National Guard called into Minneapolis

[CaitSeith]

I refuse to simplify it any more than that, as it would become an oversimplification of a complex issue, and therefore, misleading.

But you already have stated "people in the wrong have no right to cry oppression", and that's an oversimplification you already endorse.

 

[Houseman]

But you already have stated "people in the wrong have no right to cry oppression", and that's an oversimplification you already endorse.

I stand by that statement, and I don't think it's an oversimplification.

Do you, perhaps, think that getting pushed into traffic is analogous to oppression?

 

[CaitSeith]

I stand by that statement, and I don't think it's an oversimplification.

Do you, perhaps, think that getting pushed into traffic is analogous to oppression?

Less in the act of pushing the jaywalker back into the traffic, and more in the sense of justifying it because the jaywalker is in the wrong.

 

[Revnak]

Also the shooter was an MP. So a cop. A right wing terrorist cop killed a cop to start a race war and the problem is Antifa. This is nonsense. This is what was done during the Civil Rights movement. The Panthers get slaughtered by the Feds and called violent lunatics while Nazis bomb churches and cops brutalize thousands. Read a goddamn book.

New details in killing of officers in Oakland, Santa Cruz: Suspects linked to right-wing extremist group

On the morning of May 29, federal authorities say, as protests erupted nationwide over...

www.sfchronicle.com

Edit: I repeat, do not let yourself be lectured about fake news by the pizzagate man

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Whether more common or more widely reported, there's a pretty justified fear for safety. It's this that motivates anti-fascists and anti-racists to turn out, and that's the reason anti-fascist protests are becoming more common.

The threat is the motivating factor; anti-fascists see this as a defensive situation. Without that threat to safety, this situation of growing social protest wouldn't exist.

To put the threat into perspective 2018 (the most recent Numbers I could find) Right wing Extremists were deemed to have killed 50 people in 2018 this was the finding of a report by the ADL.

To put that in perspective.

100 people die each year in the USA due to bee stings
100 people die each year in the USA from Scalding themselves from a hot tap
50 people a year die due to fire ants biting them
300 people each year die due to Toasters

Division is profitable.
Division helps create drama and well

Ah, thank you. Shitty behaviour from those throwing bottles etc.

I have to wonder about the police use of horses in these scenarios. I've attended a protest in the past in which the police charged horses into a crowd of peaceful protesters; the chaos that ensued could easily have resulted in injury, either for the protesters or the officer. It was a monumentally stupid approach.

It's been done and worked in the UK for years.

There's no solid definition, so I can't really answer that. But I wouldn't have thought so. I'd think that in order for someone to be associated, they'd have to self-identify with the group specifically, not just broadly identifying as "against fascism".

Well if any of them were still around on the internet I'd ask them lol.

Those people will only speak for their own individual church. Not for the thousand other Protestant churches, or for non-affiliated Protestants. That's my point.

Even then an individual church will have structures and leadership.

Uh-huh. It was still an event organised by self-proclaimed neo-Nazis, explicitly for their allied groups, and attended overwhelmingly by white supremacists and neo-fascists.

Not exclusively only attended by them though.

This is just bait.

It's also proving a point.

I mean if there were no manipulation you'd easily be able to go through the list and identify the lies from the truth without much effort.

Tell you what I'll give you a start.

Trumpy Bear is a real product you can really buy.

Ok. But this is all just about why he should be allowed to speak.

Once again: we're specifically talking about whether the freedom of speech affords him that specific platform. Talking about how we should hear dissenting views and blah-de-blah isn't relevant to that question.

Well the determination of giving him use of the platform was based on the rules in place requiring and organisation to show sufficient support for a speaker to come which is what happened

 

[Houseman]

Less in the act of pushing the jaywalker back into the traffic, and more in the sense of justifying it because the jaywalker is in the wrong.

When I'm talking about "oppression", I'm talking about 'at scale'. At the scale where it becomes less about anecdotes, and more about statistics. So, yes, simplifying that down so that a single jaywalker is equal to 'the oppressed' would be an oversimplification.

