2019-2020 coronavirus pandemic (Vaccination 2021 Edition)

[Agema]

I haven't advocated for any behavior different than what you're suggesting. It's not "not wanting to hear bad news". It's that fear makes people stupid. Fear leads to people panic buying toilet paper. It puts people at each others' throats. It actually weakens people's immune systems. It's not helpful.

I don't think encouraging concern and responsible behaviour is even half as stupid as the millions of Americans who took their lead from Trump that covid-19 was a hoax, harmless, A Democratic plot or whatever other irrational contrivance, and then decided to make contempt for protective measures a statement of macho pride and political resistance to the socialist cuck libtards. That's the height of fucking stupid, deeply embedded in your party.

There's no sign of a second wave. There might be in the fall. I don't think there will be, but we don't know that yet. But freaking out about it now based on barely evidence it might be possible is silly. (Especially since you're still maintaining the position that most people are still very susceptible, reinfection possibilities should be unnecessary for a second wave in your mind).

I think it's beyond pathetic to characterise reasonable speculation as "freaking out", in what I can only describe as a feeble attempt to portray people who disagree with you as some sort of hysterical irrationals. If you think you can sit there predicting it's all pretty much over and no big deal anymore, that the susceptible have all been infected and the damage done, then good luck to you persuading people to also take precautions, because you're giving them all the rationalisation they need to not bother.

 

[Silvanus]

Nah, I don't think that is how it works in an everyday setting. People should distance in enclosed environments for sure as espescially lack of proper ventilation is a major risk factor. Prioritizing proper hygiene is equally important. But claiming face masks prevent spread of microscopic viral particles is just not true. Also if something coughs nearby than the droplets would certainly also end up in the tear ducts which is another route for infection. Walking around with a dirty sock in your mouth just provides a false sense of safety where they might think it's an alternative to distancing. Also breathing through that concentration of mouth bacteria just doesn't sound all that conducive to proper health in my opinion. Masks might work in a medical setting where they are part of an entire package of preventative measures as part of a procedure and with parts of the facility sterile but in everyday life the thing gets contaminated almost immediately.

A mask wouldn't prevent microscopic particles travelling alone, but most viral particles don't travel alone; they travel in relatively large droplets, much larger than the gaps in a commercially-available mask. And you're right to say that these could come into contact with the tear ducts as well-- but that's one of three entryways. Closing two to direct contact is better than closing none.

Some randomised trials also showed pretty much no effect:

''RESULTS: We included 15 randomised trials investigating the effect of masks (14 trials) in healthcare workers and the general population and of quarantine (1 trial). We found no trials testing eye protection. Compared to no masks there was no reduction of influenza-like illness (ILI) cases (Risk Ratio 0.93, 95%CI 0.83 to 1.05) or influenza (Risk Ratio 0.84, 95%CI 0.61-1.17) for masks in the general population, nor in healthcare workers (Risk Ratio 0.37, 95%CI 0.05 to 2.50). There was no difference between surgical masks and N95 respirators: for ILI (Risk Ratio 0.83, 95%CI 0.63 to 1.08), for influenza (Risk Ratio 1.02, 95%CI 0.73 to 1.43).''

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30.20047217v2

Aye, and others-- more of them-- show a positive impact: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

Not an enormous level of protection if we're talking about single-layer commercially-available masks, but significant enough.

 

[stroopwafel]

I'm not totally sure what you mean, so forgive me if this isn't where you were going. I can only explain it as I know of it. There are lots of white blood cells with differing functions. The main three in simpilified form are:
1) Macrophages, which engulf and destroy pathogens, leaving behind antigens which are picked up by...
2) ...B-cells, which produce antibodies to those pathogens for an antibody-mediated response
3) T-cells which recognise pathattack infected cells (although there are quite a few subvarieties with specialised functions) as a cellular response.
However, all three interact with each other to some degree, and enhance the activity of the others in response to infection.

A vaccine should promote a short-lived immune response. Some of the B- and T-cells are "memory" cells that retain information on prior infections, and can be much more quickly ramp up into action upon re-infection to deliver a faster response.

Naturally, if there is some sort of infection of any sort, production of immune cells should increase, and a generalised heightened immune response against one infection may help combat another in the affected area. However, it doesn't really follow as I understand it that a vaccine would suppress the immune system below a normal baseline - there are an awful lot of infections out there to keep things ticking over.

