I love it but I don't want to play it again.

[Johnny Novgorod]

@CriticalGaming & @Johnny Novgorod I never liked Spec-Ops: The Line. While it had good ideas, they felt forced and hypocritical in its messages. Plus, the cover shooting was bland. Don't say that was the point. I heard that more times than I care to count. MGS2 did all of themes The Line did back in 2002 for better effect.

I always feel people calling Spec Ops "hypocritical" are missing the point, like it's almost a kneejerk reaction to criticism. If you paid for it and you're playing it god forbid you're moved out of your comfort zone. And then comes the argument about beating the game by not playing it. Same deal with Michael Haneke movies. Spec Ops is playing to the gung-ho attitude that absolutely 100% of every player is going for when they boot it into it just to play hero. This is like watching Apocalypse Now and complaining about being confronted with the darkness of the human condition. How dare they make me feel anything if I'm not responsible for the things happening.

And MGS is absolute nonsense, convoluted enough that people can pick it apart for hours and pretend there's value to it.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Dark Cloud 2. I love the game, love the artstyle, characters, gameplay, all of it. Except Spheda. Screw Spheda.

It just takes too damn long to play. It's quite the journey to finish the game if you actually want to get involved with the gameplay and side stuff and when you do that it just goes WAY too long for me to find much time for it even 10 years ago when I had more of it.

 

[BrawlMan]

I always feel people calling Spec Ops "hypocritical" are missing the point, like it's almost a kneejerk reaction to criticism. If you paid for it and you're playing it god forbid you're moved out of your comfort zone. And then comes the argument about beating the game by not playing it. Same deal with Michael Haneke movies. Spec Ops is playing to the gung-ho attitude that absolutely 100% of every player is going for when they boot it into it just to play hero. This is like watching Apocalypse Now and complaining about being confronted with the darkness of the human condition. How dare they make me feel anything if I'm not responsible for the things happening.

I get the point, but I don't agree with its message or how the methods are done.

1. The game railroads you in to the white phosphorus incident. The player has no choice, but Walker automatically makes the decision for you.
2. It's the game literally talking down to the player who (most likely) bought the game at $60. I hate any type of media that talks down to their, supposed, audience like that. Most people don't pay $60 to be put down; especially if you're someone who just bought it out of simple curiosity.
3. Spec-Ops was criticizing violence, violent escapism, or "justified violence" in general when it came video games. Not just military shooters.
4. I called bullshit immedately and was barely taken out the comfort zone. I was more dumbfounded than anything.
5. Apocalypse Now, which is an adaption of Heart of Darkness (both take inspiration from the novel) gets it point across better than Spec-Ops The Line.
6. I will give them credit for the hallucinations and nightmare scenes, but that is it. Top notch voice acting too from everyone.

 

[ObsidianJones]

I can never touch Telltales The Walking Dead again.

It burned itself in my soul. Every second of Lee and Clem's adventure drained me. It showed me what it is to be a parent. My survival was only worth it if it meant the survival of Clem. I wanted to see her smile, I wanted to see her grow, and I would end worlds if it meant she was safe.

And then the ending. And to see that sorrow. I'm over 8 years removed and just reliving it in my head is too much.

Add to that, the knowledge of Telltale's formula. You see the stitching once you're removed. Your choices weren't choices. You were going to come to this destination. And the illusion of choice is the tool to make every sucker punch more 'impactful'. Once you see you couldn't stop many things, you're just looking for the beats to say "See, it can always be worse!"

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Furi - I beat the final boss. The actual final boss. It took me like 6+ hours to Git Gud enough to do it. I think after beating it I couldn't do it again. I couldn't go back and have to re-do all the muscle memory to pull it off again.

Minecraft - Such a time sink. just such a time sink

Alone - A Roguelike survival game. It can be beaten in like 2 hours. It took me 8 hours and man that ending. It's so in keeping with the game but no, just no I don't want to face that level of just loss of hope again.

 

[Dalisclock]

\

@CriticalGaming & @Johnny Novgorod I never liked Spec-Ops: The Line. While it had good ideas, they felt forced and hypocritical in its messages. Plus, the cover shooting was bland. Don't say that was the point. I heard that more times than I care to count. MGS2 did all of themes The Line did back in 2002 for better effect.

