ICE should fuck off, be disbanded, and then face trial for crimes against humanity.
US 2024 Presidential Election
- Thread starter gorfias
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Ross was dragged by a car for 100 yards a few months back. Let's not forget a car can be used as a dangerous weapon. Acting like his response is an objectively wrong reaction that somebody shouldn't possibly have to that situation is itself ridiculous. People have very different responses to high pressure moments all the time where there's little to no time to react. There's no level of training that just makes you good at reacting when you do finally face such a situation. The vast majority of cops never fire their gun and really have no actual experience in such situations. Whether it's a high pressure situation when playing a sport or being in an actual life and death situation (something teachers, nurses, doctors rarely face), there's no way to train for it that will 100% make you react properly. If there was, then athletes would never choke in big pressure moments and athletes train and practice more than anyone else. Everyone reacts differently to rather mundane things like say how much variance when someone tosses something to someone, some people catch it easily, some cover of their face in fear of getting hit. Driving in snowy conditions, some people freeze and scream when their car slides and end up in a ditch, some calmly correct the slide and it's essentially a non-event.
I tone matched your post that I was responding to on purpose.
If someone you don't know follows you and then blockades your car in the street, you're not at all worried about that?
I have DVDs sitting on my shelf that are older than ICE is...
ICE has become so tainted by this administration that it needs to be completely blown up and removed as an agency.
It was INS before ICE...
ICE has literally been doing all these same things over all the administrations, nobody complained when ICE did the same shit under Obama.
Last edited:
entirely unnecessary. not only because their supposed function was already being done by other agencies before the 2000s, but because that core function is not necessary at all in the first place. it is a choice.
Firstly, I am a private citizen. If someone did that to me as a lone, private citizen in a street, then it would lack all the relevant context of what happened, and add a ton of inapplicable context that makes it scarier. This is like asking "would you be scared if a crowd turned up at your private house with placards" to imply that doing that outside an embassy is inherently equally threatening.
I have, however, worked in places that attracted protest (of a rather different stripe). And no, I was not "terrified" of nonviolent protest. Because it's clearly not threatening.
- Feb 7, 2011
- 9,039
- 3,716
- 118
- Country
- 'Merica
- Gender
- 3 children in a trench coat
Because they didn't do the same thing under Obama. They also didn't do the same thing under the first Trump administration either.
- Feb 7, 2011
- 9,039
- 3,716
- 118
- Country
- 'Merica
- Gender
- 3 children in a trench coat
Please show me articles about ICE killing US citizens during the Obama administration, articles about them attacking families in cars with flashbangs, or articles about them sending immigrants to foreign prisons without due process and in contravention of judicial orders.
I also don't remember thousands of federal agents being deployed to cities to hunt down immigrants "door to door" without warrants, or them refusing to cooperate with local law enforcement, or them harassing off-duty police. Please show me evidence of this happening under the Obama administration.
But if he's allegedly so traumatised by this that he feels forced to murder people in cars then why is he operating in the field? Why didn't ICE recognize his extremely fragile mental state and put him on desk duty? Or force him to sit down with a shrink?
If he can't control his fear(or more likely his rage) then he's in the wrong line of work. And someone got murdered because of it
Sure, sure. And not answering any of the points raised either, because that's what you also do when you're losing the argument.
If you're comparing to a fixed protest at an embassy, you are the one erasing the relevant context. If people turn up at an embassy with signs to protest a country, that's reasonably expected behavior. If people figure out where the ambassador is going that day so they can get ahead of him and use their cars to trap him in the road, that is a very different scenario, and you're not going to be upset if his security takes action, because that's not what people do to protest, that's the sort of thing they do when they want to murder you. If this was a protest at an ICE facility and they surrounded her car and got spooked when she drove, that would be a very different scenario, but that's not what happened.
You said "I have consistently declined to state any definite claims on what the agent or the woman was thinking" when responding to me saying "This isn't about having absolute knowledge, this is about stating a perspective".
I will give this one more try, as it has become rather involved, and if you refuse to give a straight answer, me not caring about what you're saying anymore is only evidence of your responses being useless.
I suggested that the ICE agent thought those women were nuts. I did so because I'm not ICE and I think they were nuts in that moment. Ultimately, this lead to you saying:
" I hate to break it to you, but you not being able to understand why someone does something may be a shortcoming in your understanding rather than a shortcoming in their sanity. "
But since then, you have refused to answer whether you would do the same thing they did, you have refused to answer if you thought their actions were reasonable, you have not asserted that their actions were actually sane things to do. This is not a matter of concrete knowledge, it is just asking for an opinion, because at this moment, for all anyone else knows, you may entirely agree with my statement that they were nuts, and your comment above is a criticism of both of us.
