It's ok to be angry about capitalism

[BrawlMan]

I Though Game Publishers Cared About Protecting Their IP
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People are literally Genie 3 AI to create worlds of actual games, and they're developing at fast rate. Using public data from videos and coming from Google themselves. Yet no other game companies are throwing a fuss about it. Not even Nintendo so far with a lawsuit in site. Yet they're able to do these lawsuits and DMCA take downs on the average Joe or non-corporate entities who don't have the cash to go court. None of these companies do a damn thing, and their stocks are plummeting right now, but don't want to admit to themselves or their shareholders AI is doing nothing, but wasting everyone's time.

 

[Schadrach]

There are however interesting questions that can be asked about liability. One of which is fault: for instance, run into the back of someone (assuming they didn't do some dick move) and the driver behind is liable. But this sort of liability potentially becomes much harder to justify with automated drivers. Maybe in the new world, the insurance bill just needs to be split.

If your vehicle has Lane Assist, or Forward Collision Avoidance does those systems being there and asserting some measure of control of the vehicle make the manufacturer or dealer responsible for any collision you might be in, in any scenario at all? More complete self driving is just the next step along that line, and isn't going to change liability unless there's discovered a flaw in the self driving that the manufacturer left in place negligently.

Waymo is slightly different, since it's essentially a driverless Uber. I'd presume Waymo as the owner and operator of the vehicles would hold liability rather than the rider, same as you aren't liable for an accident when you ride in a cab or Uber, the driver is. Waymo chooses to have no human oversight of the vehicles operation and they own that choice.

Then there's another issue. Let's say Tesla is cheaper than Waymo but more likely to cause a crash. How do we deal with this? Does there need to be a penalty applied to Tesla? Tesla can undercut Waymo in sales just by being cheaper, but if this doesn't reflect the cost of crashes then we end up with a less safe automated driver system dominating. In fact, we probably end with a "race to the bottom" where the automated driver systems try to undercut each other as much as possible at the expense of safety.

How is this different than any other scenario where a vehicle manufacturer is weaker on safety in a way that increases accidents relative to other manufacturers? Traditionally, the end result isn't a penalty applied to the manufacturer (unless they've cut corners in an illegal fashion, or in a negligent way that leads to civil suits), but different makes and models of car having different insurance rates based on safety numbers and repair costs.

 

[Gergar12]

Fundamentally, the way to handle automated drivers is that the company who make the system should have liability in case of accident. What I suspect is actually going to happen is that the system will be rigged so that liability falls on the car owner/user's insurance. And thus the price of automated driver systems will be artificially cushioned from and fail to reflect their potential for harm.

For instance, Musk mocks Waymo because it's much more expensive to run that Tesla. (Note that Waymo also employs Filipinos to do work as some sort of live remote driver assist in a way that's not clear.) But Waymo seems to have a substantially better safety record than Tesla. If society were to properly bill Tesla for all the additional accidents it causes relative to Waymo, would Tesla still be cheaper?

And also, we need to bear in mind that Tesla has a huge amount of information about crashes, but it won't release them. We don't even know in many cases to what extent Teslas have maimed and killed their passengers, because Tesla won't say and authorities don't demand the data to scrutinise. Tesla claim in many cases that the human had control of the car at the point of impact, but some leaks or evidence suggests that this is a trick: the automated driver has ceded control of the car to the human a split-second before the crash occurred, when it was too late to prevent. We cannot trust these companies to mark their own homework.

That's true, but that won't happen in the US, and I suspect not even in the EU as much given US pressure on EU regulations of the tech companies. I think many of the EU's regulations are great on tech(Ex. GDPR), but taxes are where I draw the line because the EU could then tax US services, but not automobiles which manufacturing economies could gain the edge on the US, since many states follow EU laws as models for themselves now everyone will start taxing services, and services which are getting crushed everywhere by underemployment, automation, outsourcing, offshoring, and unemployment will get crushed even more. Granted the EU can do anything they want, but the US could then counter tariff, tax, whatever.

 

[BrawlMan]

Milei brings back slavery.

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[Agema]

If your vehicle has Lane Assist, or Forward Collision Avoidance does those systems being there and asserting some measure of control of the vehicle make the manufacturer or dealer responsible for any collision you might be in, in any scenario at all? More complete self driving is just the next step along that line, and isn't going to change liability unless there's discovered a flaw in the self driving that the manufacturer left in place negligently.

