National Guard called into Minneapolis

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ObsidianJones

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So, in the wake of this, a young man named Elijah McClain died when a concerned citizen saw McClain ""put his hands up".

Because that's enough to have the cops called on people nowdays.


But that wouldn't illustrate how "black houses matter" only focuses on the "black houses".
There's a reason you quoted only that part. I specifically put in that post that you quoted that all anyone is asking is for everyone to be treated equally.

Remove the analogy and Ponder this. We're at the 79th page of this thread. Posters have up and down said in general and specifically to you that the only goal of Black Lives Matter is to be policed equally, fairly, and not have every action warrant a vicious response.

You hate the protests? You hate the riots? You wish them both to stop? It will stop when people start actually listening to the words we are saying instead of denying what we're saying verbatim, stating "You really mean this", and then brushing us aside because they don't want to hear what we're actually asking for.

Because if you state we only want focus on black people one more time when I've personally told you more times than I can count that all people want is equal policing without the fear of abuse, not to mention the other umpteenth times other people have stated that in the 79 other pages of this thread, you have proved that civil communication is worthless. And you have proven the need for endless protests and what else comes from it.

Because that's what people do when others do their damnedest not to listen.
 

Houseman

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I specifically put in that post that you quoted that all anyone is asking is for everyone to be treated equally.
But a slogan like "All Lives Matter" wouldn't be asking for everyone to be treated equally? Why's that?

You hate the protests? You hate the riots? You wish them both to stop?
No. See, I don't think you understand what I've been saying this whole time.

It will stop when people start actually listening to the words we are saying instead of denying what we're saying verbatim, stating "You really mean this", and then brushing us aside because they don't want to hear what we're actually asking for.
That seems like a double standard, because didn't someone in this topic claim that there's an implicit "too" after "Black Lives Matter"? Isn't that saying "We really mean this"? How is it okay when one side does it but not the other? "You can't tell us what our slogan means! But your All Lives Matter slogan is racist!"

If you (plural) don't want people to tell you that "you really mean this", maybe stop trying to tell other people that "you really mean this".

"Black Lives Matter" was an unfortunate and short-sighted slogan, that's all. If your slogan requires "implicit words", then you've failed to make a good slogan. There are better slogans that get to the heart of the problem.

Because if you state we only want focus on black people one more time when I've personally told you more times than I can count that all people want is equal policing without the fear of abuse
Sorry, but your slogan is "Black Lives Matter" not "Equal Policing For All!"
If you need paragraphs of explanations in order to make it clear that "no, actually, what we really want is this other thing...", it's a bad slogan.

The slogan is bad.
The message is confusing.
If you constantly have to clear up misconceptions about what your movement is about, you've failed, and need to rebrand.

Protesting harder is just going to cement those misconceptions in the minds of bystanders and your opponents until it really does turn into a race war.

If that's Black Hoses Matter, All Hoses Matter is shutting off the water.
Sorry, I don't know what are you talking about. Who said anything about hoses?
 

Houseman

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Sorry, but your example is so out of touch with reality that I couldn't care less for orthography.
Wait. Actually, I DID write "hoses". YOU were the one who wrote "hoses", and then you made a FAKE quote making it seem like I wrote "houses" instead of "hoses".

So now, to answer your edited comment, after you fixed your typos:


If that's Black Houses Matter, All Houses Matter is shutting off the water.
All Houses Matter would be fighting all the fires without regard to what color the house is (what a concept!) Or maybe it would be stopping the arsonist responsible for setting the fires.
 

CaitSeith

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All Houses Matter would be fighting all the fires without regard to what color the house is (what a concept!) Or maybe it would be stopping the arsonist responsible for setting the fires.
And that's the part that it's out of touch with reality; the only actions All Lives Matter have done is to hamper BLM, which is like cutting off the firehouse... I mean firehose!
 

Houseman

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Because it's a distraction. It's a call for your leaky toilet to be considered equal to the house down the street being on fire. It's a thinly-veiled attempt to devalue the lives of black people.
What makes you think that? Is it the word "All"? The word "Lives"? The word "Matter"? Or are there some secret, implicit, invisible words that I can't see?

