John Bolton's new book...

[Agema]

Here's a question I've never pondered until just now: can a lie be classified? If someone reveals information that would be classified if it were true, but the statement is fiction, would the White House be able to remove that content? Trump still doesn't want this book out, but it's apparently been thoroughly checked to not reveal any officially classified information. Should we then assume that anything said that could be classified is therefore inaccurate?

No, we can't assume that.

Something is classified or it is not; we can only really tell whether something is classified if it is tested. Thus something might be true, classified and published, basically because no-one checked or a mistake was made in the checking.

Bolton claims that the NSC has checked the material. If we take that as true, we should therefore assume nothing in it classified, or that it's sufficiently borderline that it was cleared when it shouldn't have been. Of course, the other issue is libel, so Bolton shouldn't say anything untrue that can get him sued.

 

[SupahEwok]

No, we can't assume that.

Something is classified or it is not; we can only really tell whether something is classified if it is tested. Thus something might be true, classified and published, basically because no-one checked or a mistake was made in the checking.

Bolton claims that the NSC has checked the material. If we take that as true, we should therefore assume nothing in it classified, or that it's sufficiently borderline that it was cleared when it shouldn't have been. Of course, the other issue is libel, so Bolton shouldn't say anything untrue that can get him sued.

I'm of the same mind. If Bolton had written any single thing that would let Trump sue him, Trump would, and Bolton must know that. And from any direction, not just Trump himself; Trump is not above setting any agency, including the military, on a book if any of them can prove libel. For that alone, I'm inclined to believe Bolton, even if I doubt his reasons and his lack of action in the impeachment proceedings.

 

[Avnger]

Here's a question I've never pondered until just now: can a lie be classified? If someone reveals information that would be classified if it were true, but the statement is fiction, would the White House be able to remove that content? Trump still doesn't want this book out, but it's apparently been thoroughly checked to not reveal any officially classified information. Should we then assume that anything said that could be classified is therefore inaccurate?

Except Trump can at-will declassify any material he wishes (we've seen exactly how much he cares about classification such as when his handing information over to the Russian government at a White House meeting and discussing classified materials during open-air meetings at his public country club). All he would have to do is declare any one detail as declassified and then sue Bolton for libel. Yet, he, for some reason, fails to take such easy steps. I wonder why?

Though I do love your "the DEEP STATE has once again tricked our dear 'very, very large brain` President and forced him to martyr himself against the hates-Trump-above-all lying Bolton" narrative. It's simultaneously child-like in it's simplicity and yet fake-moon-landing in it's conspiracy level.

 

[stroopwafel]

Just ordered the book so this should be a good read next week. Just completed Don Rumsfeld's memoirs Known and Unknown. It's a missed opportunity of Trump not to hire this genius, though he would have probably been too old anyway. Extremely skilled bureaucratic maneuverer. If this guy had been a lawyer you could stand over a corpse, gun in hand with the police barging in and Rummie could still make a compelling argument that observable facts are not necessarily the facts observed. All the disastrous policy decisions during his tenure at the Bush adm; none of it his fault. And he actually makes a strangely convincing case. xD Not gonna lie, I was always intrigued by how clever he was. He could defeat people(whether they be senators, legal persons or journalists) with their own arguments. His Pentagon press briefings were also legendary. His restructuring of the military, making it a highly specialized quick-to-react adaptive force despite massive resistance from the establishment is widely recognized as proper 21st century strategy which Obama also made ample use of with the all the special access programs and drone strikes.

 

[tstorm823]

Except Trump can at-will declassify any material he wishes (we've seen exactly how much he cares about classification such as when his handing information over to the Russian government at a White House meeting and discussing classified materials during open-air meetings at his public country club). All he would have to do is declare any one detail as declassified and then sue Bolton for libel. Yet, he, for some reason, fails to take such easy steps. I wonder why?

Though I do love your "the DEEP STATE has once again tricked our dear 'very, very large brain` President and forced him to martyr himself against the hates-Trump-above-all lying Bolton" narrative. It's simultaneously child-like in it's simplicity and yet fake-moon-landing in it's conspiracy level.

I don't know where you're reading conspiracy theory here. The book was vetted, so in theory it can't contain classified information. If you read something that you imagine the NSC would block if it's true, is that evidence of its falsehood? It really has nothing to do with the individuals involved, it's just a funny logical argument.

