TLOU2 Review Thread

[hanselthecaretaker]

It's a shame right? This would have really been a great game if it weren't for the core reason to play through the game....the story.

I mean the gameplay is solid, even if they didn't evolve it much from the first game. Everything works, the and controls don't fight you. So the game itself PLAYS really well.

Its...middlebrow content for an audience who's main staple is call of duty tier dude bro shooters. Not the gamer who has a lot of experience involving niche games who have been in a proverbial pecker war over gaming as art.

Isn’t it more than a bit ironic though that the game submitted to Roger Ebert to best support the “games as art” argument was predominantly not story-driven, but gameplay-driven?

Anyways, reading through several of the responses to that debate made me realize how much arrogance and naivety there is out there. One person boasted about having a PhD in philosophy (in other words he knows how to bullshit?), as if that qualifies him to make a definitive proclamation on a medium he “adores” and finds enjoyable, but then goes on to liken it to masturbation. It’s pretty irrelevant what kind of degree or holier-than-thou title anyone has when their lack of sincerity is plain as day. Well, maybe that comment really was sincere.

It’s not exactly fair or appropriate for the gaming medium to even be cast in the same light as - let alone require the approval or seal of legitimacy - of any other. Videogames haven’t really hit their stride yet in terms of showing what makes them artistically unique, but games like The Last of Us Part 2 can at least show the medium is stepping outside its comfort zone.

Two of my favorite sections so far had nothing to even do with the main theme. The first was the chaos involving Ellie’s mask breaking and Dina discovering her immunity, and the fever-pitched escape from the subway. They really nailed the frantic intensity and the music driving it was perfect. Nothing I’ve watched from an apocalyptic zombie flick felt like playing that heart pounding sequence, and the relief of seeing daylight again when you make it outside.

The other was Joel surprising Ellie with the museum. I myself was wondering along with her what it could be, then walking around exploring, listening to their conversations, simply having an enjoyable time in such a different atmosphere, and also feeling her inexperience and youth through the controls was an interesting and welcomed contrast from the first sequence not so long beforehand.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Two of my favorite sections so far had nothing to even do with the main theme. The first was the chaos involving Ellie’s mask breaking and Dina discovering her immunity, and the fever-pitched escape from the subway. They really nailed the frantic intensity and the music driving it was perfect. Nothing I’ve watched from an apocalyptic zombie flick felt like playing that heart pounding sequence, and the relief of seeing daylight again when you make it outside.

The other was Joel surprising Ellie with the museum. I myself was wondering along with her what it could be, then walking around exploring, listening to their conversations, simply having an enjoyable time in such a different atmosphere, and also feeling her inexperience and youth through the controls was an interesting and welcomed contrast from the first sequence not so long beforehand.

Funny you mention these two examples because these are sections of the game that behave much more in the way the first game brought forth it's story and character relationships. These moments, I agree, are great and I think that's why this game has so much hate. You can see these moments that are more of what people loved about the first game, ruined by the rest of the game that just shits on these moments in contrast.

Not to mention that the revenge archs are just completely written in an half-assed way. Abby's revenge is rushed, and Ellie's revenge is forced to the point where not even Ellie really ever believes in it.

The scene you mention with Joel and Ellie, should have been followed up with Ellie waking in a fit of rage or something. I don't ever believe Ellie's motivations, and that's the key problem here. Her motivation and her actions make no sense and as a result it taints some very very good moments in the game elsewhere.


As for the rest of your points, I think the fact that we can all sit here and have 20 page discussions about a game prove games ARE art. Each of us has differing opinions and each of us appreciate the game in different ways right? Which is what happens in art. People look at a Jackson Pollack painting and take different things from it, and that's what the magic of art does for people.

Thus discussions like this prove that gaming is an art form. Right?

The Last of Us 2 might not be liked by some, and other may love it. It's all about how you respond to what's given to you here. Though I did not like this game, I would gladly call it an art piece.

 

[faeyr]

Not exactly a review, but a possibly relevant take from Jim Sterling:

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Not exactly a review, but a possibly relevant take from Jim Sterling:

I’m not going to sit through over 20 minutes of Jim’s schtick (although the bobblehead test was kinda funny/true), but guessing this would sum it up and possibly add more context behind how blown out of proportion yet another stupid comparison ended up being.

Interesting to note, both Druckmann and Schreier are Jewish themselves. There’s also a whole other massive thread topic on another forum about this that people can make of what they wish if interested.

Yet another example of thousands that show how right Kojima was with the codec stuff in MGS2.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Not exactly a review, but a possibly relevant take from Jim Sterling:

Haha, TLOU2 wishes it was Gremlins 2: The New Batch.