Why can't "All Lives Matter" just mean "All Lives Matter", and not be some sinister, racist, conspiracy, dogwhistle?

the only actions All Lives Matter have done is to hamper BLM
"All Lives Matter" isn't a movement. It's not a group. It doesn't have a website. BLM has a website. Everyone knows you have to have a website to be official.

It's three words that people often use in response to three other words.

If you're talking about some other "movement", it's not what I'm talking about.
 

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As most protesters were leaving, the scene got far more confrontational. Deputies fired what appeared to be tear gas, according to photographer Brian Feinzimer, who is on assignment for LAist.

Our reporter Josie Huang reported getting hit with what she also believed to be tear gas:

Huang also documented the injuries of protesters:

As well as other members of the press caught in the response by the deputies:

The aggressive move by deputies to clear the area near the station of protesters came after several hours of very peaceful protest. Guardado's family began the march shortly before 2 p.m. asking those who came out today to keep things calm.

At a news conference Saturday, Sheriff Alex Villanueva offered his condolences to the Guardado family. Sheriff's officials said the shooting is under investigation.
They also offered details about the incident, saying that when deputies arrived at the auto body shop where Guardado worked as a secutiry guard, Guardado produced the weapon and ran onto the shop's property. At that point, one deputy fired six rounds, striking Guardado in the upper torso.
According to Captain Kurt Wegener:
  • A modified .40 caliber gun was recovered at the scene
  • The weapon had 13 live rounds
  • The weapon does not appear to have been fired during the incident
  • Guardado was not wearing a security uniform or a gunbelt
His family has disputed the claim that he was armed, and questioned why the deputy fired his weapon in the first place. It was unclear why deputies were at that location Thursday night, although in their Saturday news conference, sheriff's officials said there'd been another shooting at that address on June 7 and, at that time, weapons and narcotics were found. A number of businesses share the location.
 
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ObsidianJones

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But a slogan like "All Lives Matter" wouldn't be asking for everyone to be treated equally? Why's that?

No. See, I don't think you understand what I've been saying this whole time.

That seems like a double standard, because didn't someone in this topic claim that there's an implicit "too" after "Black Lives Matter"? Isn't that saying "We really mean this"? How is it okay when one side does it but not the other? "You can't tell us what our slogan means! But your All Lives Matter slogan is racist!"

If you (plural) don't want people to tell you that "you really mean this", maybe stop trying to tell other people that "you really mean this".

"Black Lives Matter" was an unfortunate and short-sighted slogan, that's all. If your slogan requires "implicit words", then you've failed to make a good slogan. There are better slogans that get to the heart of the problem.

Sorry, but your slogan is "Black Lives Matter" not "Equal Policing For All!"
If you need paragraphs of explanations in order to make it clear that "no, actually, what we really want is this other thing...", it's a bad slogan.

The slogan is bad.
The message is confusing.
If you constantly have to clear up misconceptions about what your movement is about, you've failed, and need to rebrand.

Protesting harder is just going to cement those misconceptions in the minds of bystanders and your opponents until it really does turn into a race war.
Firstly? How about when the community has stated multiple times before that these sort of things were happening in the Black Community prior, they were met with the same brush offs?

1.) "That Can't be True because it doesn't happen to me"

2.) "What did you do to earn such treatment?"

3.) "Be ok with being dehumanized on the light end and/or brutalized on the bad end, because just comply to get by"

None of these things are ok. When these things happen in the black community, certain people look for any reason why dehumanizing treatment and/or police brutality is ok. Look at the violence in Chicago, we don't see the whole picture, these cops have a dangerous jobs and they have to get home to their families.

And? It's not dangerous to be completely stripped of any authority to defend yourself against a heavily armed and organized force? We don't have families to go home to? The answer is just to hope and pray you don't get a cop who secretly has an agenda or because you're a soft target and they have a quota, that's just basically the end of your life as an hopeful American because your officer needs to make a certain number of felony arrests?

