White Actors Giving up Long-Standing, Non-White Roles

[SilentPony]

Which is a fair point. That said, I've had conversations with people of color who are quite passionate about seeing more non-white actors getting work and don't have a lot of trust in the system to not be racist about it and... Basically, I get where they're coming from. Everybody draws the line differently and at some point we're going to have to do something about it.

Oh for sure. Get more people of color and the LGBTQXYZ+9 crowd into voice acting. The more the merrier, yadda yadda. I just don't think its doing black people any favors to fire white voice actors from shows because of the color of the character they're voicing.
I would simply put it as hire the right voice actor for the roll, and of course have enough minority voice actors that shows are spoiled for choice on who to cast, so that its only the actor and their talent to consider rather than their race/gender.
And if a white dude gets cast as a black character, then that's the voice they wanted for the show. And vice versa. Cast black voice actors as white characters if that's the voice you want.

 

[ObsidianJones]

I think his point is more youre immersion in a story isn't broken based on the color of the voice actor vs their role. I dont think people watch, I dunno, Avatar and say "Nope Aang's voice isn't Asian enough, totally ruins the show" Or watch MLP and think "Why are they voiced by people and not horses?" Anime often have women voicing little boys, but we don't say "Not little boy enough"
That if the voice acting is good, the race/gender of the actor shouldn't matter.

To be fair, I do a little cognitive dissonance with that.

I know we're not hearing english. We're hearing their language. But their language in the way that we would understand it if we were native speakers.

The best example of this would be in Anime. where they make anyone from Kansai region of Japan sound southern for Americans.

And sidebar, I knew a few geeks from the south who tended to like those characters more because they sounded like them growing up. So there are a lot of ways to look at this.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Or if you're trying to deal with themes of race and politics, maybe cast people from the relevant ethnicities.
People forget that filmmaking and animation are collaborative arts. Actors, good ones anyway, don't just show up, read their lines, hit their marks and leave. They bring their own experiences to the role. Like, let us say, and why not, that I get hired to direct an animated piece that will feature some Native characters among the main cast. I'd probably still cast Native actors anyway for 2 reasons.

The writers are the ones that decide how the story goes. They're the ones that are meant to do the research and talk with the people of the ethnicity's that they are trying to represent, not the voice actors. Voice actors CAN give input, but that's not the reason they are there. You don't hire a cook because he's good at singing, you hire a cook because he's good at cooking, if he's also a good singer then that's just a nice benefit and a way to potentially make your restaurant nicer and distinct.

First being that anything we get wrong they're more likely to call us out for. Second, you have any idea how hard it is for Native actors to get work?

Irrelevant. If a (I assume you mean Native American) Native Armerican happens to be a voice actor, and happens to also be a competitively good voice actor and is available for the work then sure, hire them for the role. But there's no reason to just hire a Native American to do voice work just because they're Native American.

So, uhh, how does this exactly help with police brutality?

Not the thread for this.

The best example of this would be in Anime. where they make anyone from Kansai region of Japan sound southern for Americans.

And sidebar, I knew a few geeks from the south who tended to like those characters more because they sounded like them growing up. So there are a lot of ways to look at this.

Actually they aren't always Kansai. I've seen the accent represented by both a Cockney accent and a Brooklyn accent before. The overarching theme seems to be that the accent is considered a down to earth, tell it like it is way of speaking. So it's entirely possible those people didn't like them because they sounded like them but because those from the Kansai region are portrayed as having similar values.

 

[ObsidianJones]

Actually they aren't always Kansai. I've seen the accent represented by both a Cockney accent and a Brooklyn accent before. The overarching theme seems to be that the accent is considered a down to earth, tell it like it is way of speaking. So it's entirely possible those people didn't like them because they sounded like them but because those from the Kansai region are portrayed as having similar values.

Very true. My time with Anime has been limited of late, and I definitely watch more Subs than Dubs, but more of my history was with Southern Accents than anything else. I've heard Cockney when it was an British dub, but never American English and Cockney.

And I can think of Joey Wheeler, but truth be told, I am a man who watches his subs.

 

[BrawlMan]

This one of those grey areas. I am all for diversity, and would not mind more people of color in voice acting. As long as the person they're voicing is not a stereotype or something to be mocked, because of said race, I usually won't have a problem. Performance is also key too. Double Toasted had a pretty even view on this, but Martin at least felt that Clevand Brown was mocking stereotype. Though honestly, I never saw Cleveland like that. We have a black man (Phil Lamar) that voices Samurai Jack. A Japanese character, but it's not Jack's race that defines him. This happened before when James Avery voiced the Shredder in the 87 Turtles show.

