US 2024 Presidential Election

[Hades]

Machado presents Trump with her Nobel award at White House meeting

Trump thanked Venezuelan opposition leader María Corina Machado, calling it "a wonderful gesture of mutual respect".

www.bbc.com

Ah, good, Trump has received the prize it so desperately deserves. Well, not really, but it can maybe pretend it did, and that's the same thing.

Still, Trump is nothing if not petty, so I might not make difference for the quisling.

It be totally like Trump to take the nobel peace price and than betray her, leaving her hanging without any aid.

 

[Agema]

It be totally like Trump to take the nobel peace price and than betray her, leaving her hanging without any aid.

Of course he's likely to do that. He's got plenty of form.

 

[Thaluikhain]

One would be somewhat surprised if he didn't.

 

[Agema]

A point in ICE's favor that I'm not going to leave unsaid, even 58 per 100,000 is still substantially safer than national averages, even comparing only to the likely age groups. People are safer in ICE custody than not, a result I reiterate is predictable to any rational person.

If you think it's predictable to a rational person that deaths in ICE custody are lower than the national death rate, then similar reasoning would come to the conclusion it should not necessarily be to ICE's favour.

Migrants skew to being young and healthy, so that's therefore also the sort of people most deported. Illegal migrants need to work, so people who are elderly and/or ill tend not to migrate (will often be unable to, if sufficiently infirm). Thus in fact, age-matched migrants may be on average be more healthy than the native population.

The main causes of death in young and healthy people are accidents. Fatal accidents are relatively challenging to have in detention, as there are so few opportunities to fall from high places, be hit by cars, ingest poison, etc. Also up there is suicide, but that may also be difficult because of being under scrutiny, having restricted access to means of self-harm, or being with cellmates who may prevent self-harm or call for assistance. I don't think that a detention system can really earn merit just because stopping people living a normal life reduces certain risks.

 

[Agema]

Yes, those people were nuts.

It's interesting to bring up different forms of protest for good reason.

You are asking us to extend empathy to a guy who shot a woman in the head. But you are the same time demeaningly dismissing the woman as having a psychotic meltdown. You are indicating a seeming inability to usefully extend empathy or understanding to a whole load of other people you disagree with. And this is the sort of reason we are perhaps skeptical about your line of argument about empathy, because you don't appear to be practicing what you preach.

 

[tstorm823]

I don't think that a detention system can really earn merit just because stopping people living a normal life reduces certain risks.

I agree that it is not a point of merit, per se. It is not necessarily worth applause that they aren't killing people. That being said, when the opposition is laying the foundation for the argument that ICE are killers by choice and immigration detention is death camps, it is a strong counterpoint that people are dying less in there, precisely what you would expect from law enforcement and detention centers performing their intended roles in good faith, rather than with the desire to abuse and kill immigrants.

It's interesting to bring up different forms of protest for good reason.

You are asking us to extend empathy to a guy who shot a woman in the head. But you are the same time demeaningly dismissing the woman as having a psychotic meltdown. You are indicating a seeming inability to usefully extend empathy or understanding to a whole load of other people you disagree with. And this is the sort of reason we are perhaps skeptical about your line of argument about empathy, because you don't appear to be practicing what you preach.

There's a simple enough distinction: what were each of them doing there? ICE did not want that altercation at all, they were doing their jobs which don't involve those protestors. I think she made a mistake trying to drive away, but I also would say that was the most rational thing she did in that video. They chose to hunt down ICE operations and put themselves in the way. They chose to create that situation, and I think that's nuts. I'm quite certain I used the same sort of judgment, either stupid or insane, in describing Kyle Rittenhouse. The action itself may have been deemed justified self-defense, but nobody in their right mind would put themselves in that position in the first place. If I'm either Rittenhouse or Good's partner looking back with the benefit of hindsight, I'm going "what was I thinking being there?". If I'm the officer, that's not the question, cause he was there for work and they intercepted him.

 

[Agema]

but nobody in their right mind would put themselves in that position in the first place.

I hate to break it to you, but you not being able to understand why someone does something may be a shortcoming in your understanding rather than a shortcoming in their sanity.