The accounts that we given in the past (hereby proven correct with the proliferation of video) mattered then, but no one believed because it was our word against cops. And more and more cops come out and say a lot of arrests are BS. But you need to arrest people to say that you arrested a lot of people... so your budget will be high enough to get raises and get more stuff.

People's lives are being traded for job security. Families are crushed under it. And another generation has no more mobility out of the conditions they were born in. Why say Black Lives Matter? Because they do. Even if Black lives are cheap in the United States. Probably the cheapest lives there are, besides Native Americans.

If your main source of contention is that is naming, then this is a meaningless road to go down. It does not solve any of the problems that requires the group, no matter of the name. It is the hackneyed joke of over-bureaucracy of tabling a committee to discuss the naming of the task force that will be assembled to address the issues of the terrible plight that's coming our way. It's a BS time waster that people are fighting over instead of doing what they can to handle the damn crisis.

Plus, there are literally millions of people every day protesting, tweeting, and trying to spread the word about the treatment of blacks across the globe. People are not as dumb as you paint them out to be, because there's a rainbow of people standing up and saying "Yeah. We get it. Black Lives Matter. Of course they matter. They shouldn't be victimized so easily because they are a soft target". The only people who aren't getting it are people who don't want to get it. They are apart of the problem. And adjusting our collective outrage to suit them is exactly what they've been making us do for years. That Kowtow stops.

And you're going again telling us what the problem is. My problem? My problem is that if I go out in the street at night, I have a much more chance being brutalized by the hands of the police than I do anyone else in this country. Bar None. My problem is that I actually worry that any time I need to call the cops, how would I survive the situation? Every time I take a picture, I freaking wonder if this is what they are going to use on the news to say 'Another tragic accident today...'

I am not a tragic accident. I am a human being. I do not wish harm on anyone, I do not want even my enemies hurt. I wish everyone to live in a peaceful co-existence. But I have strikes 1-3 put onto me because of how I look. That makes me measure every aspect of my life, to where I eat, where I go, and what I allow to happen to me. And I have my peers, supposedly people of my internet community often telling me to let that happen because instead of changing the cops, it's best to let me deal with the subjugation that has traditionally been placed on my people.

You can not tell me that's short sighted because it's treatment that we've had for Generations. It's conceptual for you. It's the only lives we've known. That our lives do not matter. That who cares what he will say, it's his word against ours. That if I end up dead at the hands of a police officer, that people would try to comb through my media accounts to see me in an unfavorable situation and use that as justification on why I had to die years or even decades in the future.

You're telling a race that has been marginalized for their entire time in this country that they need to pick a better name because it doesn't sit well with you. How can you be that blind to not even see this is what everything is all about?
 

ObsidianJones

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I hate every fucking cop so much.
No. We don't. There are cops out there trying to do what they wanted to do as children. Make the place better for all.

Hating blindly doesn't do anything but keep us where we are. We can never afford that, even if it's easier to hate. In fact, it's the very reason we rise above because it is so much easier to hate.

I get the anger. But not every cop. Hate those who do wrong. Support those who try to make this world a better place.

What makes you think that? Is it the word "All"? The word "Lives"? The word "Matter"? Or are there some secret, implicit, invisible words that I can't see?

Why can't "All Lives Matter" just mean "All Lives Matter", and not be some sinister, racist, conspiracy, dogwhistle?

"All Lives Matter" isn't a movement. It's not a group. It doesn't have a website. BLM has a website. Everyone knows you have to have a website to be official.

It's three words that people often use in response to three other words.

If you're talking about some other "movement", it's not what I'm talking about.
Here ya go
 

Houseman

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Firstly? How about when the community has stated multiple times before that these sort of things were happening in the Black Community prior, they were met with the same brush offs?
What, exactly, are you replying to? Are you defending that BLM is a good slogan?
Are you responding to the first sentence, that "But a slogan like "All Lives Matter" wouldn't be asking for everyone to be treated equally? Why's that?"

Please only quote the part you're responding to so as to avoid confusion. Just highlight it and hit the "reply" button that pops up right at the end of the highlighted text. It'll make a new quote with only the text you've highlighted.