 

[dreng3]

Just ordered the book so this should be a good read next week. Just completed Don Rumsfeld's memoirs Known and Unknown. It's a missed opportunity of Trump not to hire this genius, though he would have probably been too old anyway. Extremely skilled bureaucratic maneuverer. If this guy had been a lawyer you could stand over a corpse, gun in hand with the police barging in and Rummie could still make a compelling argument that observable facts are not necessarily the facts observed. All the disastrous policy decisions during his tenure at the Bush adm; none of it his fault. And he actually makes a strangely convincing case. xD Not gonna lie, I was always intrigued by how clever he was. He could defeat people(whether they be senators, legal persons or journalists) with their own arguments. His Pentagon press briefings were also legendary. His restructuring of the military, making it a highly specialized quick-to-react adaptive force despite massive resistance from the establishment is widely recognized as proper 21st century strategy which Obama also made ample use of with the all the special access programs and drone strikes.

In the interest of justice you should probably cancel the order and torrent a pdf version instead. Just to avoid letting that snake Bolton profit off his complicity in this presidency.
Or just wait for every chapter to be meticulously detailed in various papers and on various websites.

 

[Agema]

In the interest of justice you should probably cancel the order and torrent a pdf version instead. Just to avoid letting that snake Bolton profit off his complicity in this presidency.
Or just wait for every chapter to be meticulously detailed in various papers and on various websites.

I think it's certainly objectionable that John Bolton will accept $2 million to spill this, but would not tell an impeachment hearing unless compelled to by a Senate vote that he must have known that they would not make. And given that stance, it makes him a revolting hyprocrite to criticise the Democrats for not expanding the impeachment probe. He's the star witness, and he's not going to play ball.

 

[Worgen]

I don't know where you're reading conspiracy theory here. The book was vetted, so in theory it can't contain classified information. If you read something that you imagine the NSC would block if it's true, is that evidence of its falsehood? It really has nothing to do with the individuals involved, it's just a funny logical argument.

I think hes assuming you will defend trump against anything 'like if trump shot someone who was unarmed in the street you would still find a way to defend him' kinda assumption.

 

[Revnak]

My favorite thing to learn from this is that apparently Trump think Guaido is a huge loser. I love it. I love seeing Trump kinkshame Bolton’s coup fetish.

 

[stroopwafel]

In the interest of justice you should probably cancel the order and torrent a pdf version instead. Just to avoid letting that snake Bolton profit off his complicity in this presidency.
Or just wait for every chapter to be meticulously detailed in various papers and on various websites.

Heheh perhaps but these kind of memoirs always peak my curiosity and I'm really glad they exist in a democratic society and I also like to make up my own mind and not go off by what others say. I mean, it's unlikely I'll change my opinion of John Bolton but these kind of books always gives an insight into their thoughts and worldview.

 

[dreng3]

Heheh perhaps but these kind of memoirs always peak my curiosity and I'm also really glad they exist in a democratic society and I also always like to make up my own mind and not go off by what others say. I mean, it's unlikely I'll change my opinion of John Bolton but these kind of books always gives an insight into their thoughts and worldview.

I guess. Letting the man profit from this mess just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'll buy it when it appears as a source in a court document.

 

[Dalisclock]

I mean, it's unlikely I'll change my opinion of John Bolton but these kind of books always gives an insight into their thoughts and worldview.

I'm of mixed feelings. I despise both Trump and Bolton for totally different reasons and watching them butt heads like this only makes me wonder "Can we get lucky enough for them both to destroy each other?".'

The fact Trump is so keen to block the book probably means there's a fair bit of embarrassing truths in there. Or he's a colossal idiot who is willing to die on the most worthless of hills for the sake of his ego.

 

[stroopwafel]

I'm of mixed feelings. I despise both Trump and Bolton for totally different reasons and watching them butt heads like this only makes me wonder "Can we get lucky enough for them both to destroy each other?".'

The fact Trump is so keen to block the book probably means there's a fair bit of embarrassing truths in there. Or he's a colossal idiot who is willing to die on the most worthless of hills for the sake of his ego.

Definitely, I really dislike them both as well. They are both also really polar opposites; the isolationist vs the interventionist. That Bolton can somehow rationalize for himself that Trump's demands on Ukraine to probe Biden's son in exchange for military support is somehow a flagrant violation of legal procedure yet advocating invasions in Iraq, Iran or North-Korea on(in the case of actual war in Iraq) false assumptions and illegal grounds that costed tens to hundreds of thousands of lives somehow isn't? Or the dubious motivation to unilaterally cancel Obama's nuclear agreement with Iran on false grounds that plunge the country and international relations with the E.U. in disarray? Or him trying to convince Trump in 2018 to retreat from the INF treaty that could provoke a new arms race and lose one of it's most important checks to keep proliferation under control? Either way it will be interesting to read what Bolton has to say, espescially with his long and arduous track record.