I was tempted to put MGS2 in there but I don't love it. I have respect for what it did and tried to do(though I came to it 15 years too late so most of it wasn't nearly as impactful as it was at the time. It's almost impossible to be ignorant of its big impact by this point). I appreciate how it updated a lot of things from MGS(Alerts or even missed call ins spawn special search teams to sweep the area, much better shooting mechanics, etc), some of the parts drove me up the goddamn wall with how obnoxious they were. In particular, that whole Escort mission with E.E.(who is afraid of Goddamn EVERYTHING) and then ends with her dying anyway left a really poor taste in my mouth. Oh, and the whole "Fight the final boss with a sword, a weapon you have like 5 minutes of training with in the entire game" was also pretty grating. The constant cutting between gameplay and cutscenes was annoying and while MGS4 had more cutscene time, it wasn't nearly as choppy as MGS2 were.

Oh, and those radio calls with Rose. "Yes, please bug me about relationship problems in the middle of a mission! It's not like anything important is at stake or this can wait till later or anything!"

 

[Kae]

I get the point, but I don't agree with its message or how the methods are done.

1. The game railroads you in to the white phosphorus incident. The player has no choice, but Walker automatically makes the decision for you.
2. It's the game literally talking down to the player who (most likely) bought the game at $60. I hate any type of media that talks down to their, supposed, audience like that. Most people don't pay $60 to be put down; especially if you're someone who just bought it out of simple curiosity.
3. Spec-Ops was criticizing violence, violent escapism, or "justified violence" in general when it came video games. Not just military shooters.
4. I called bullshit immedately and was barely taken out the comfort zone. I was more dumbfounded than anything.
5. Apocalypse Now, which is an adaption of Heart of Darkness (both take inspiration from the novel) gets it point across better than Spec-Ops The Line.
6. I will give them credit for the hallucinations and nightmare scenes, but that is it. Top notch voice acting too from everyone.

If it makes you feel a bit better the staff at Yager hated working in that game according to the writer, that includes him, they also said that they wouldn't work in a sequel at all, not that it would be an option since the games was actually a commercial flop.

But if I can defend the White Phosphorous scene for a little bit, I won't claim that it isn't railroaded or anything of the sort but the game actually displays great design when it comes to choice in other areas, normally presenting you with a scenario in a binary way but still allowing you to try other options and continuing even if you fail, so even if everything backfires they had given the player enough of an illusion of actual choice that it could be plausible to convince them that the white phosphorous was their choice possibly allowing them to feel guilty about the situation, sounds like a trick I would attempt to pull on my players as a tabletop GM, just saying.
Another angle is that it's likely that implementing a branching story from that point would have simply proved too costly and time consuming and it just wasn't feasible, while this may be perhaps too apologetic on behalf of the developers, I think it's important to acknowledge that everything would have needed to be completely different if you had a choice, and considering the other choices the game I wouldn't consider it out of the question that at some point during development this scenario was a choice rather than mandatory.

That being said it doesn't change the fact that the trick will simply not work on everyone, and as such is flawed and we can't really spare a game from criticism simply because they possibly didn't manage to implement a plot-line so you know all criticisms are fair.

As for the 2nd point, I get it I can see why people don't like that and well that's partly why the game failed, being preached to an insulted by a game that forces you to do some of the stuff why it talks down you is certainly unappealing, but I personally don't feel like it makes it a lesser game, and I personally didn't mind mind it.

As for everything else, it's a fair assessment of the game, there's a reason why it's divisive in general being condescending to your audience isn't really a good idea, not to mention that what was promised by the marketing was a tactical shooter similar to SOCOM, which is definitely something at which the game fails by both in the fact that the shooting is mediocre and the fact that it really isn't particularly tactical and you're ability to command your squad is pretty limited anyway, but yeah promising that and doing a bait and switch with a game that ultimately puts you down for wanting that which it promised is definitely a terrible idea, I won't deny that I still liked the game and I would recommend that other people give it a shot.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Amnesia, the darky descent. Appreciated, thanks, good job, but now I know your tricks, so horror, quite like comedy, loses its effect pretty fast. You did well though. What is that new project you're teasing, you sneaky lil pingus?