I think here I was wondering more about forms of liability between drivers. For instance, if you run into the back of someone, you are generally liable unless you can prove the guy in front did something seriously wrong. But once AIs are in control of the cars, I wonder whether the same rules will hold the same way. I mean, if a moving car hits a properly parked, stationary car, sure, that's on the owner of the moving car. But there are potentially circumstances where liability may change, especially with access to the data systems of the cars themselves to determined what went wrong.

Waymo is slightly different, since it's essentially a driverless Uber.

For now, but Waymo will clearly be looking at a future as a mass market application for private car owners. A future where all, or nearly all, cars will come with an automated driver as standard. In fact, assuming automated drivers work, I expect that within our lifetimes cars will start being made without human controls at all.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Real Canadian Superstore fined for ‘misleading’ Product of Canada displays - National | Globalnews.ca

Real Canadian Superstore has been fined $10,000 by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency for what the agency says were 'misleading' displays about 'Product of Canada' labels.

globalnews.ca

A fine of $10,000 for a billion dollar company? What a joke! They definitely made more than 10k from that little scheme, as most things that were 'products of Canada' had suspiciously gone up in price (the things made in Canada and thus not being subjected to tariffs). It was purely to take advantage of patriotism to wring extra money out of their customers and they get fined $10,000.

" A fine of $10,000 for a business is considered a 'very serious' violation, according to the CFIA’s administrative monetary penalties list, which includes violations 'committed by persons or companies in the course of business or for financial gain, the penalty amounts may be adjusted up or down, depending upon the total gravity value.' "

A 'very serious' flick on the wrist!

Fines for corporations should be a percentage based off of their net worth. That's the only way that fines have any meaning across the business spectrum and large companies can't just eat all negatives consequences without even noticing.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Sometimes is handy to know who's the worst of the worst, and how they're literally profiteering from being in your bloodstream and likely DNA right now too.

The Boys continue the story of the Du Pont dynasty as they evolve from World War I profiteers into architects of the modern age, embedding themselves in everything from General Motors to the chemicals in your very own bloodstream. From leaded gasoline and the coup to overthrow Franklin D. Roosevelt to their role in the Manhattan Project and napalm, the 20th century becomes a Du Pont production. War, coups, forever chemicals - profit at every step, with no accountability.

 

[thebobmaster]

Real Canadian Superstore fined for ‘misleading’ Product of Canada displays - National | Globalnews.ca

Real Canadian Superstore has been fined $10,000 by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency for what the agency says were 'misleading' displays about 'Product of Canada' labels.

globalnews.ca

A fine of $10,000 for a billion dollar company? What a joke! They definitely made more than 10k from that little scheme, as most things that were 'products of Canada' had suspiciously gone up in price (the things made in Canada and thus not being subjected to tariffs). It was purely to take advantage of patriotism to wring extra money out of their customers and they get fined $10,000.

" A fine of $10,000 for a business is considered a 'very serious' violation, according to the CFIA’s administrative monetary penalties list, which includes violations 'committed by persons or companies in the course of business or for financial gain, the penalty amounts may be adjusted up or down, depending upon the total gravity value.' "

A 'very serious' flick on the wrist!

Fines for corporations should be a percentage based off of their net worth. That's the only way that fines have any meaning across the business spectrum and large companies can't just eat all negatives consequences without even noticing.

Incidentally, that's why civil lawsuits/torts have a section for punitive damages. It's specifically to make it so that companies feel the impact of the judgment and don't have the mentality encouraged by fines like this. As you pointed out, they made more than $10,000 most likely.

 

[Agema]

Incidentally, that's why civil lawsuits/torts have a section for punitive damages. It's specifically to make it so that companies feel the impact of the judgment and don't have the mentality encouraged by fines like this. As you pointed out, they made more than $10,000 most likely.

It's one thing I like about American law. Really fuck with people? Get really, really fined. I don't think my country ever imposes really brutal fines for serious fuckery.