I'm going to assume you're responding to that first sentence: You didn't have a slogan back then. There wasn't a popular movement back then.
Your logic seems to be "nobody paid attention before we had a slogan, therefore, the slogan is the best slogan and no other slogan would have worked".
That doesn't prove that "All Lives Matter" wouldn't have worked as a better slogan, or wouldn't have been asking for equal treatment.

If your main source of contention is that is naming, then this is a meaningless road to go down. It does not solve any of the problems that requires the group, no matter of the name.
I think the current name actually creates/entrenches more racism, and a better name could accomplish the same results with none of the drawbacks, that's all.

You're telling a race that has been marginalized for their entire time in this country that they need to pick a better name because it doesn't sit well with you.
Yes, and if you were to directly respond to the points I've made, it should become clear as to why.
I'm seeing a pattern here, were the people arguing with me seem to be avoiding my actual arguments...

Free-tier websites don't count. Neither do facebook groups, while we're at it.
 

Revnak

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No. We don't. There are cops out there trying to do what they wanted to do as children. Make the place better for all.

Hating blindly doesn't do anything but keep us where we are. We can never afford that, even if it's easier to hate. In fact, it's the very reason we rise above because it is so much easier to hate.

I get the anger. But not every cop. Hate those who do wrong. Support those who try to make this world a better place.
Then where the fuck are they in that crowd of cops brutalizing a crowd mad that one of their compatriots murdered another black man?
 
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ObsidianJones

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What, exactly, are you replying to? Are you defending that BLM is a good slogan?
Are you responding to the first sentence, that "But a slogan like "All Lives Matter" wouldn't be asking for everyone to be treated equally? Why's that?"

Please only quote the part you're responding to so as to avoid confusion. Just highlight it and hit the "reply" button that pops up right at the end of the highlighted text. It'll make a new quote with only the text you've highlighted.

I'm going to assume you're responding to that first sentence: You didn't have a slogan back then. There wasn't a popular movement back then.
Your logic seems to be "nobody paid attention before we had a slogan, therefore, the slogan is the best slogan and no other slogan would have worked".
That doesn't prove that "All Lives Matter" wouldn't have worked as a better slogan, or wouldn't have been asking for equal treatment.

I think the current name actually creates/entrenches more racism, and a better name could accomplish the same results with none of the drawbacks, that's all.

Yes, and if you were to directly respond to the points I've made, it should become clear as to why.
I'm seeing a pattern here, were the people arguing with me seem to be avoiding my actual arguments...

Free-tier websites don't count. Neither do facebook groups, while we're at it.
I won't. I've stated before I'm tired of doing that. This is what I'll be doing. Or a snip. Due to the overarching differences in the way this quoting system and character count in these new forums. I've had endless headaches with them that I've stopped. I will always address things in the order I received them.

Now, addressing what you've said about All Lives Matter being a better slogan, you've not proved that it would be. In fact, the majority of your statements stems from your feelings.

How do I know that the message hasn't gotten lost to most people? About 2000 cities saw protests, drawing people from all walks of life to support the movement. 3 Continents and counting have protests in solidarity of the movement, all expressing the same idea and mindset espoused by BLM. The United Nations, in a rare uniramous vote, decided to spearhead efforts to address systematic racism against people of African Descent.

You're worried about a name, a slogan that's gotten progress like nothing else in the world prior? When positive, forward motion is being achieved right now due to the efforts of the cause and in the name that you detest so much.

Here's the truth of the matter. There are people now who are bound and determined to be on their side no matter what. Fine. That is your choice as a human being. If literal millions of human beings can get it to the point that they will march for a man that isn't even their fellow citizen, maybe there's nothing wrong with the name or the slogan. Because the 'confusion' normally are from people who already go on and on that nothing is wrong to begin with.

Millions see the problem. The people are speaking out about change now. And if that brings about a race war? Straight out, that's because people were deseparately looking for an excuse to start one. Anything would do.

Look at what you're arguing. A name would be enough to start death and destruction. That's on the people who are willing to go to war for something so mind numbingly petty, that to look at us and say "you need to do something before they get angry" is a laughable thought.