It is relevant to our discussion of the shooters intentions what you think of the actions of the women, because if you think they were at minimum totally unreasonable being there, why would you not analyze the situation from the assumption that ICE also sees them as unreasonable people?
Whether I eat salmon has no meaningful bearing on whether it's reasonable for other people to eat salmon.
I have, you just seem to have a problem with nuance. Perhaps I can put it this way. Were the women sane, almost certainly. Were they reasonable, probably significantly more so than not, albeit with a substantial margin of error given limited knowledge.
Then ICE are incompetent. If they want to use their own prejudices and ignorance as a basis for dealing with other people rather than reality, then they will be likely to carry on unnecessarily shooting civilians in the head.
Rather fitting the American finance minister Scott Bessent gave Europe the same advice a rapist would give its victim. Advice Trump probably gave his victims on Epstein's island.
''Don't be hysteric, don't ressist and take a deep breath''
Be sure to investigate him when America has a legitimate government again.
''Don't be hysteric, don't ressist and take a deep breath''
Be sure to investigate him when America has a legitimate government again.
You have not. This is the first time you have made a statement addressing the point.
And now you're as bad as most of the others here, because you definitely don't think they're reasonable at all. You might not say insane, but you know as well as I do that their behavior was unhinged and beyond reason.
And as much as you think ICE calling the woman a swear word after is evidence that they didn't fear for their lives, the partners words immediately after are a much stronger demonstration of their detachment from reality: "why do you have real bullets?" (which right wing media has picked up on), but even more telling "it's my fault". She went from "You can't touch me, I'm a US citizen" to "why do you have real bullets" to "it's my fault", that is a step-by-step realization of how insane their actions were. She knows it herself, how could you not?
You've spent pages insisting that reality is unknowable and judging ICE based on your personal prejudices and ignorance.
If you don't want people shot in the head, don't encourage roadside ambushes of law enforcement.
Oh please. It is not a secret or a matter of privacy where ICE are operating. They are public-facing, directly engaging with the public. You directly engage with the public as part of your work-- especially your highly confrontational, controversial work-- then protest is also expected behaviour. Its just ludicrous to equate this with tracking someone down when they're not in the course of their public-interacting duties.
Matt Taibbi also wrote a book about all the stuff ICE does over 10 years ago.
You do realize trauma and mental issues are not something you can just objectively know and/or fix, right? Someone can think they are OK and the mental health expert can also think they are as well, that doesn't mean they are. Just like you can't actually fully train for life/death situations, you can't actually accurately evaluate mental states either. Please stop using words wrong, there is literally no way by definition that he murdered anyone. We have words for a reason, please use them properly or else we don't have a language and can't communicate properly.
I'd consider it a fair criticism if not for the fact that you're applying a double standard in calling out other but never Trump, who is famous for name calling and ad hominems.
Get over yourself, he tried to launch an insurrection, the fact that his party managed to suppress the charges/case against him doesn't absolve him, and is therefore ineligible for election.
ICE is not seeking warrants and does not adhere to the rule of law, local law enforcement should be arresting ICE agents, not considering cooperation.
And then he went on to tell people not to take the vaccine and not to trust the doctors and scientists that recommended it. He also tore up a deal that was actually slowing Iranian progress towards nuclear weapons, cost america goodwill all across the world, emboldened dictators, bootlicked authoritarians and signed a deal with the Taliban that his successor had to honour, with quite the set of consequences.
I haven't done enough reading on the topic so I couldn't tell, but socialized housing seems to work in a bunch of other nations.
He is not a legitimate force in that he does not adhere to the laws governing governance, he violates norms and processes all the time and undermines the democratic process, thus taking away legitimacy from his reign.
Doesn't make it a bad idea, nor is it anywhere near far left, far left would be the banning of private stores, or at least the disadvantaging of such stores.
Trump acting like a fascist does, however, make it true.
People, as you frequently prove, aren't really all that smart, aware of what is best for them, or aware of what consequences their desires might carry. This goes double when schooling has been devalued and information is inseperable from propaganda.
The American population was largely supportive of the war in Iraq and look what a shitshow that turned out to be, it even resulted in more of the immigrants they didn't want.
A government must be informed and must act in the interest of the citizens, which sometimes means denying the citizens what they truly want. At the same time a government must adhere to standards, both moral and legal because that is, in part, where they derive their legitimacy. Of course the right to govern in a democracy is chiefly derived from the votes of the citizens, but it is also based on the fact that, even when they don't support you, you will act in a manner befitting your station.
It also means looking at the long term and beyond personal grievance, something the current administration seems largely incapable of.
Donald Trump shows several fascistic tendencies and I would certainly be ready to argue that his actions and behavior does qualify as those of a fascist.
Final addendum: Hands off Greenland.