I think his point is more youre immersion in a story isn't broken based on the color of the voice actor vs their role. I dont think people watch, I dunno, Avatar and say "Nope Aang's voice isn't Asian enough, totally ruins the show" Or watch MLP and think "Why are they voiced by people and not horses?" Anime often have women voicing little boys, but we don't say "Not little boy enough"
That if the voice acting is good, the race/gender of the actor shouldn't matter.

I watched some clips to AVTLA in Japanese and they unsurprisingly fit so well. I still prefer the original crew of course.

The best example of this would be in Anime.

Speaking of anime, I noticed recently that some newer ones from the 2010s like Panty & Stocking and Kill La Kill had a black character voiced by a white person. On first watch you would not notice, but if you ever bothered to look up the voice actors, color yourselves surprised. None of them are stereotypes with one minor exception with Garterbelt in his Southern Black Preacher voice, but other than that, nope. I still thought it was an odd decision though.

 

[Agema]

New York Times Article

Being black and Hispanic, I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I can appreciate a lot of the social change that has come in the wake of George Floyd's murder being the apparent turning point that made the world face the fact that institutional racism IS a thing and can no longer go swept under the rug. Some important and necessary changes are coming, but a part of me sees changes like this as nominal at best, and condescending ate worst.

I can understand why white actors playing live-action ethnic characters can be controversial to many; I'm sure with a little effort, they could find a culturally appropriate actors, but voice actors? In comedy cartoons? Particularly these cartoons which are steeped in history of satirizing stereotypes?

Like I said, I'm torn, so I'll open the thread up to everyone to share their thoughts; maybe I'll gain some additional insight through some candid discourse.

I wonder sometimes what people think acting is. It seems to me to be pretending to be someone else, and I don't see why a role necessarily has to be played by someone of the same race of the character according to the original text.

That said, I think there's an argument that when portraying real life figures, particularly in a race-sensitive setting, casting the same race where possible is very much preferable. We might one day get to the point people don't care, but we're some way off that yet.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Very true. My time with Anime has been limited of late, and I definitely watch more Subs than Dubs, but more of my history was with Southern Accents than anything else. I've heard Cockney when it was an British dub, but never American English and Cockney.

And I can think of Joey Wheeler, but truth be told, I am a man who watches his subs.

The place I heard Cockney used for the accent was in Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward. And while Joey is the most obvious example, Labrys from Persona 4 Arena was also given a Brooklyn accent.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Though honestly, I never saw Cleveland like that. We have a black man (Phil Lamar) that voices Samurai Jack. A Japanese character, but it's not Jack's race that defines him. This happened before when James Avery voiced the Shredder in the 87 Turtles show.

This is the mic drop. Well said, sir (or madam,) How apropos. Now if Phil Lamar played Samurai Jack in a live action version of the show, that would just be disingenuous, wrong, and I think we'd all agree that voice acting and acting, while both art forms, are not directly analogous.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I wonder sometimes what people think acting is. It seems to me to be pretending to be someone else, and I don't see why a role necessarily has to be played by someone of the same race of the character according to the original text.

That said, I think there's an argument that when portraying real life figures, particularly in a race-sensitive setting, casting the same race where possible is very much preferable. We might one day get to the point people don't care, but we're some way off that yet.

A good point. Historic movies should certainly try to portray their characters accurately for the sake of not pulling the audience out of the movie. You can get away with it in something like Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves if you give a reason for someone of that ethnicity to be in that location, but if it's an actual specific person then racial casting is worthwhile to pursue.

This is the mic drop. Well said, sir (or madam,) How apropos. Now if Phil Lamar played Samurai Jack in a live action version of the show, that would just be disingenuous, wrong, and I think we'd all agree that voice acting and acting, while both art forms, are not directly analogous.

We also shouldn't forget that one of the most famous cinematic villains, Darth Vader, was voiced by a black actor.

 

[BrawlMan]

Well said, sir

I am a guy. What you see in the profile description is accurate.

How apropos. Now if Phil Lamar played Samurai Jack in a live action version of the show, that would just be disingenuous, wrong, and I think we'd all agree that voice acting and acting, while both art forms, are not directly analogous.

Agreed.

 

[Buyetyen]

The writers are the ones that decide how the story goes. They're the ones that are meant to do the research and talk with the people of the ethnicity's that they are trying to represent, not the voice actors. Voice actors CAN give input, but that's not the reason they are there. You don't hire a cook because he's good at singing, you hire a cook because he's good at cooking, if he's also a good singer then that's just a nice benefit and a way to potentially make your restaurant nicer and distinct.