Yet another example of thousands that show how right Kojima was with the codec stuff in MGS2.

I still remember way back when I first played MGS2 when it released and I was like the patriots are the good guys.

---

A few random TLOU2 thoughts:

-From Youtube movie I watched that included a decent amount of shown combat, the AI does seem pretty dumb, not using cover and I recall one guy just walking straight at the player shooting. I feel like less combat encounters with higher stakes (tougher and smarter enemies) would make more sense in many games. The amount of danger in these trips to get revenge seem totally not worth it because the chances of death along the way is just so high. At least TLOU1 had the whole "save the world" aspect going for it as to why Joel and Ellie were traveling across the country. You could at least replace many combat encounters with legit good environment puzzling.

-Just a little thing I noticed in the Youtube movie was the player flamethrower-ing an infected setting it on fire and the infected falls in the water yet the fire doesn't extinguish. I feel like games in general should focus more so on the world behaving like real worlds vs just trying to look like real worlds. The very static nature of the world in the new God of War was far more apparent because the player had more abilities than TLOU2's standard cover shooting/stealth.

-A way this story could've worked and focused the game on the lie from the end of TLOU1 was that both Ellie and Abby look to find the Fireflies again. Then, the climatic scene involves both groups finding the Fireflies and basically having a super tense and awkward sorta "dinner" scene where it's revealed their pasts and connections. Something like that bar scene from Inglourious Bastards with tension constantly building and you can have the player choose a few dialog options to determine whether the tension explodes into violence or quenches it.

 

[Houseman]

I remember some industry event where he criticized sexy women in video games and said that he didn't want his daughters to grow up having "role models" with sexy bodies like Quiet, Cortana, and Ayane.


So what kind of role models are Ellie and Abby?

 

[Dalisclock]

Spoiler

I don't exactly consider what happened to Abby to be a "happy ending".

All of her friends are dead, aside from some teenager that she has only known for a few months. She was abducted, likely tortured, forced into slavery, and god knows what else. She tried to escape, and was captured and crucified, then left for dead - until Ellie found her, and promptly beat the shit out of her, stabbed her a bunch of times, and she is now floating in the middle of some sea, covered in cuts, bruises, and exhausted, whilst also needing to take care of some kid who likely feels just as rough.

Sure, there is the potential that she might find the last of the Fireflies, but "good" definitely feels a little too rosy for where she is at, right now.

So what you're saying is that TLOU2 is even more bleak then the original is?

 

[BrawlMan]

ACG wants your voice heard. Preferably if you actually played and completed the game. His review will be up soon.

 

[laggyteabag]

So what you're saying is that TLOU2 is even more bleak then the original is?

Well, sure.

The first game was pretty miserable, but it was dotted with these pretty light-hearted moments throughout, and the game always had "the light at the end of the tunnel", with the hope that when you took Ellie to the Fireflies, they could create a vaccine.

In The Last of Us 2, that metaphorical light has been completely snuffed out, and it is made very clear that it will never come back. All that is left is pretty much just sadness, grief, regret, anger, and pain - and a whole lot of each of them. Not to mention that the world of the game is seemingly even more fucked up than it was before.

Even the flashbacks to happier times, are recontextualised with misery.

This isn't a happy game.

At all.

 

[Dalisclock]

Well, sure.

The first game was pretty miserable, but it was dotted with these pretty light-hearted moments throughout, and the game always had "the light at the end of the tunnel", with the hope that when you took Ellie to the Fireflies, they could create a vaccine.

In The Last of Us 2, that metaphorical light has been completely snuffed out, and it is made very clear that it will never come back. All that is left is pretty much just sadness, grief, regret, anger, and pain - and a whole lot of each of them. Not to mention that the world of the game is seemingly even more fucked up than it was before.

Even the flashbacks to happier times, are recontextualised with misery.

This isn't a happy game.

At all.

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that. OTOH, there's nothing wrong with a dark storyline/atmosphere(I love me some lovecraft) but at some point the misery just becomes a bit much. It's like The Road. It's arguably a good book but damn if it isn't depressing as fuck.

I didn't particularly think TLOU needed a follow up either.

 

[Hawki]

The Road. It's arguably a good book but damn if it isn't depressing as fuck.

You're a man of my own heart.

 

[BrawlMan]

It's like The Road. It's arguably a good book but damn if it isn't depressing as fuck.

