather than the act itself. On the basis of my dislike for whatever someone might be doing, that someone is therefore "shoving [whatever it is] down my throat". Even in the case of taking a seat and remaining seated; the only reason this is of any significance is that the reaction is entirely unreasonable.
 

Thaluikhain

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The other way of doing it would be to quote, say, this:

So let's see your evidence of explicit bondage gear etc having a dominant role at 1970 NY Pride or '72 London Pride. Back when it was a few hundred people surrounded by police.
Over and over until they addressed it.
 

tstorm823

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Nobody says what they really, really think. And thank god, because if civilisation is anything, it's dealing peacefully with people you hate.
I don't hate anyone. I joke hate Lyndon Johnson, but that's about it.
Literally all of those definitions describe self-worth as they all lack a direct comparison to anyone outside of the subject; none of them infer "better than anyone."
Worth is an inherently relative term, an objects worth describes it relative to other things, most directly to money. This is especially true if you intend to have celebrations of specifically the characteristics that are different than others.
The only one I'll give some leeway is your clearly hand-selected third definition
Those came from Silvanus, allegedly from 1980. I picked nothing.
Can a parent be proud of their child for earning third place in a competition? Yes. Does that mean they feel their child is the "best" out of all children? No.
No, it means they see their child as the most important. And they probably do.

I don't have the exact quote or even remember who said it (strong between is CS Lewis or GK Chesterton), but there is a line about humility that is something like "a humble person can build the greatest cathedral to God, and feel no greater or lesser joy than if someone else did." Your pride in your cooking isn't that you are better than the best professionals, it's that you see your cooking as more important. Pride doesn't care if you're objectively better or worse, it tells you that you are the most important either way. It is not enough to simply feel joy at the good thing that you made, your ego must be fed. If you're just happy to have fed people and you feel no bigger, you aren't describing pride at all.
Even in the case of taking a seat and remaining seated;
If you are unaware, Rosa Parks was an activist before she was arrested, and remained seated fully aware and intentional in the message being sent. This is not criticism.
Over and over until they addressed it.
A) it was already addressed.
B) it was demanding I evidence a very specific claim that I didn't make.
 

Agema

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I wouldn't describe "hatred" as being one of the most prominent emotions I have towards other people.
That's good to hear. But I think you may have taken my last comment much more seriously than I wrote it.
 

Xprimentyl

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Those came from Silvanus, allegedly from 1980. I picked nothing
My point is that YOU alone prescribed the "self-importance" when, in the context you're trying to pass it off in, it's not reflective of the general idea of "pride" as it is used by most other reasonable people.

No, it means they see their child as the most important. And they probably do.
No, it doesn't mean that at all. Surely even you can see the lengths to which you're reaching to make your flawed point. Of course an individual's child is the most important to them, but to think pride in their child's mediocre accomplishments is evidence of perceived objective "importance," that just doesn't track. How many parents do you think attend a kindergarten school play and see their child's effort as "important" beyond any other child's on the stage?

I don't have the exact quote or even remember who said it (strong between is CS Lewis or GK Chesterton), but there is a line about humility that is something like "a humble person can build the greatest cathedral to God, and feel no greater or lesser joy than if someone else did." Your pride in your cooking isn't that you are better than the best professionals, it's that you see your cooking as more important. Pride doesn't care if you're objectively better or worse, it tells you that you are the most important either way. It is not enough to simply feel joy at the good thing that you made, your ego must be fed. If you're just happy to have fed people and you feel no bigger, you aren't describing pride at all.
You're just wrong. Many people are proud of a lot of things that aren't important. Pride =/= importance; the only one equating the two is YOU for some intentionally flawed reason. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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You're never going to out argue someone who's just a bigot towards gay and transgender people
Tstorm isn't just a bigot towards gay and trans people. He is a bigot towards everyone who isn't exactly like him. Because he, in all his self-importance, sees himself as the norm, the standard, the target everyone should aspire to- and if you don't, if you aren't doing everything you can to be just like him, it's a sign of mental illness or self-delusion... because why else wouldn't you want to?