 

[happyninja42]

Quacamelee. Loved the game for it's theme and aesthetic, but the level of twitchy platforming while also switching between states was too much for me. Nevermind that I have really bad luck with my controllers quickly developing a "lean" with the left joystick, making it sometimes just start moving left even when it's in neutral position, I just don't enjoy the level of zero error the game requires. But, the IDEA of playing a mystically empowered Luchadorian wrestler, fighting against the embodiment of death to rescue a loved one, and using wrestling moves to battle his way through a colorful land of the dead?! Fuck yeah I LOVE that idea. Just the game itself was a bit too much for me. I beat it, but I have no plans on trying to play it again.

Life Is Strange 1. I...fucking...LOVE that game. Very few games in the many years of me playing, are able to get a genuine emotional reaction out of me. Where I'm invested in the characters to the point where I actually feel anxious when they are put in danger. And LiS, episode 2's climax, hit me HARD. The whole game was like that for me, though that episode was the most impactful by far. It was an amazing experience to play, but I find myself uninterested in playing it ever again. The choices I made would be the ones I would make again, and the ending is a bit of a hot mess, but that's what you get when you do a time travel story (seriously, they never end well due to plot holes). But for that first run through, loved it, it hit a lot of nostalgia notes for me, as I think they did a really good job of distilling down what it is to be a teenager in a lot of ways, that are timeless. I mean, I was 38 when that game came out, and I still was having some deja vu with how the kids behaved, feeling WAY too familiar to my own teenage years. Sure, some of the slang was different, and the pop culture references were different, but the core of it, yeah...I knew kids like the cast of that game. Hell I fucking WAS one of them for a while. The music was really poignant, the art style was touching, just overall a wonderful experience. But I have zero plans on playing it again.

 

[Worgen]

But if I can defend the White Phosphorous scene for a little bit, I won't claim that it isn't railroaded or anything of the sort but the game actually displays great design when it comes to choice in other areas, normally presenting you with a scenario in a binary way but still allowing you to try other options and continuing even if you fail, so even if everything backfires they had given the player enough of an illusion of actual choice that it could be plausible to convince them that the white phosphorous was their choice possibly allowing them to feel guilty about the situation, sounds like a trick I would attempt to pull on my players as a tabletop GM, just saying.
Another angle is that it's likely that implementing a branching story from that point would have simply proved too costly and time consuming and it just wasn't feasible, while this may be perhaps too apologetic on behalf of the developers, I think it's important to acknowledge that everything would have needed to be completely different if you had a choice, and considering the other choices the game I wouldn't consider it out of the question that at some point during development this scenario was a choice rather than mandatory.

What makes the WP work is that the player not only needs to be used to normal military shooter games but also not really thinking about it at the time and it really helps if they just assume that the game is a normal bog standard shooter. But, if the player is expecting it then it really takes away the impact. Spec Ops the Line is one of those were if you have spoilers then it can really take away the impact, even if you don't know it specifically but are waiting for a bad thing it can impact it.

 

[BrawlMan]

If it makes you feel a bit better the staff at Yager hated working in that game according to the writer, that includes him, they also said that they wouldn't work in a sequel at all, not that it would be an option since the games was actually a commercial flop.

But if I can defend the White Phosphorous scene for a little bit, I won't claim that it isn't railroaded or anything of the sort but the game actually displays great design when it comes to choice in other areas, normally presenting you with a scenario in a binary way but still allowing you to try other options and continuing even if you fail, so even if everything backfires they had given the player enough of an illusion of actual choice that it could be plausible to convince them that the white phosphorous was their choice possibly allowing them to feel guilty about the situation, sounds like a trick I would attempt to pull on my players as a tabletop GM, just saying.
Another angle is that it's likely that implementing a branching story from that point would have simply proved too costly and time consuming and it just wasn't feasible, while this may be perhaps too apologetic on behalf of the developers, I think it's important to acknowledge that everything would have needed to be completely different if you had a choice, and considering the other choices the game I wouldn't consider it out of the question that at some point during development this scenario was a choice rather than mandatory.