I remember reading somewhere once based on some study where they concluded influenza vaccinated children had lower T cell count. It reminded me when that scientist in the Guardian article mentions how T cells are also important as antigens in immune function. Espescially with infection of unknown viruses for which there is no treatment or natural immunity. That's why I said vaccinating healthy people might be counter-productive in the long run.

I did some digging and this was the study btw:

''In the group of CF patients vaccinated annually, the age-dependent increase in virus-specific CD8+ T cell responses was absent. Our interpretation of these findings is that vaccination efficiently induced virus-specific antibodies which protected against infection with seasonal influenza viruses to a great extent and thereby prevented the induction of virus-specific CD8+ T cell responses.''

Annual Vaccination against Influenza Virus Hampers Development of Virus-Specific CD8+ T Cell Immunity in Children | Journal of Virology

Infection with seasonal influenza A viruses induces immunity to potentially pandemic influenza A viruses of other subtypes (heterosubtypic immunity). We recently demonstrated that vaccination against seasonal influenza prevented the induction of ...

jvi.asm.org

 

[tstorm823]

I don't think encouraging concern and responsible behaviour is even half as stupid as the millions of Americans who took their lead from Trump that covid-19 was a hoax, harmless, A Democratic plot or whatever other irrational contrivance, and then decided to make contempt for protective measures a statement of macho pride and political resistance to the socialist cuck libtards. That's the height of fucking stupid, deeply embedded in your party.

Right, but those are propaganda representations of things Trump didn't quite imply. You're just stating media spin over again, that's the media's fault. Donald Trump never even remotely called covid-19 a hoax.

I think it's beyond pathetic to characterise reasonable speculation as "freaking out", in what I can only describe as a feeble attempt to portray people who disagree with you as some sort of hysterical irrationals. If you think you can sit there predicting it's all pretty much over and no big deal anymore, that the susceptible have all been infected and the damage done, then good luck to you persuading people to also take precautions, because you're giving them all the rationalisation they need to not bother.

People don't need rationalization to not bother. If people are reaching for excuses not to bother, they'll find them. You're not convincing people to change their minds any more than I am. But what you can do is exacerbate the behavior of people who've made up their minds, and when people are irrationally afraid and you stoke the flames, that's a mistake. Offering hope isn't stoking any flames.

 

[Agema]

Right, but those are propaganda representations of things Trump didn't quite imply. You're just stating media spin over again, that's the media's fault. Donald Trump never even remotely called covid-19 a hoax.

In some states, people had covid-19 parties, because they believed it was a hoax (although more commonly they held such parties to get immunity on the assumption they'd survive). Where did they get that idea? I know if we want to be technical, Trump used the term "hoax" specifically in relation to Democrats' treatment of his policies. But lets not get hung up on a precise word. It's all the other stuff he said, that it wasn't a threat, it would magically go away, refusing to wear a mask and opposing anti-spread measures that we really don't need to go through again. Lots of people are fans of Trump. They will listen to and take in that shit, just as they'll support a pointless border wall on his say-so.

That's the thing with sloppy, inconsistent communication: people misunderstand. Clarity and consistency are right up there in the big book of how to communicate properly in politics to facilitate public persuasion. People would misunderstand even without the media twisting anything, bceause that's how incompetent Trump has been. Moaning at the media is merely a distraction from the fact the fault lies at the top. We've had this debate before, too.

People don't need rationalization to not bother. If people are reaching for excuses not to bother, they'll find them. You're not convincing people to change their minds any more than I am.

Fewer than 100 people read or hear anything I have to say on the matter, and nearly all of them are already sold because most people I interact with are rational and reasonable people without absurd political posturing to push at the cost of their own and their loved ones' health. I am almost entirely an irrelevance in terms of persuading people to take good preventative measures. I don't bother being my nice and persuasive best here because there is effectively no-one to convince, and so I may as well just express my criticism. I do try to set an example when I go out shopping, etc.