Individual acts can be looked at and evaluated on a case by case basis. You lose that ability at scale. That's why it's complex. That's why the oil rig example works, while the jaywalker example is an oversimplifcation.

And this is a problem of scale, because we're talking about 'black lives matter', plural, not 'George Floyd did or didn't deserve to die', singular.
We're talking about systemic racism, which implies scale.
That's why we're talking about 'the black community' or at least we were, until the goalposts were moved.

Your analogy is kind of like saying "If you go gambling, does that mean that you deserve to get mugged? You agreed to the risk of losing all your money didn't you? So it doesn't matter HOW you lose your money!"
Seems kind of disingenuous and misses the point. "How" matters.

 

[ObsidianJones]

*snips*

I'm going to clean this up as much as possible because we don't need any more flags on this thread.

First and foremost, if you want to talk about misrepresentation, you blatantly said that I'm talking about a race war. I am not. I said Black Community, the government, some segments of the populace, and the police.

Do you know why I've continually said it like that? Because I realize there are blacks in the government. In that segment of populace. And definitely black police. In fact, in one of those videos I placed up, a black cop was being 'defended' by a white officer.

The 'gotcha' of "I'm not talking about Floyd" doesn't hold water if I'm talking about the Floyd case to stress my overall point. The point that I've stated multiple times and you only partially addressed once.

Criminality does not forgo human civility.

I've stated over and over again that Blacks, like every other race, has criminals. The movement isn't called "All Black People Are Innocent", its called "Black Lives Matter". Arrest every black person who's committed a crime. I'll thank the cops. That's what they are supposed to do. Any person who commits a crime, the cops are supposed to arrest. That's the end of it.

But even criminals have rights. Things that are not supposed to be violated. Methods that are too extreme and have no place in some of these confrontations. Once again:

Criminality does not forgo human civility.

I spoke of Floyd's encounter as a shorthand that even if he committed the crime, the manner of which he was held was inhumane. Resisting or no. And that's the end of it. I don't know if Floyd is guilty of knowingly trying to use a fake 20 dollar bill, and either did the cops. A conversation could have happened. In finding out he's a regular, they could have asked the store if they noticed him using fakes before. If not, an actual mistake could have been made. There's no need to always rush to criminal or no because mistakes can be made. And they can be solved without arrests a lot of the time.

But quotas are to be made. So de-escalation takes a backseat to collars.

To be treated like a violent criminal when you're not even a criminal is a galling and too often familiar thing for the Black Community. If you want, I can stream more examples of people just going about their day who were killed or violently detained for a mistake in judgment. There are plenty of names. And I have the time.

But to address something that I need you to understand.

I can not move a goal post in a discussion with you if said 'move' happened in a discussion with someone else. Unless you're Dwarfenhobble as well.

You jumped on my conservation with him. I'm addressing him in that manner. I would be compelled to address him in a continuous manner if him and I were still having a conversation. You are new to this discussion. A branch off occurred. But yet and still, I continued in a manner that suited me because I do not have any pre-existing obligation to respond to you in a manner that you apparently deemed we should have continued... when I wasn't talking to you in the first place. But I did. I spoke about it. I summarized using Floyd's case that even if he was guilty, he did not deserve that violence. And I used other examples of how police are going amuck. But if you want to focus on a name and ignore what my over all point was:

A third time for the people in the back

Criminality does not forgo human civility.

Even if Black People commit crimes (Which they certainly do), they must be arrested within standards that is humane. That is the big, horrible message that Black Lives Matters keep stressing. That is my point. And the fact people keep fighting against that notion (which is beyond me) and police are quitting in droves because they don't like the fact that they can't slam people around and are distressed by being "restrained by the politicization of [their] tactics" (their words, not mine), I can only shrug in confusion. And wish them well in life.

Oh. And lastly, to put this to bed: I'm not trying to paint anything into anything more than what it is. According to the UN, anyway..