 

[Schadrach]

I think here I was wondering more about forms of liability between drivers. For instance, if you run into the back of someone, you are generally liable unless you can prove the guy in front did something seriously wrong. But once AIs are in control of the cars, I wonder whether the same rules will hold the same way. I mean, if a moving car hits a properly parked, stationary car, sure, that's on the owner of the moving car. But there are potentially circumstances where liability may change, especially with access to the data systems of the cars themselves to determined what went wrong.

Why I used something like Lane Assist as an example. A vehicle with active lane assist will adjust your steering to try to keep you in lane, it'll even provide some resistance in trying to steer out of lane (at least mine does, unless you signal in that direction first - not enough to stop you from doing it, but you can feel it push against you). What if lane assist misunderstands where the lane is and tries to guide the car to sideswipe someone? That is essentially the same question using technology that most cars built in the last decade or so have, yet we're not asking those same liability questions for it but instead accepting that the driver having the ability to at any time override the machine's ability to automatically drive for you (to whatever degree it can do so) means the driver is liable for what the machine does. So long as that remains the case - the human is able to override automatic driving for any reason and at any time - liability will remain on the driver's head.

I expect that within our lifetimes cars will start being made without human controls at all.

...and that, right there is exactly the cutoff point where "who is liable" becomes a meaningful question, but we're not remotely there yet. If the owner of a vehicle has no way to control said vehicle and no way to play any role in whether or not the vehicle is in an accident, I'd argue the owner is not liable barring either a failure to properly maintenance the vehicle in a fashion responsible for the accident or performing some kind of modification to the vehicle that was a cause, in which case it'd be on their head.

 

[Agema]

If the owner of a vehicle has no way to control said vehicle and no way to play any role in whether or not the vehicle is in an accident, I'd argue the owner is not liable barring either a failure to properly maintenance the vehicle in a fashion responsible for the accident or performing some kind of modification to the vehicle that was a cause, in which case it'd be on their head.

I think we're mostly on the same page, except I would argue that if the company puts out material purporting to show scientifically that automated drivers are safer than humans, I think not liable applies whenever the human isn't using them even if human controls are available.

 

[Schadrach]

I think not liable applies whenever the human isn't using them even if human controls are available.

This is I think explicitly the line on which we disagree. If a human is capable of controlling their vehicle and chooses not to, that is on them. Even though it's not hard to be safer than most human human drivers in most situations because humans are very bad at driving - there's a reason it's the single most dangerous thing a large number of humans do on a daily basis.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Start spreadin’ the news

BlackRock CEO Larry Fink Says New York Is Losing Its Edge as 'Other States Are More Attractive Now' — Housing Costs, Crime and Education Have People Rattled

New York City has always sold itself on momentum — the sense that even when it stumbles, it still moves faster than everywhere else. But in April, during a conversation hosted by the Economic Club of New York, BlackRock CEO Larry Fink suggested the ...

finance.yahoo.com

 

[Agema]

This is I think explicitly the line on which we disagree. If a human is capable of controlling their vehicle and chooses not to, that is on them.

Okay, but the companies are putting out information which claims ("scientifically") that the autodriver is safer than a human. They are therefore providing evidence to convince us that a rational human being wanting to do the safest and most responsible thing would be to concede control to the software.

To hold a human liable here feels like what is meant by a "reverse centaur": the human being is just in the mix to take the blame if something goes wrong.

 

[BrawlMan]

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[Gergar12]

The same people saying this would kill their own mother to get into the US in a top 5-10 city.

 

[thebobmaster]

Your commenting against this is a bit rich from someone who's saying that the problem is that we aren't killing enough leaders.

 

[Gergar12]

Your commenting against this is a bit rich from someone who's saying that the problem is that we aren't killing enough leaders.

Yeah fuck the leaders, it's regular people we shouldn't be killing.

Edit: Also this is a subreddit for immigration, I will let you guess which country they always ask to go to. Hint it's not in the EU.

 

[Silvanus]

Edit: Also this is a subreddit for immigration, I will let you guess which country they always ask to go to. Hint it's not in the EU.

Firstly, are you talking about migrants or refugees?

Secondly, what are you even talking about anyway? Europe as a whole as a greater immigrant population than the US, and a much greater refugee population.

 

[Gergar12]

Firstly, are you talking about migrants or refugees?

Secondly, what are you even talking about anyway? Europe as a whole as a greater immigrant population than the US, and a much greater refugee population.

I am talking about people in that specific subreddit.