The number of absolute don'ts and won'ts is relatively small. But there are waverers, not-keens and don't-knows can be persuaded to adhere by all manner of techniques, from consistent and clear messaging from authority to social conformity and peer pressure. To a large extent the damage is already done now - just another stupid and harmful fuck-up by orange blobby in the USA - it'll be much harder to encourage responsible behaviour when it's already been so thoroughly undermined from the start. But I live in the hope that something is better than nothing.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Aye, and others-- more of them-- show a positive impact: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

Wanna see something really entertaining, read the conclusion and methodology of that linked study to which you responded. Then compare the size of the abstract to the competing interest statement. Then check out the content of the competing interest statement.

 

[tstorm823]

That's the thing with sloppy, inconsistent communication: people misunderstand. Clarity and consistency are right up there in the big book of how to communicate properly in politics to facilitate public persuasion. People would misunderstand even without the media twisting anything, because that's how incompetent Trump has been. Moaning at the media is merely a distraction from the fact the fault lies at the top. We've had this debate before, too.

We have, but you're still wrong. When someone says that the virus is a problem that we're doing a good job taking seriously, and they spin it into "we're not taking the virus seriously", that's just a lie. No level of clear or consistent communication can't be lied about.

 

[Agema]

We have, but you're still wrong. When someone says that the virus is a problem that we're doing a good job taking seriously, and they spin it into "we're not taking the virus seriously", that's just a lie. No level of clear or consistent communication can't be lied about.

Unfortunately, there are a massive plethora of statements and actions the president (and some of his team) have done to severely undermine clear and consistent messaging to the public. Media is such that will always be blabbermouths to pop up and say it's no big deal because debating the issues is a thing. But if the government put out a firm, clear, and consistent message, that would overwhelmingly be the message the people got. There was even money to be made: MAGA facemasks, Trump-branded antiseptic hand gel, ffs.

The thing about liberals is that they can be a bunch of bleeding hearts who don't like people dying: that's why they do things like oppose gun ownership, the death penalty and want socialised healthcare. The likes of the NYT, CNN and WaPo were never going to significantly undermine a successful public health campaign just to hate on Trump.

But anway, good public service messaging - that's not Trump, is it? Because once the issue gets beyond being about Trump, Trump's interest nosedives. He didn't really care about covid-19 until the stock market collapsed, which he felt made him look bad. Instead he spent that time mouthing empty, feel-good platitudes and raging at his opponents, because it's easy and made him feel good. Then he squandered covid-19 briefing after covid-19 briefing rambling about nothing in particular, touting quackery and raging against his opponents, declaring them a success not in terms of clear public messaging, but TV ratings. He ran them himself, burbling about this and that for hours with very little cohesion, because he wanted the limelight for himself. Fauci and Birx - who could and would have achieved quality messaging - were criminally underused and even sidelined, likely for contradicting the president at points. (After Fauci spoke to Congress and said things contrary to Trump, he was effectively benched.) When Trump really blew up a briefing, in a sulk he canned the briefing in entirety for a few days rather than let someone competent run it. He won't wear a mask, because then he doesn't look strong and macho, too tough for a mere virus to conquer. All about him, nothing about his people.

It's both enraging and yet also so pitifully sad. That's the US president, the most powerful man on earth and supposed leader of the free world: an insecure man-baby alternately raging and incoherently rambling about stuff like injecting bleach. If I were a Republican it would break my heart. I have no idea how you can bear it.

 

[tstorm823]

Unfortunately, there are a massive plethora of statements and actions the president (and some of his team) have done to severely undermine clear and consistent messaging to the public. Media is such that will always be blabbermouths to pop up and say it's no big deal because debating the issues is a thing. But if the government put out a firm, clear, and consistent message, that would overwhelmingly be the message the people got. There was even money to be made: MAGA facemasks, Trump-branded antiseptic hand gel, ffs.

The thing about liberals is that they can be a bunch of bleeding hearts who don't like people dying: that's why they do things like oppose gun ownership, the death penalty and want socialised healthcare. The likes of the NYT, CNN and WaPo were never going to significantly undermine a successful public health campaign just to hate on Trump.