In a statement issued on Friday, they urged the US authorities to address systemic racism and racial bias, and to conduct independent investigations into cases of excessive use of force by police officers.
Roots in slavery“The origin story of policing in the United States of America starts with slave patrols and social control, where human property of enslavers was ‘protected’ with violence and impunity against people of African descent. In the US, this legacy of racial terror remains evident in modern-day policing”, they said.

 

[Houseman]

The 'gotcha' of "I'm not talking about Floyd" doesn't hold water if I'm talking about the Floyd case to stress my overall point.

Do you want to talk about the Black community, or do you want to talk about Floyd?
Do you want to talk about oppression at scale, or whether or not Floyd, personally, was oppressed?

Because if you just want to talk about Floyd, we can wrap this up real quick by saying "yes, he was treated poorly, yes this shouldn't have happened, yes we should look into punishment and/or additional training for this specific precinct and these specific officers", and then we can all go home.

If you want to talk about anything other than that, then everything I said, that you haven't yet responded to, comes back into play.

But even criminals have rights. Things that are not supposed to be violated. Methods that are too extreme and have no place in some of these confrontations.

I agree.

even if he committed the crime, the manner of which he was held was inhumane

I agree.

Even if Black People commit crimes (Which they certainly do), they must be arrested within standards that is humane.

I agree.

The only thing I objected to was how you seemed to paint it as "innocent, Christian, oppressed, black people just want to be treated humanely", which conveniently leaves out the "who", "how", and "why" surrounding incidents of police brutality, and the unwarranted mixing of all these different reasons to create a single, oversimplified narrative of "they're racist".

 

[CaitSeith]

Individual acts can be looked at and evaluated on a case by case basis. You lose that ability at scale.

True; but once you see a large enough number of similar cases, large scale patterns appear. To discard so much anecdotal evidence without investigating the possibility of it being a symptom of a bigger issue is a cop-out.

 

[Houseman]

but once you see a large enough number of similar cases, large scale patterns appear. To discard so much anecdotal evidence without investigating the possibility of it being a symptom of a bigger issue is a cop-out.

No one is doing that. I just disagree that your analogy about the jaywalker does the issue justice.

 

[CaitSeith]

To put the threat into perspective 2018 (the most recent Numbers I could find) Right wing Extremists were deemed to have killed 50 people in 2018 this was the finding of a report by the ADL.

To put that in perspective.

100 people die each year in the USA due to bee stings
100 people die each year in the USA from Scalding themselves from a hot tap
50 people a year die due to fire ants biting them
300 people each year die due to Toasters

50's called: they want their deflection argument back...

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

50's called: they want their deflection argument back...

Well bringing up right wing extremists here to excuse riots and looting is a deflection itself.

Also (not that you'll likely address this) but what's the plan here?

Right wing Extremists have been claiming a race war is coming and that's why they are needed. So what's the plan to give them the stupid race war they seem to want by trying to fight them? Seems counter productive to me especially in the present state.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

50's called: they want their deflection argument back...

Please don't post videos from that person.

 

[Revnak]

Ok, so does anyone actually care that it’s kinda plain to see now that most of the violence going on here (towards actual people) is a result of cops, boogs, and fash? Or is reality irrelevant before the moral arguments of suburban whites? What utter nonsense, what absurd ahistorical bullshit. Read a goddamn book, see the clear fucking road we are on, and pick your damn side.

 

[ObsidianJones]

The only thing I objected to was how you seemed to paint it as "innocent, Christian, oppressed, black people just want to be treated humanely", which conveniently leaves out the "who", "how", and "why" surrounding incidents of police brutality, and the unwarranted mixing of all these different reasons to create a single, oversimplified narrative of "they're racist".

I have to say one more time, no one cares if you arrest people for doing wrong things. We all want that.