That being said it doesn't change the fact that the trick will simply not work on everyone, and as such is flawed and we can't really spare a game from criticism simply because they possibly didn't manage to implement a plot-line so you know all criticisms are fair.

As for the 2nd point, I get it I can see why people don't like that and well that's partly why the game failed, being preached to an insulted by a game that forces you to do some of the stuff why it talks down you is certainly unappealing, but I personally don't feel like it makes it a lesser game, and I personally didn't mind mind it.

As for everything else, it's a fair assessment of the game, there's a reason why it's divisive in general being condescending to your audience isn't really a good idea, not to mention that what was promised by the marketing was a tactical shooter similar to SOCOM, which is definitely something at which the game fails by both in the fact that the shooting is mediocre and the fact that it really isn't particularly tactical and you're ability to command your squad is pretty limited anyway, but yeah promising that and doing a bait and switch with a game that ultimately puts you down for wanting that which it promised is definitely a terrible idea, I won't deny that I still liked the game and I would recommend that other people give it a shot.

I already know the behind the scenes on the writing team, but thank you. More or less proves the problems I have with the game. It has good ideas, but I feel the whole "You Bastard" was done better in other games. I do thank you for the discussion.

 

[SilentPony]

Not sure this counts 'cause I do want to play again, but I want to play it again for the first time to relive that experience:

Amnesia A Machine For Pigs

God what a great game. No replay value at all. But that first time...

 

[BrawlMan]

Devil May Cry 3 (non Switch editions) - Ever since the free style mode was added in the Switch version, there is little to no reason playing the older version anymore. Playing with a limit of 4 weapons (2 melee and 2 guns) & 1 style, shows how limiting the combat actually was back in 2005. Capcom, the next time you double dip with the HD collection, just make you add the same features in PS5/Series X as you did on the Switch.

 

[laggyteabag]

Long, linear, singleplayer games.

So pretty much anything by Naughty Dog.

I tried to replay The Last of Us 1, and Uncharted 4 recently, but I just couldn't do it. Both of these games are fantastic, and I love both of their stories, but the gameplay doesnt engage me enough, to replay something for 15h+.

I'd honestly rather just rewatch a "movie" version of these games on YouTube, which is exactly what I did with TLoU 1, after I realised that I couldn't be bothered with it, again.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Long, linear, singleplayer games.

So pretty much anything by Naughty Dog.

I tried to replay The Last of Us 1, and Uncharted 4 recently, but I just couldn't do it. Both of these games are fantastic, and I love both of their stories, but the gameplay doesnt engage me enough, to replay something for 15h+.

I'd honestly rather just rewatch a "movie" version of these games on YouTube, which is exactly what I did with TLoU 1, after I realised that I couldn't be bothered with it, again.

I like replaying long linear games but i need a LONG break between playthroughs. I get where you are coming from though.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I always feel people calling Spec Ops "hypocritical" are missing the point, like it's almost a kneejerk reaction to criticism. If you paid for it and you're playing it god forbid you're moved out of your comfort zone. And then comes the argument about beating the game by not playing it. Same deal with Michael Haneke movies. Spec Ops is playing to the gung-ho attitude that absolutely 100% of every player is going for when they boot it into it just to play hero. This is like watching Apocalypse Now and complaining about being confronted with the darkness of the human condition. How dare they make me feel anything if I'm not responsible for the things happening.

And MGS is absolute nonsense, convoluted enough that people can pick it apart for hours and pretend there's value to it.

Is it though? Even if no one explains it there’s enough relevance there to make Kojima see rather prescient in his social commentary. I think a lot of people dismiss him too quickly - in a similar knee jerk reaction as Spec Ops - because he blends real world issues with outlandish ridiculousness for entertainment value, and the thematic tone is somewhat lost in translation. If you peel the rug back there really isn’t much out there in the medium that puts half as much introspective effort into its themes.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Is it though? Even if no one explains it there’s enough relevance there to make Kojima see rather prescient in his social commentary. I think a lot of people dismiss him too quickly - in a similar knee jerk reaction as Spec Ops - because he blends real world issues with outlandish ridiculousness for entertainment value, and the thematic tone is somewhat lost in translation. If you peel the rug back there really isn’t much out there in the medium that puts half as much introspective effort into its themes.