Native Americans didn't conduct revenge murders for the Redskins or the Indians.

Blacks haven't banned together for purges due to depictions of Uncle Ben, Aunt Jermima, or the fact that the Confederate Flag still exists.

I do not remember the latin warfare started because of Speedy Gonzalez.

Because rational people don't think that way. Minorities still have to go to schools that celebrate Robert E Lee, and instead of picking up guns because that's the last straw, they go to Change.org.

If you want to spend your energy on something, spend it on those people who would love to go have a race war over the name black lives matter. Because those are the unhinged ones. We're tired of changing for the comfort of others. That's done. And let the world see if people pick up firearms because of a concept that Blacks shouldn't be brutalized for no reason at all. Let that be the final nail in the BS PR that America was anything but a corrupt, broken down country that just was very good at singing it's own praises. Those of us on the fringes knew that since we were born. If certain segments of America desires to show their asses because they can not stand being questioned, I invite everyone to get a front row seat.

Let America take itself down more pegs.
 
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MrCalavera

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Could you cite some verses about rape or adultery that Jefferson violated?
Nope. I don't care. From what i remember from sunday school days, the lines between rape and adultery are already blured(good ol times when women didn't have any pesky agency), and the sin of adultery generally covers all out-of-wedlock activities. Is why the church is so adamant about the istitution of marriage, i think...
I am however open to be proved wrong with a Bible quote, BUT again, I don't care if it could theoretically be justified by the Bible. Lots of things can be. It wouldn't make me think of Jefferson better, so what's the point?

Because if you were in Jefferson's situation, you probably would have done the exact same things he did.
Looking at current events, do you think cops need more empathy or less?
Oh, PLEASE. If i was a german in the 30s there's a big chance i'd buy into NSDAP rhetoric, and would feel relieved about all these pesky semites and other undesirables being removed. That wouldn't justify my stance.

Looking at current Fast Food panic, i think what american cops need is more mockery.
 

Houseman

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Now, addressing what you've said about All Lives Matter being a better slogan, you've not proved that it would be. In fact, the majority of your statements stems from your feelings.
My reasons as to why I feel it would be a better slogan are based on the questions I've asked and the points I've made. Nobody has yet responded to the questions I asked in #1,548 or the points is #1583. You may have quoted the latter, but your reply seemed to have be a disconnected rant.

So my arguments stand uncontested.

You're worried about a name, a slogan that's gotten progress like nothing else in the world prior? When positive, forward motion is being achieved right now due to the efforts of the cause and in the name that you detest so much.
I merely see room for improvement.

Look at what you're arguing. A name would be enough to start death and destruction.
So, is it just "a name"? Is it petty? Or is it a movement where 2000 cities saw protests in 3 continents and counting, with United Nations support behind it?

You can't say that it's a small, petty thing and then say that it's this big huge thing in the next breath. It's either one or the other.

If it's petty, and "just a name", then it shouldn't matter if that name was changed to something racially neutral, right? Because some many millions of people "get it", it wouldn't change what they're fighting for, right? It would only help to avoid confusion for those who don't, right? It can only be an improvement, right?

And if that brings about a race war? Straight out, that's because people were deseparately looking for an excuse to start one. Anything would do.
Sometimes the wiser path is NOT to give people excuses, no matter how desperately they're looking for one. Worst case scenario, it still happens regardless of what you do. If it does, you can say, with a clean conscience, that you had nothing to do with it. Otherwise, you have blood on your hands. Best case scenario, nobody gets hurt anymore than they already are.
 

Houseman

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If the only reason they had suspicion in their hearts because it was a black child running, sorry, what I posted comes into play. Due Process isn't eliminated by Stop and Frisk, especially if the only suspicion is dependent on Dark Kid Running. 'Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act' trumps 'Stop and Frisk'.
By the way, California's Proposition 209, which would restates that civil rights act, might be repealed soon

The text to be repealed includes, but is not limited to:
"The State shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting."


So BLM is being encouraged to vote for discrimination, instead of treating everyone equally.

My MSPaint picture is looking pretty accurate right about now...
 
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