I don't think I made myself clear. This is a collaborative medium we're talking about. Do you know how rare it is for a screenplay to make it unchanged from the first day of shooting to the last? Practically unheard of. That's because everyone else has input on their end. The screenwriter gave you the story and beats to work with. The cinematographer however has input on where the camera goes in each scene, how it moves, choice of lenses, etc. The lighting crew are also going to be working with the director and cinematographer to work out the best way to light the scene for what it's trying to accomplish. And actors get into character and can give input on how this character is feeling and what's going on in their head. As Chuck Jones put it, if you have a drawing of a character, all you have is a drawing. Characters on a page do not become people until an actor breathes life into them.

And voice actors it's the same. They have input on the lines they read and how, they help develop the character, their motivations and of course their voice and lexicon. Honestly, I believe a lot of people still underestimate just how much interdisciplinary coordination and craftsmanship goes into filmmaking and animation.

 

[ObsidianJones]

This is the mic drop. Well said, sir (or madam,) How apropos. Now if Phil Lamar played Samurai Jack in a live action version of the show, that would just be disingenuous, wrong, and I think we'd all agree that voice acting and acting, while both art forms, are not directly analogous.

Here's a tough one. I completely agree with you and Brawlman, but I don't think it's a mic drop.

I'm completely for the idea that the most talented person should get the gig. Hands down, nothing more to see here, case solved.

The problem is that we don't get that option. We get the most talented person of the stable of people they allow. For instance, the current power house of Dubbing is Funamination. You can scroll through their list of actors

We're claiming exceptions as disproving the rule. Phil LaMarr kills it. TC Carson was Kratos and no one could replace him... until Christopher Judge came to put you back in your place, boy. Cree Summers was my childhood. Regina King and the Boondocks was my (semi) adulthood.

The problem is that they are already famous, so whatever. Are you telling me that the hundreds of people who pay for courses, who work their asses off and try to prove themselves in voice acting... only these five will do? Add James Earl Jones, Keith David, Sam Jackson... you have to be an award winning black actor to be thought of to get a voice over role. That is madness to me.

The opportunity seems to be only there for Voice Actors of Color if you're already known and killing it in the real world of acting. You seem to be able to be a voice actor who only wins awards in the small world of voice acting.

That's... that's questionable.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I don't think I made myself clear. This is a collaborative medium we're talking about. Do you know how rare it is for a screenplay to make it unchanged from the first day of shooting to the last? Practically unheard of. That's because everyone else has input on their end. The screenwriter gave you the story and beats to work with. The cinematographer however has input on where the camera goes in each scene, how it moves, choice of lenses, etc. The lighting crew are also going to be working with the director and cinematographer to work out the best way to light the scene for what it's trying to accomplish. And actors get into character and can give input on how this character is feeling and what's going on in their head. As Chuck Jones put it, if you have a drawing of a character, all you have is a drawing. Characters on a page do not become people until an actor breathes life into them.

And voice actors it's the same. They have input on the lines they read and how, they help develop the character, their motivations and of course their voice and lexicon. Honestly, I believe a lot of people still underestimate just how much interdisciplinary coordination and craftsmanship goes into filmmaking and animation.

All very good points. None of it requires racial preferences in your voice actors though. Edit: As an example. The work done for The Lion King had a lot of research on African culture, but most of the voice actors were not black.

Here's a tough one. I completely agree with you and Brawlman, but I don't think it's a mic drop.

I'm completely for the idea that the most talented person should get the gig. Hands down, nothing more to see here, case solved.

The problem is that we don't get that option. We get the most talented person of the stable of people they allow. For instance, the current power house of Dubbing is Funamination. You can scroll through their list of actors

We're claiming exceptions as disproving the rule. Phil LaMarr kills it. TC Carson was Kratos and no one could replace him... until Christopher Judge came to put you back in your place, boy. Cree Summers was my childhood. Regina King and the Boondocks was my (semi) adulthood.

The problem is that they are already famous, so whatever. Are you telling me that the hundreds of people who pay for courses, who work their asses off and try to prove themselves in voice acting... only these five will do? Add James Earl Jones, Keith David, Sam Jackson... you have to be an award winning black actor to be thought of to get a voice over role. That is madness to me.

The opportunity seems to be only there for Voice Actors of Color if you're already known and killing it in the real world of acting. You seem to be able to be a voice actor who only wins awards in the small world of voice acting.

That's... that's questionable.