And that's the problem. Because while I admired cops to the point that I was going to be one just ten years ago, I realize that cops are just human beings. Civil Servants. We have to leave ideals at the door when you're dealing with life or death situations. Not every black person who was killed by cops was killed unjustly. I completely get that. Not every cop is a good guy. A good number of people have trouble with that. And that's where the disconnect comes into play.

...

As a gun owner, I'm willing to have more restrictions placed on me and what I can own if it strips the police officers their speaking piece that they need to shoot first and ask questions later. I actually believe Black Lives Matter. And yes, All Lives at that. And if I think that, I'm willing to give something up as simple as a firearm if that means more people can make it home to their families.

First and foremost, every stereotype about the rampant criminality of the black community stems from the Police Force itself. Again, like I'll always say, the Black Community isn't not without crime. Of course there's crime. But the problem is dishonesty within the police force. From training cops that every situation is a life or death situation that has gotten many an innocent civilian killed to frequently reported yet constantly ignored misconduct of police officers.

...

And these are the people who got caught. Not every cop is a crook, but there are enough that one (if they truly wish to be impartial) will have to doubt them as much as they have to doubt the 'criminals'. The burden of evidence because now more pronounced due to the police's very own actions.

I KNOW we need police. There's no question we do. But there's enough of the cancerous cells that are in power or are given leadership roles that actual training reform will do nothing for the guy who has your back in the street who will 'tell you how it really is'. Who tells you what rules to enforce and what rules you can break for the safety of all.

...

If push comes to shove, I would rather have more people alive than dead any day of the week.

Just the Innocence Project itself. If the Police have the capability to get it wrong even a little bit, it will affect people's lives in untold ways. Like I said, this isn't just about black people being innocent. There are black criminals.

And yet... I will never tell anyone not to comply. Because it's even more dangerous to do so. But the point of the matter is that dealing with the authorities is treacherous for certain people. The safest option leads to the most injustice. That is what infuriates the most of us. Because we are soft targets. No one cares. People want to read this stat and that, not stopping to think about how much corruption is shown in the police force... Oh, just a bunch of bad apples. But any true criminality in the black community doesn't get that "bad apple" handwave.

We'll ignore the mountains of evidence of corruption for almost every level of policing in this country. and still buy their reporting as fact because it's comfortable. Or more over, they don't treat other people like that, so it's acceptable.

Maybe if the culture wasn't so used to be lied to, talked over, dismissed, and treated like animals that need to be broken, maybe they would listen to cops more. Maybe if they didn't see their lives constantly being put in harm's way, maybe they would even trust them.

And lastly, it doesn't freaking matter if someone is innocent. They are still human. If you killed five people tomorrow and you went in quietly, I would step in front of anyone who would try to cause you pain. What you did might be vile, but any damage visited upon you when you're not doing anything is beyond the pale and uncalled for. Civilization can not function like that. Innocent or Guilty, all must be met with a measured hand of justice. Not one solely driven by rage and excused away because "HE'S A CRIMINAL".

Even if Black People commit crimes (Which they certainly do), they must be arrested within standards that is humane. That is the big, horrible message that Black Lives Matters keep stressing. That is my point. And the fact people keep fighting against that notion (which is beyond me) and police are quitting in droves because they don't like the fact that they can't slam people around and are distressed by being "restrained by the politicization of [their] tactics" (their words, not mine), I can only shrug in confusion. And wish them well in life.

Ok, that is every post save for one that I made in the last five pages.

I've stressed multiple times that Blacks commit crimes. And this isn't even just about innocent people who had police brutality visited upon them. That criminals must be detained in an appropriate manner.

I've stated that this happens disproportionately to the Black Community because we are soft targets. I did not say because the rest of America thinks blacks are inferior or deserve said treatment because they aren't human. That would be racism. I've stated over and over again that the majority didn't care unless it directly affected them, or they are simply used to how things are.

I even pointed out while police gets the few bad apples defense, the same will never be said for the Black Community.

You, however, said I was hinting at this is some sort of race war

But to try and paint it as some issue of 'oppression' and making it out to be a race war is a bridge too far.