 

[Hades]

There's a simple enough distinction: what were each of them doing there? ICE did not want that altercation at all, they were doing their jobs which don't involve those protestors. I think she made a mistake trying to drive away, but I also would say that was the most rational thing she did in that video. They chose to hunt down ICE operations and put themselves in the way. They chose to create that situation, and I think that's nuts. I'm quite certain I used the same sort of judgment, either stupid or insane, in describing Kyle Rittenhouse. The action itself may have been deemed justified self-defense, but nobody in their right mind would put themselves in that position in the first place. If I'm either Rittenhouse or Good's partner looking back with the benefit of hindsight, I'm going "what was I thinking being there?". If I'm the officer, that's not the question, cause he was there for work and they intercepted him.

On who's behalf are they doing that job there? Not on behalf of the people and government of Minesota who by and large don't want them there. And behaving like complete animals when faced with pretty understandable anger at their unwanted presence and bad behavior is only making it worse.

And why are they even doing the job there? Aren't they on the entirely wrong end of the counry? You'd think the states in the Southern border would uh...''need'' their....''help''.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

You seem to get annoyed when Trump gets called far right, but you don't seem to have a problem with calling the center right democrats as ''far left''. Why is that? Even Mamdani has more in common with Scandinavia than he does with Stalin.

And we seem to be going in circles since I've already said I'd not blame anyone supporting Mamdani for supporting the far right....because Mamdani isn't part of the far right. He's not out to get you. His free busses aren't meant to do you harm. If the actual right wing returns to prominence in America we can discuss the nuances of right wing vs left wing economics.



I'd not not really deny that. Especially after the coup attempt Trump voters don't have valid opinions. If they think Europe should be replaced with Russia as America's ally and that Europe should be done harm then their opinions aren't valid. Even if they're just fine with it rather than actively craving it their opinions aren't valid. If they think democracy should be replaced with Trump their opinions aren't valid. If they approve of ICE occupying a blue state and behaving like animals their opinions are not valid. If they celebrate Trump for years of misrule, a coup and years of corruption then their opinions indeed aren't valid. At that point malice or supreme idiocy are the only two explanations left to explain their actions. Donald Trump is not a legitimate force in politics and neither is the far right as a whole.

Is the other side any better in this regard? Are they any more accepting of the other side? No. They're hysterical. For reasons they can't even explain they find the opposing side so teeerible they felt democracy had to be curtailed when it resulted in Trump losing office. Trump habitually calls everyone who's not part of the far right ''far left lunatics who are destroying America'', and Vance calls people he doesn't like ''the enemy from within. Apparently the Trump administration also calls people their goons murder ''domestic terrorists''

You can't blame the Democrats for rightfully calling Trump a fascist while condoning Trump calling them far worse for far less reason. The Republicans are not the ''civilized'' alternative. Far from it. So no, this point is just sheer hypocrisy on your part. As a general rule demagogues and populist have the stance that they are the only force in politics with legitimacy. They especially do not have any right to complain anyone else is ''mean'' to them.

Personally I think gleefully rushing to the far right far more insulting to the victims of fascism to be more offensive to their victims but to each their own. I don't think any victim of fascism was all that happy when that filth Vance came to Europe saying our real problem was not being supportive of the far right enough, calling our minorities the enemy from within and shilling for the German neo nazi party.

Mamdani is farther left than Trump is right so if Trump is far right according to you, then Mamdani is definitely far left. Also, he did hire someone to a housing office that is for socialized housing, that is pretty left wing and probably far left in my opinion. So if Mamdani does plan on trying to do that, then I would consider him far left. I don't care if Mamdani's intentions are trying to help people or not, his policies will greatly hurt people if they are actually enacted.

Again, you're saying stuff that is far wackier than Joe Rogan.

-Nobody thinks Russia should replace Europe as America's ally.
-Nobody thinks democracy should be replaced by Trump (literally the democrats did more anti-democratic things last election...)
-If the left approves of local law enforcement ignoring federal laws and not cooperating with ICE (and even calling for ICE to get the fuck out), then their opinions aren't valid. You have double standards for everything.
-What years of misrule under Trump? What did he do in his 1st term that was so bad?
-The left doing the same thing over and over again that makes things worse and expecting different results is insanity. Thus, according to your logic, then those people voting for insanity, their opinions are not valid.
-Donald Trump was legitimately DEMOCRATICALLY elected to president twice so he is a legitimate force in politics. Just because you don't like him doesn't change that fact.

The left and democrats gave the same hyperbolic and exaggerated messaging in the opposite regard, yet you only criticize the right. At least the right didn't use an F-bomb when talking about the situation.