Kojima takes simple, obvious truths and then explains and rephrases them over and over in cutscenes that aren't even interesting to look at. I don't like him. He's like this perpetually stoned-out philosophy major who's fascinated by his own train of thought and doesn't trust anyone will follow it the first 1000 times he explains it. To me he got lucky at a time when 3D graphics, in-game cutscenes and fully-voiced dialogue were making a big impression in the industry, and he's been riding that wave ever since.

 

[BrawlMan]

To me he got lucky at a time when 3D graphics, in-game cutscenes and fully-voiced dialogue were making a big impression in the industry, and he's been riding that wave ever since.

Okay, I can't stand he/she/they "got lucky" when someone accomplishes something. It stinks of x person(s) were never that good. And it smells of moving the goal post. That is the same dumb shit Movie Bob tried to pull off with Sony's success on the Playstation, and I don't buy that crap either. I am not the biggest fan of Kojima, and while you have some points (Death Stranding is a bloated mess from what I've seen) you got to respect what he did for the industry and accomplished. I don't like all of his games, but there is reason he got so far and so high, for better and worse. When you predict the shit that happens in the late 2010s...

​

You know you did something right.

You can praise for Spec-Ops "deconstruction" all you want, but without MGS2, that iteration of Spec-Ops would not exist. Ironic, because both fandoms enjoy each other's company. The same applies to other deconstruction games like Undertale and Doki Doki Literature Club. The MGS fans also get along with those fans too.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I'm also going to say that I'm never replaying Celeste ever again. Loved the game, loved the challenge (Except for the bonus area) and story and characters and art, it was a very good game, but I cannot ever play that thing again with how my hands were burning while doing it.

It wasn't like arthritis or anything, I'm not that old, but I think my time for playing these extreme execution based platformers is over. The amount of trial and error and precise sequence of moves is too much for my hands now.

And no, I refuse to bring the difficulty down because I'm old school like that.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Okay, I can't stand the he/she/they got lucky when someone accomplishes something, It stinks of x person(s) were never that good. And it smells of moving the goal post. That is the same dumb shit Movie Bob tried to pull off with Sony's success on the Playstation, and I don't buy that crap either. I am not the biggest fan of Kojima, and while you have some points (Death Stranding is a bloated mess from what I've seen) you got to respect what he did for the industry and accomplished. I don't like all of his games, but there is reason he got so far and so high, for better and worse. When you predict the shit that happens in the late 2010s...


You know you did something right.

You can praise for Spec-Ops "deconstruction" all you want, but without MGS2, that iteration of Spec-Ops would not exist. Ironic, because both fandoms enjoy each others company. The same applies to other deconstruction games like Undertale and Doki Doki Literature Club. The MGS fans also get along with those fans too.

One of the comments summed it pretty well -

When MGS2 came out, Kojima was criticized by fans for doctoring videos and images and lying to them. For instance the gameplay videos showed the player playing as Snake throughout the entire game. There was a picture released of Ravens shadow against a wall leading fans to speculate about Raven coming back. When you play the game you find a little action figure with a flashlight pointed directly at it with its shadow appearing normal sized on the wall behind it.

I remember a lot of people being mad at Kojimas deception, but look at the point he was trying to make. One of the biggest ideas presented in MGS2 is the control and dissemination of information. Media becomes tailored to audience responses. The misinformation by Kojima was done to prove just how easily we can be fooled by fake news, especially when it agrees with our bias.

He predicted today's political climate down to a T. Safe spaces, echo chambers, censorship and political correctness. BOTs shaping the narrative.
Kojima was ahead of his time and I think videogames need a creator willing to piss off his fanbase as part of the meta narrative. We can all look back now and be like...yeah Kojima..you called it.