Well what percentage of the population is black? Using google it seems that 13% of Americans are black. Why wouldn't the percentage of talented voice actors be smaller then? And from what I understand from what voice actors say, voice acting doesn't actually pay all that well, at least not the voice work outside of movies. I can't point to specific examples so take this with a grain of salt, but I remember that voice work is exhausting when you're constantly having to go to different places and make schedules for recordings and even with all that work the pay isn't actually all that good. Under those conditions, why wouldn't it be already successful black actors that do voice work? It's not a field of work that has a lot of upward mobility, doesn't pay all that well for the work, and even NOW there are cartoons and games that still don't credit voice actors. (Give a hand to the Japanese on that front. They put the voice actor's name up front for intros and even in game cutscenes) It makes sense that it's a field that would not have many black Americans.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Here's a tough one. I completely agree with you and Brawlman, but I don't think it's a mic drop.

I'm completely for the idea that the most talented person should get the gig. Hands down, nothing more to see here, case solved.

The problem is that we don't get that option. We get the most talented person of the stable of people they allow. For instance, the current power house of Dubbing is Funamination. You can scroll through their list of actors

We're claiming exceptions as disproving the rule. Phil LaMarr kills it. TC Carson was Kratos and no one could replace him... until Christopher Judge came to put you back in your place, boy. Cree Summers was my childhood. Regina King and the Boondocks was my (semi) adulthood.

The problem is that they are already famous, so whatever. Are you telling me that the hundreds of people who pay for courses, who work their asses off and try to prove themselves in voice acting... only these five will do? Add James Earl Jones, Keith David, Sam Jackson... you have to be an award winning black actor to be thought of to get a voice over role. That is madness to me.

The opportunity seems to be only there for Voice Actors of Color if you're already known and killing it in the real world of acting. You seem to be able to be a voice actor who only wins awards in the small world of voice acting.

That's... that's questionable.

I'm not debating any disparity in general equal opportunity hiring practices; I'm certain there are more than enough opportunities there as there are in most places. I'm questioning if a cartoon character of a non-white ethnicity "desreves" the corresponding real world analogue and if retconning existing characters has any consequential value for the movements we're experiencing today.

 

[balladbird]

In a perfect world, I'd argue that pretending to be something you're not is the defining trait of an actor, and thus an actors race/gender/orientation shouldn't have any bearing on the roles they fill... but I concede we don't live in a perfect world. There probably is a case to be made for opportunity. One could argue that "The best person gets the job", but in practice, casting works like everything else in life- being established and connected in the industry goes further than pure talent when it comes to finding work--people can land gigs not necessarily because they're the best, but because they're well known and directors can be comforted by their consistency. A case could likely be made that the reason the field of non-white actors is so comparatively thin is due to this self-perpetuating problem, and thus that doing something like this would serve as a gradual solution, but I've never studied the issue, so I won't pretend to be learned about it one way or the other.

My personal emotional reaction to it is mixed. Some of the changes are logical to me, others less so... such as with mulato characters, but if it's something actors/casting directors feel is best, I'll respect their call. It's tempting to say "Well, why replace old characters? Why not just cast characters correctly going forward?" but there's merit to doing it this way. 90% of the time, when someone says they want something new, they're lying to your face, and when they vote with their wallet, they reveal they actually want the comfort of the familiar. Changing something established will definitely draw more attention than making new characters in new shows.

The current trend toward recasting is something I'll neither criticize them for doing nor condemn them for not doing.

 

[ObsidianJones]

Well what percentage of the population is black? Using google it seems that 13% of Americans are black. Why wouldn't the percentage of talented voice actors be smaller then? And from what I understand from what voice actors say, voice acting doesn't actually pay all that well, at least not the voice work outside of movies. I can't point to specific examples so take this with a grain of salt, but I remember that voice work is exhausting when you're constantly having to go to different places and make schedules for recordings and even with all that work the pay isn't actually all that good. Under those conditions, why wouldn't it be already successful black actors that do voice work? It's not a field of work that has a lot of upward mobility, doesn't pay all that well for the work, and even NOW there are cartoons and games that still don't credit voice actors. (Give a hand to the Japanese on that front. They put the voice actor's name up front for intros and even in game cutscenes) It makes sense that it's a field that would not have many black Americans.

Specter, it can be either/or. If we're looking for the best, we're looking for the best. Not spinning a roulette wheel and seeing which one of the 40 people we already know the arrow lands on.

It doesn't matter if it was 2%. If there are talented people in there, they should be filling the rosters as much as everyone else. Same with latinos, asians, and what have you.

And to use your point, then why have regular voice actors at all? Kick them out. Put in Chris Evans, Chris Pines, Chris... Hemsworth, how many damn Chris'es are there in Hollywood?!