But anway, good public service messaging - that's not Trump, is it? Because once the issue gets beyond being about Trump, Trump's interest nosedives. He didn't really care about covid-19 until the stock market collapsed, which he felt made him look bad. Instead he spent that time mouthing empty, feel-good platitudes and raging at his opponents, because it's easy and made him feel good. Then he squandered covid-19 briefing after covid-19 briefing rambling about nothing in particular, touting quackery and raging against his opponents, declaring them a success not in terms of clear public messaging, but TV ratings. He ran them himself, burbling about this and that for hours with very little cohesion, because he wanted the limelight for himself. Fauci and Birx - who could and would have achieved quality messaging - were criminally underused and even sidelined, likely for contradicting the president at points. (After Fauci spoke to Congress and said things contrary to Trump, he was effectively benched.) When Trump really blew up a briefing, in a sulk he canned the briefing in entirety for a few days rather than let someone competent run it. He won't wear a mask, because then he doesn't look strong and macho, too tough for a mere virus to conquer. All about him, nothing about his people.

It's both enraging and yet also so pitifully sad. That's the US president, the most powerful man on earth and supposed leader of the free world: an insecure man-baby alternately raging and incoherently rambling about stuff like injecting bleach. If I were a Republican it would break my heart. I have no idea how you can bear it.

I'm not sure how you can get this so impressively backwards. Those media companies are constantly undermining public health campaigns as we speak. The all ran headlines advertising injecting bleach. They signal boosted questionable (at best) research claiming a drug made you more likely to die just because Trump spoke positively about it. They are doing their absolute best to try and make the US look bad, when any reasonable person given accurate information can see that's just not true.

See for example, there's currently a fuss on Okinawa because a bunch of marines on a military base caught the virus. They're acting as though the US brought the cases over with them, but Japan had cases start to visibly rise a month ago despite having offensively low testing levels. They're really doing "there is no virus on Okinawa" as though that marine base has more germ connections with Kentucky than Tokyo. That's just embarrassing levels of delusion.

If you spent more than 30 seconds on actual covid press conferences and not the distorted media version, Trump constantly deferred to Fauci and Birx, asked them questions, invited them up to take questions, told the press to give them some attention rather than just grilling Trump. You could rightly criticize him for deflecting away from himself if you wanted to. Trump did not make the pandemic the Trump show. The media did that, decidedly against Trump's desires. You're talking nonsense.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Trump did not make the pandemic the Trump show.

Trump said, out loud with words from his mouth, that some people wear masks "to show disapproval" of him.

Everything is the Trump show to Trump.

 

[tstorm823]

Trump said, out loud with words from his mouth, that some people wear masks "to show disapproval" of him.

Everything is the Trump show to Trump.

Would you like to know the full transcript of that quote? From the Wall Street Journal interview, the section about masks:

Mr. Bender: You also don’t seem to like masks very much. Do you think people are protesting you when they wear them?
Mr. Trump: Masks are a double-edge sword. People touch them. And they grab them and I see it all the time. They come in, they take the mask. Now they’re holding it now in their fingers. And they drop it on the desk and then they touch their eye and they touch their nose. No, I think a mask is a…it’s a double-edged sword. It’s a double-edged sword. I see Biden. It’s like his whole face is covered. It’s like he put a knapsack over his face. He probably likes it that way. He feels good that way because he does. He seems to feel good in a mask, you know, feels better than he does without the mask, which is a strange situation.
Mr. Bender: You’ve commented on Biden’s mask a few times, and a couple of reporters who wear masks. Do you view that as a protest of you? Do you feel like people wear masks to show their disapproval of you?
Mr. Trump: It could be, yeah. It could be. But it could also be they feel better about it. I mean, I’m okay with it. Look, I’m okay with it. But the mask is a double-edged sword and I see it. People come in, they’re talking through the mask for hours. They probably don’t clean them after, you know, they get a little cocky, right? Then they take the mask, they put their finger on the mask, and they take them off, and then they start touching their eyes and touching their nose and their mouth. And then they don’t know how they caught it.
Mr. Bender: One of my sisters is a nurse and she’s described this as a false sense of security that it gives people.
Mr. Trump: It’s possible. It could be a false sense of security. But think of it, they’re touching it. I watch them all day long. They’re playing with it. You watch some of these politicians, they start talking, they take their fingers and they put them inside the mask and they rip it down. Now their fingers are infected. Potentially. And then they touch their nose. They touch their eyes, they touch their mouth. Voilà.