Trump is not a fascist, you don't know what that word means... This hyperbolic and exaggerated language just causes people to become more divided and make things worse. Just because other people use the same hyperbolic and exaggerate rhetoric doesn't mean you have to as well. The democrats are demagogues and populist as well... The more you use hyperbolic language and exaggerations either 2 things happen; 1) people stop listening to you and ignoring you because they see you're full of BS or 2) you make them extreme because they believe everything you say and become paranoid.

You're like the Police Captain from Die Hard, "You're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Quit being part of the fucking problem and put the other guy back on!"

Vance did not say what you claim in his speech. He said nothing about minorities. He said you can't have out-of-control immigration, which IIRC at least 90% of Americans believe and I'd very likely think most of Europe believes. He said nothing about minorities. He commented on free speech being curtailed, which is bad, that's literally anti-far right. He commented on a democratic election was cancelled, which is bad. How is Vance wanting democracy to no longer be around while literally advocating for democracy and democratic values? Stop lying about what people say and then exaggerating what they say.

Such as?

What have the Democrats uniquely supported, which the Republicans do not, and makes housing costs worse?

Rent control, zoning laws, voting against changing the zoning from single family homes to higher density housing. Liberal NIMBYs vote against any policies that make housing more affordable pretty much every fucking time. For example, in New York, there's a law that saying developments that have more than 99 units have to pay high labor costs so now everyone are building housing developments with 99 units whereas they'd build bigger developments if not for the law meaning that there's less units on the market and they will cost more to rent because the supply can't meet the demand. That's just one of many left policies that cause supply issues in cities. Kamala Harris' proposed housing policy was also very fucking stupid and would only increase the price of houses.

That's how the United States still is. You've done nothing to refute the point. A candidate being popular in the United States does not mean they are not far right.

 

[BrawlMan]

​

 

[Hades]

-Nobody thinks Russia should replace Europe as America's ally.
-Nobody thinks democracy should be replaced by Trump (literally the democrats did more anti-democratic things last election...)
-If the left approves of local law enforcement ignoring federal laws and not cooperating with ICE (and even calling for ICE to get the fuck out), then their opinions aren't valid. You have double standards for everything.
-What years of misrule under Trump? What did he do in his 1st term that was so bad?
-The left doing the same thing over and over again that makes things worse and expecting different results is insanity. Thus, according to your logic, then those people voting for insanity, their opinions are not valid.
-Donald Trump was legitimately DEMOCRATICALLY elected to president twice so he is a legitimate force in politics. Just because you don't like him doesn't change that fact.

-The vermin in the White House definitely think so. Trump has always been open in his hatred of us and his admiration for Putin. Is he talking about stealing European land? or Russian land? When he send that rat Witkoff to negotiate with the Russians who's side did he take? Which of the two is all but stated to be America's enemy in that disgusting strategy document?
-Who won in 2020? Biden? Who was MAGA extremely desperate to see take office in 2021 after the election had taken place? Donald Trump. Kindly don't lie. Had they had any other stance they would have shut the fuck up and accepted Biden into office. The whole point of the coup was to refuse the democratic outcome on an election.
-Ice is merely an unwanted force that behaves like complete animals. That seems more a problem of them than of the state that rightfully doesn't want the lunatics to be let loose and endager people. Not a double standard.
-Kindly don't play dumb. Its beneath you. The impeachments, corruption, the coup attempt and the deliberately bungled pandamic are all public knowledge. You know it already and so did everyone else.
-Why would that be? Why is being a bog standard center right politician ''insanity?'' Its not what the country needs but its not literally insane. I haven't seen any Democrat go around saying Americans should be disgusting ingrates and steal European lands.
-How funny. When Biden was elected Trump had to be forcefully installed into power at all cost. But now the American electorate was uniquely foolish Trump's legitimacy is suddenly beyond dispute? But whether I like or dislike someone isn't really a factor. Its whether they are far right and corrupt criminals to boot.

Mamdani is farther left than Trump is right so if Trump is far right according to you, then Mamdani is definitely far left.

If that was the case Mamdami would be some anti democratic nutjob who'd take open inspiration from 1920's Russia. And considering that's not the case he's not more left than Trump is right.

The left and democrats gave the same hyperbolic and exaggerated messaging in the opposite regard, yet you only criticize the right. At least the right didn't use an F-bomb when talking about the situation.