 

[Agema]

Definitely, I really dislike them both as well. They are both also really polar opposites; the isolationist vs the interventionist. That Bolton can somehow rationalize for himself that Trump's demands on Ukraine to probe Biden's son in exchange for military support is somehow a flagrant violation of legal procedure yet advocating invasions in Iraq, Iran or North-Korea on(in the case of actual war in Iraq) false assumptions and illegal grounds that costed tens to hundreds of thousands of lives somehow isn't? Or the dubious motivation to unilaterally cancel Obama's nuclear agreement with Iran on false grounds that plunge the country and international relations with the E.U. in disarray? Either way it will be interesting to read what Bolton has to say, espescially with his long and arduous track record.

I suspect Bolton's central issue is that he believed what he was doing was for the USA's national interest, but that Trump sacrifices the USA's national interest for his own personal gain.

What's the saying? "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." Trump's aggressive clamour about the glory of the USA is just cover for his rampant self-interest.

 

[stroopwafel]

I suspect Bolton's central issue is that he believed what he was doing was for the USA's national interest, but that Trump sacrifices the USA's national interest for his own personal gain.

What's the saying? "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." Trump's aggressive clamour about the glory of the USA is just cover for his rampant self-interest.

Yeah, you could be right about that. Though you'd expect after the disastrous military misadventures of the last two decades and all the damage it did in terms of lives and treasury lost and the ongoing fallout of regional chaos with concurring disruption of foreign interests and relations that only strategic rivals benefit from to atleast reconsider that line of thought.

For all the legitimate criticism on Trump we can atleast be fortunate he never listened to this deceptive adviser.

 

[Gordon_4]

It weirds me out that everytime some farce like this happens in Government - any government - I can trace back a parallel to the Yes Minister/Prime Minister series. Mind I don't think Bolton will do President Trump the favour of dropping dead, and even if he did the book's already in print.

 

[Hawki]

It weirds me out that everytime some farce like this happens in Government - any government - I can trace back a parallel to the Yes Minister/Prime Minister series.

Trump really needs a Humphry in his administration.

 

[Agema]

For all the legitimate criticism on Trump we can atleast be fortunate he never listened to this deceptive adviser.

I don't think "never" is true. Bolton held that position for a long time - well, a long time by the normal standards of Trump appointees - and got plenty of stuff done. This isn't necessarily stuff done with Trump's explicit approval but probably because Trump wasn't paying attention: I don't think Trump is interested in a lot of things that government does. They certainly appear to have had some significant disagreements and developed a mutual loathing.

But Bolton was a well known operator with a clear agenda: a wiser president would simply not have appointed him in the first place. My suspicion is that Trump liked what he sae in Bolton at a distance because he talked about taking tough lines on all sorts of targets, and Trump loves to appear tough. But Trump put no thought into what it would be having this uber-hawk in his executive.

 

[Gordon_4]

Trump really needs a Humphry in his administration.

I think Sir Humphrey is something that the American people would find genuinely terrifying.

 

[stroopwafel]

I don't think "never" is true. Bolton held that position for a long time - well, a long time by the normal standards of Trump appointees - and got plenty of stuff done. This isn't necessarily stuff done with Trump's explicit approval but probably because Trump wasn't paying attention: I don't think Trump is interested in a lot of things that government does. They certainly appear to have had some significant disagreements and developed a mutual loathing.

But Bolton was a well known operator with a clear agenda: a wiser president would simply not have appointed him in the first place. My suspicion is that Trump liked what he sae in Bolton at a distance because he talked about taking tough lines on all sorts of targets, and Trump loves to appear tough. But Trump put no thought into what it would be having this uber-hawk in his executive.

Yeah, but fortunately Trump kept his restraint during situations that could have easily escalated, like when Iran shot down that U.S. drone or when Iran threatened to block the Hormuz strait when the U.S. ended the oil waver program. Trump even called off a last minute attack not willing to risk unnecessary casualties. I'm sure Bolton still got his way in some domains(which will probably be in the book) but it's a far cry from a president like Bush jr that just took over the advice of Perle/Wolfowitz/Feith etc wholesale. Bolton really felt at home during that particular administration and it's been the most disastrous one since the end of the Vietnam war.