That is basically what TLOU is. And The Road is just the Lone Wolf & Cub + Mad Max. Never read the book, but saw the film once. It was okay. Give me Mad Max, Fist of the Northstar, Double Dragon, Violent Storm, or Fallout for a post-apoc story over that.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Haha, TLOU2 wishes it was Gremlins 2: The New Batch.


I still remember way back when I first played MGS2 when it released and I was like the patriots are the good guys.

---

A few random TLOU2 thoughts:

-From Youtube movie I watched that included a decent amount of shown combat, the AI does seem pretty dumb, not using cover and I recall one guy just walking straight at the player shooting. I feel like less combat encounters with higher stakes (tougher and smarter enemies) would make more sense in many games. The amount of danger in these trips to get revenge seem totally not worth it because the chances of death along the way is just so high. At least TLOU1 had the whole "save the world" aspect going for it as to why Joel and Ellie were traveling across the country. You could at least replace many combat encounters with legit good environment puzzling.

-Just a little thing I noticed in the Youtube movie was the player flamethrower-ing an infected setting it on fire and the infected falls in the water yet the fire doesn't extinguish. I feel like games in general should focus more so on the world behaving like real worlds vs just trying to look like real worlds. The very static nature of the world in the new God of War was far more apparent because the player had more abilities than TLOU2's standard cover shooting/stealth.

-A way this story could've worked and focused the game on the lie from the end of TLOU1 was that both Ellie and Abby look to find the Fireflies again. Then, the climatic scene involves both groups finding the Fireflies and basically having a super tense and awkward sorta "dinner" scene where it's revealed their pasts and connections. Something like that bar scene from Inglourious Bastards with tension constantly building and you can have the player choose a few dialog options to determine whether the tension explodes into violence or quenches it.

I’m only playing on normal since I wasn’t sure how much time I’d want to beat my head against cheap enemies or unreasonable odds if the game was much bigger than the original. While I’ve noticed quite a few times where the AI will be pretty clueless at proximities when you’re under cover (like grass or behind a barrier), this time they don’t seem to all swarm you the second you’re discovered if you can silence that first one early enough, and it’s exciting to run for cover in bigger maps when you hear gunshots and bullets hitting nearby (playing with 3D headphones and the sound design is impressive, even if not truly 3D audio). I also haven’t run into the problem with the last game of clickers making a beeline for you randomly even if you’re completely still, and alone.

I played around with them a bit and they do some things better. It seems normal humans typically won’t let you advance if you just try to rush them for a melee kill. They’ll shoot until they’re out or you’re dead. Also in my experience they use cover pretty regularly when there is some (which is almost always), although yeah they do go out in the open and seem to meander in some cases, even during firefights. One thing I like over the original is the infected feel more relentless. Like they’ll claw their way towards you even with their legs blown off. Makes it feel more like a zombie enemy and that you need to be more thorough with their dispatching. I haven’t set anyone on fire near water sources but it seems like it doesn’t last as long in the rain via Molotov; maybe I’ll try timing it.

I’m not very far yet; just started Day 2 last night as I only play an hour or so a night, but I’m generally having more fun with it than the original. The pacing is the only significant downside for me so far. I like being able to dive into cover and have full Max Payne 3 style aiming when prone. Also you can do a dodge out of prone which is neat.

There are more opportunities to set up traps and bait enemies, have them fight against each other, and of course mobility is better now too. Being able to break glass windows to access buildings or cabinets is something so simple (I think?) that it should be standard in these types of games. I wish the rope was used more though as it’s pretty cool.

 

[BrawlMan]

I remember some industry event where he criticized sexy women in video games and said that he didn't want his daughters to grow up having "role models" with sexy bodies like Quiet, Cortana, and Ayane.

Druckman is really far up his own ass. I hate it when people try to force a role model on characters that are not clearly meant to be role models. Not that any of the three would care about what he has to say. Two out of the three are assassins. Not to mention, the two assassins have a really bad past. both you're supposed to find some sympathy for, but I never was sympathetic nor liked Ayane. Ayane with her snooty, bitchy, attitude would scof and mock him. Quiet would obviously not say much, but her gesture will be pretty much one big screw you. Assuming she wouldn't just kill him. Cortana would just give a yeah whatever attitude and go on about her day. At least she did something positive and was on the good guys side.

 

[BrawlMan]

Here is Pat's impression of the first five hours.