Trump is not a fascist, you don't know what that word means... This hyperbolic and exaggerated language just causes people to become more divided and make things worse. Just because other people use the same hyperbolic and exaggerate rhetoric doesn't mean you have to as well. The democrats are demagogues and populist as well... The more you use hyperbolic language and exaggerations either 2 things happen; 1) people stop listening to you and ignoring you because they see you're full of BS or 2) you make them extreme because they believe everything you say and become paranoid.

Bunch of complete nonsense with the point of trying to enforce the idea that Trump and his politics are normal. Just repeating it doesn't suddenly turn Trump into Mark Rutte. If there are similarities between Trump and certain people in Germany its because Trump deliberately embodies traits that overlap with them. That's his fault, and not of the ones that notice it.

Vance did not say what you claim in his speech. He said nothing about minorities. He said you can't have out-of-control immigration, which IIRC at least 90% of Americans believe and I'd very likely think most of Europe believes. He said nothing about minorities. He commented on free speech being curtailed, which is bad, that's literally anti-far right. He commented on a democratic election was cancelled, which is bad. How is Vance wanting democracy to no longer be around while literally advocating for democracy and democratic values? Stop lying about what people say and then exaggerating what they say.

And what does the far right consider ''out of control immigration?''. Too much brown people perhaps? But yes less migration IS a popular opinion. Across the spectrum. So why would we need the far right for that and why does Vance insist that we do? And why does someone who supported a far right lunatic who did a coup thinks he has the right to lecture us on democracy? Why is doing a coup to get a corrupt rapist in power democratic, but fighting against a literal Russian agent not? And why does the administration trying to fire or brutalize people that disagree with them think they have the right to lecture us when we tackle hate speech? Well, because hate speech is their bread and butter for one.

Perhaps Vance insisting we should let a Russian agent brought to power by Russian bots be a leader in Europe say certain things about him, and that thing wouldn't be Vance supporting democracy. What it would indicate is Vance abusing his power to enforce the far right and its Russian backer's goals in Europe.

But no. You know very well that Vance was not some concerned friend of us. He was a deeply hostile, sack of vermin to who'm no hypocrisy was too much to vent his hatred for us, to boost the far right and to slander people who didn't consider every brown person in Europe as subhuman. He despises us for being thriving democracies.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Not an argument.

 

[tstorm823]

I hate to break it to you, but you not being able to understand why someone does something may be a shortcoming in your understanding rather than a shortcoming in their sanity.

Would you ever block ICE activities with your vehicle with you inside? Follow-up question, why wouldn't you?

 

[tstorm823]

On who's behalf are they doing that job there? Not on behalf of the people and government of Minesota who by and large don't want them there. And behaving like complete animals when faced with pretty understandable anger at their unwanted presence and bad behavior is only making it worse.

And why are they even doing the job there? Aren't they on the entirely wrong end of the counry? You'd think the states in the Southern border would uh...''need'' their....''help''.

They are there on behalf of the federal government, and the work for them is there because Minneapolis banned their local police from cooperating with federal law enforcement and all city employees from even inquiring into immigration status. This means that where other jurisdictions are identifying people breaking immigration law and doing things like releasing an illegal alien into ICE custody after they are arrested or convicted of a crime, Minneapolis is collecting and sheltering those people. This means both that there are more people there hiding from deportation than there are elsewhere and that ICE needs to bring in all the manpower it needs to act without any local assistance whatsoever.

 

[Trunkage]

Machado presents Trump with her Nobel award at White House meeting

Trump thanked Venezuelan opposition leader María Corina Machado, calling it "a wonderful gesture of mutual respect".

www.bbc.com

Ah, good, Trump has received the prize it so desperately deserves. Well, not really, but it can maybe pretend it did, and that's the same thing.

Still, Trump is nothing if not petty, so I might not make difference for the quisling.

We have to hand out participation tropies to world leaders now

 

[Seanchaidh]

Would you ever block ICE activities with your vehicle with you inside? Follow-up question, why wouldn't you?

neither caution nor cowardice are the same thing as sanity

 

[tstorm823]

neither caution nor cowardice are the same thing as sanity

Oh, don't get me started on you.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Oh, don't get me started on you.

go ahead

 

[tstorm823]

go ahead

You believe in nothing and thus would not put any amount of yourself on the line for any cause, sane or otherwise.

 

[Silvanus]

Would you ever block ICE activities with your vehicle with you inside? Follow-up question, why wouldn't you?

If the answer to "why wouldn't you" is "fear that they'd kill me", then that reflects worse on ICE than on the driver.