The question can easily be flipped back, you see. Why did these no names happen to be selected versus "real actors"? In fact, since there are so many more white people in this nation, they are more ubiquitous. Therefore you want exceptional talent that can only come with the price tag of a brand name white actor. And blacks? So few of them, what does it matter? Just get any voice actor on the street.

And no upward mobility? The voice of Goku, Sean Schemmel is worth 3 million dollars. Chris Sabat is worth 8 million. Tara Strong is 10 Million. The voice of Naruto, Maile Flanagan, is worth 8 million.

There's mobility to be had.

 

[ObsidianJones]

Sorry for the double post.

I'm not debating any disparity in general equal opportunity hiring practices; I'm certain there are more than enough opportunities there as there are in most places. I'm questioning if a cartoon character of a non-white ethnicity "desreves" the corresponding real world analogue and if retconning existing characters has any consequential value for the movements we're experiencing today.

When I was younger, my brother went to college for acting. Obviously since I'm black, he's black as well. My mom and dad and I piled in together and drove upstate to see his first play. He was dressed as a British Officer. In Colonial times. That itself brought about a few chuckles in the audience. But the second he spoke, everyone forgot he was a black man. Probably the last compliment that I'll ever give him, but he is a great actor.

I legitimately do not think that a character needs an actor of the same race, gender, or even sexuality to be played with conviction and passion. It can always certainly help to understand exactly what this person might be feeling in this situation, but good actors are supposed to be able to bring the experience out in people.

I understand the purpose of the gesture. Orbiting around the business as I have in the past, I see the gate closed for all but the selected few. I do not want shitty performances due to a vain attempt of equality. However, there's enough talent out there from all walks of life that you can easily find someone to crush it outside of where people normally look.

Here's the best real life example. What does Bugs Bunny, All of the Beagle Boys, Luke Skywalker, the Fiendish Dr Wu, and most of the animatronics in the Banana Splits movie have in common? They are all played by Asian Canadian voice actor Eric Bauza.

I'm always for the search of the best people to play a part. I just think that search should also extend out of people's comfort zone. The best choice isn't necessarily apart of your contacts right now.

 

[Buyetyen]

All very good points. None of it requires racial preferences in your voice actors though. Edit: As an example. The work done for The Lion King had a lot of research on African culture, but most of the voice actors were not black.

Requirement? No. Consideration one should make in casting? Yes. It's easy to underestimate just how much thought and work goes into making even a cheesy movie. Voice acting is its own discipline and deserves the same respect as stage or screen acting.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Specter, it can be either/or. If we're looking for the best, we're looking for the best. Not spinning a roulette wheel and seeing which one of the 40 people we already know the arrow lands on.

It doesn't matter if it was 2%. If there are talented people in there, they should be filling the rosters as much as everyone else. Same with latinos, asians, and what have you.

I already explained this. There's a minority of black people in the USA and only so many of those people will have the desire to become voice actors and only so many of them will have the competency to be able to be good voice actors, and only so many of them will have the opportunity or means to get into the industry, this means that the amount of black voice actors should be expected to be low. This isn't about it being fair, this is just looking at the statistics and what should be expected from them.

And to use your point, then why have regular voice actors at all? Kick them out. Put in Chris Evans, Chris Pines, Chris... Hemsworth, how many damn Chris'es are there in Hollywood?!

The question can easily be flipped back, you see. Why did these no names happen to be selected versus "real actors"? In fact, since there are so many more white people in this nation, they are more ubiquitous. Therefore you want exceptional talent that can only come with the price tag of a brand name white actor. And blacks? So few of them, what does it matter? Just get any voice actor on the street.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Could you rephrase it?

And no upward mobility? The voice of Goku, Sean Schemmel is worth 3 million dollars. Chris Sabat is worth 8 million. Tara Strong is 10 Million. The voice of Naruto, Maile Flanagan, is worth 8 million.

There's mobility to be had.

You are using examples of people that have done voices for incredibly successful shows as some of the most popular characters there are. This is also their net worth, not what they got paid for doing their voice work when they started out.

And don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that black people are incapable of entering the industry, but how long has just animation been at all a profitable business compared to live acting? Not very long, not until the 80's I'd wager, and the ability for people to display their talent on things like Youtube and get noticed has never been better, so I believe we should expect the number of black voice actors to increase.

 

[Fieldy409]

I get it when you're doing some crazy racial stereotype. But it feels like its starting to become soft banned to ever voice a person of colour for a white person and that feels like too much. A good respectful performance is totally different to Apu from the Simpsons going 'thankyou come again!'.