 

[Dreiko]

Not exactly a review, but a possibly relevant take from Jim Sterling:

Jim: *puts on makeup and wig and purple regalia* "ROISTEN, ROISTEN, I pwned a casual with my high level videogame opinions, these peasants are not real gamers, fan my chortles Roisten, this has excited my jawls! Oh my, they like games that I deem inferior, they are so casual, their games are not real games. " -ironic skit poking fun at "real gamers" being elitist

Also Jim: "Your game isn't real art, movies are art, books are art. You like/were affected by this game more than Schindler's List? Your taste is wrong, casual art fans! Go home peasants." - not ironic at all


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

 

[Casual Shinji]

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that. OTOH, there's nothing wrong with a dark storyline/atmosphere(I love me some lovecraft) but at some point the misery just becomes a bit much. It's like The Road. It's arguably a good book but damn if it isn't depressing as fuck.

I didn't particularly think TLOU needed a follow up either.

The funny thing is that TLoU2 has the happiest most wholesome section out of either game. It's like 30 minutes of pure magical, loveliness. But yeah, before and after that it's pretty much all misery. And worst of all, it's misery that's just super in love wih itself.

Still, that one section is actually worth it to play through the game. Or at least worth it to play up to that point.

 

[BrawlMan]

The funny thing is that TLoU2 has the happiest most wholesome section out of either game. It's like 30 minutes of pure magical, loveliness. But yeah, before and after that it's pretty much all misery. And worst of all, it's misery that's just super in love wih itself.

Still, that one section is actually worth it to play through the game. Or at least worth it to play up to that point.

If that's the case, I rather not waste $60 on something just for 30 minutes. But if you enjoyed it okay then.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I’m only playing on normal since I wasn’t sure how much time I’d want to beat my head against cheap enemies or unreasonable odds if the game was much bigger than the original. While I’ve noticed quite a few times where the AI will be pretty clueless at proximities when you’re under cover (like grass or behind a barrier), this time they don’t seem to all swarm you the second you’re discovered if you can silence that first one early enough, and it’s exciting to run for cover in bigger maps when you hear gunshots and bullets hitting nearby (playing with 3D headphones and the sound design is impressive, even if not truly 3D audio). I also haven’t run into the problem with the last game of clickers making a beeline for you randomly even if you’re completely still, and alone.

I played around with them a bit and they do some things better. It seems normal humans typically won’t let you advance if you just try to rush them for a melee kill. They’ll shoot until they’re out or you’re dead. Also in my experience they use cover pretty regularly when there is some (which is almost always), although yeah they do go out in the open and seem to meander in some cases, even during firefights. One thing I like over the original is the infected feel more relentless. Like they’ll claw their way towards you even with their legs blown off. Makes it feel more like a zombie enemy and that you need to be more thorough with their dispatching. I haven’t set anyone on fire near water sources but it seems like it doesn’t last as long in the rain via Molotov; maybe I’ll try timing it.

There are more opportunities to set up traps and bait enemies, have them fight against each other, and of course mobility is better now too. Being able to break glass windows to access buildings or cabinets is something so simple (I think?) that it should be standard in these types of games. I wish the rope was used more though as it’s pretty cool.

I just kinda find it funny that I'm guessing clothes will get wet from water (it was in the very 1st Uncharted IIRC) but fire isn't really affected. It was cool and actually really useful that in Ghost Recon Future Soldier you could stop, drop, and roll to put out fire.

I don't think I really "get" the 3D audio over just surround sound (I don't have any 3D audio hardware) as when I played MGO tons, all I needed was audio going through my 5.1 receiver and through only the front 3 speakers (as running cord for the rears just wasn't worth it IMO) and I could tell exactly where an another player was just based on sound.

That rope stuff is cool but seems like mainly wasted effort because you could use that for some cool environmental puzzle sections over just the occasion rope swing sections. I wonder how much of that work was done with Uncharted 4 because the physics on the tether line on the Jeep was more than it really needed.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Here is Pat's impression of the first five hours.

One thing I don't really agree with is not being able to go into something fairly because of stuff you heard (and various other preconceptions). Not to say that you can go into anything completely unbiased but I'm not going to go into something thinking it sucks and not give it a chance or vice verse. Sure my biases might have me unconciously lower or raise my final score of something by maybe a point, but it's not going to greatly influence my enjoyment of something majorly. Though with how rampant confirmation bias is among most people, I can see it being an issue with a lot of people.

---

One last little thing I forgot to mention in both my "review" posts from watching the Youtube movie. There is one little dialog exchange I laughed at between 2 characters about platforming in fact. One character jumps and is barely able to make the jump and has to pull themselves up and the other character says something along the lines of "you can jump farther with a running start". I found it funny because these games don't have real platforming like in Uncharted you can make a long jump from a standstill. Games in general not having real platforming just disappoints me.