There is a lot you're inferring. Allow me to sum up. Through their tenure in this nation, the Black Community has had nothing but trials and tribulations. Some done through actual racist means. Some done because other than Native Americans, Blacks are the softest targets in the US. While a good deal of the treatment deal to blacks are remnants of a bygone and more hateful era, there's a lot of treatment and ideology based on tradition. This is how it was done to blacks, so this is how we will continue. Anyone can get indoctrinated into that. Black cops do it to black people. Black teachers do. Black doctors.

It is my fervent wish to get rid of all of that. And from the goals of law enforcement, I do not want people brutalized. Any Race, Any Sexuality, Any Religion. I would not be happier one iota if we suddenly boosted Blacks to the Status of White People in this nation and the latinos became the new Blacks. No one should be treated that way. No matter the reason. We are humans. We are all we have. And we should do better by each other.

 

[Houseman]

And this isn't even just about innocent people who had police brutality visited upon them.
I've stated that this happens disproportionately to the Black Community

It only appears to happen disproportionately to the Black Community because you're mixing in the innocents with those who violently resist arrest.
Breonna Taylor is being lumped in with Rayshard Brooks, and a narrative is being formed devoid of nuance.

When you adjust for all these different factors, everything equals out.

If you want me to take back what I said about the 'race war', I'll do that, since that's not my main objection.

 

[Buyetyen]

Because of course they weren't. Funny how body cams just never seem to work right, or how officers just forget to turn them on, in black people's presences. Clearly the problem can't be cops are state-sponsored terrorsts, and body cams under officers' control and without adequate oversight was a deliberate non-solution, black people must just emit some form of heretofore-unknown electromagnetic field that causes spontaneous body cam shutdown.

Do you think it's because they're listening to that Satanic swing music while smoking their jazz cigarettes?

Ok, so does anyone actually care that it’s kinda plain to see now that most of the violence going on here (towards actual people) is a result of cops, boogs, and fash? Or is reality irrelevant before the moral arguments of suburban whites? What utter nonsense, what absurd ahistorical bullshit. Read a goddamn book, see the clear fucking road we are on, and pick your damn side.

There also needs to be acknowledgment that there is no reasoning with white people who do this. Bigotry is an inherently irrational concept, and if one has bigoted beliefs, that irrationality will affect other areas of their life too.

 

[Revnak]

There also needs to be acknowledgment that there is no reasoning with white people who do this. Bigotry is an inherently irrational concept, and if one has bigoted beliefs, that irrationality will affect other areas of their life too.

Reasoning? No, there isn’t. Their framing for “reason” is so obtuse that you’re absolutely correct. Some people need to come face to face with a reality devoid of the intricate framework of justifications they’ve built up to not give a damn. The anarchist framing of “bigots” being dumb or evil is incorrect. They just have no stake in reality right now, no stake in the message being presented to them. That’ll change eventually I hope, and direct action, education, and outreach will help. Hopefully.

 

[Avnger]

It only appears to happen disproportionately to the Black Community because you're mixing in the innocents with those who violently resist arrest.
Breonna Taylor is being lumped in with Rayshard Brooks, and a narrative is being formed devoid of nuance.

Please show me the case law that states the penalty for "resisting arrest" even "violently" is police brutality up to and including death (at the discretion of the officers involved).

Please also show me case law that states "resisting arrest" immediately and without reservation causes a person to forfeit their constitutional rights to the following:

1. not be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law (5th amendment)
2. a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. (6th amendment)
3. trial by jury (7th amendment)
4. not have cruel and unusual punishments inflicted upon them (8th amendment)

 

[Hawki]

1. not be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law (5th amendment)
2. a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. (6th amendment)
3. trial by jury (7th amendment)
4. not have cruel and unusual punishments inflicted upon them (8th amendment)

I know this is off topic, but it's kind of surreal to see ammendments read out that aren't the 1st or 2nd. 0_0