So you get, say CNBC, reporting that like this: Trump says some Americans wear coronavirus masks ‘to signal disapproval of him'. And they put that "to signal disapproval of him" in quotes in the headline as though he said that. But there's the transcript, he didn't say that. In fact, nobody said that exact quote in that interview, it was only in the article summarizing the interview, which stated that he "allowed for the possibility that some Americans wore facial coverings not as a preventive measure but as a way to signal disapproval of him."

So no, Trump did not say out loud with words from his own mouth that some people wear masks to show disapproval of him. You were just lied to. The media lied to you. He was asked point blank if he felt that way, they deliberately tried to lead him into saying that, and he declined to say that. So they asked him the same question a second time, and he said "It could be. But it could also be they feel better about it. I mean, I'm ok with it." They tried twice to get him to say what you think he said, he declined to say yes both times, and then they played whisper down the alley (with the real quote locked behind a paywall) so that two articles removed from his actual words they could put the quote you thought he said in the headline.

So yes, the media are making the pandemic the Trump Show. It's 100% on them.

 

[Agema]

I'm not sure how you can get this so impressively backwards. Those media companies are constantly undermining public health campaigns as we speak. The all ran headlines advertising injecting bleach. They signal boosted questionable (at best) research claiming a drug made you more likely to die just because Trump spoke positively about it.

The only impressive thing is that you can spout that appalling guff without curling into a ball and withering away from embarrassment. The kindest compliment I could give you about it would be to say I don't think you even believe it, deep down.

They are doing their absolute best to try and make the US look bad, when any reasonable person given accurate information can see that's just not true.

Currently the USA is ninth on deaths per head population in the world, looking on track to claim eighth spot in that hall of ignominy. It may be overtaken in turn by some developing countries like Brazil, though. Two of those countries ahead are Andorra and San Marino, and all the others are generally accepted to have botched their covid-19 responses to at least a substantial degree. So, the USA's merit badge currently stands at "Not as shit as Spain, Italy and the UK", which I think can safely equate to bad.

If you spent more than 30 seconds on actual covid press conferences and not the distorted media version, Trump constantly deferred to Fauci and Birx, asked them questions, invited them up to take questions, told the press to give them some attention rather than just grilling Trump. You could rightly criticize him for deflecting away from himself if you wanted to. Trump did not make the pandemic the Trump show. The media did that, decidedly against Trump's desires. You're talking nonsense.

Unfortunately for you, I'm calling that bluff.

I can't say I've literally sat through every second of an entire 2h (!) Trump coronavirus briefing, but I've skipped through a few, chopping through a few mins every time I got fed up listening to the The Donald ramble on ineffectually or start raging against the media / Democrats, repeating himself, or boasting. Two hours? Fucking hell. Day after day, Trump assembled himself and a load of people with jobs to do onto a stage to waste sizeable chunks of their day. In the UK, they did the same job in half the time, and usually by each person doing a segment of statements and taking questions, then leaving and letting the next person or team do their stint. And more to the point, they didn't waffle half so much. I think the depressing thing is the bit where it's most technically useful, and he's reading some key facts off the lectern. His face and voice go dead and slack, and he just chunters through it rapidly and mechanically to get it done like the dull chore he obviously feels it is. Vast tracts of it are padding. All the questions he spends ages not really answering by instead making vague allusions to having meetings, speaking to people, sorting things out. Lots of the time, it's just the rambling. To give an example, there's one press conference he's asked some question about oil prodiuction, and he spends well over four damn minutes on this meandering answer that's got a tiny fraction of that time in useful content. It's awful. And he does that sort of thing a lot.

Anyway, no, he clearly doen't "constantly" defer to Fauci and Birx - he let's them speak and answer some questions. But the idea that he "defers" is not compatible with the reality where, for instance, Trump touted hydroxychloroquine as a likely wonderdrug, and Fauci says it isn't, and Trump continues asserting that it is. Or where he blathers on self-congratulatedly about his great idea of injecting bleach as Birx looks to the side in diplomatically-muted embarrassment. Because at points where he should shut up and let the adults speak, he doesn't. (Fauci of course seems to be in the doghouse currently: Trump might not want to risk firing him, but he can deny him platforms and let White House aides brief against him.)

 

[tstorm823]

Currently the USA is ninth on deaths per head population in the world, looking on track to claim eighth spot in that hall of ignominy. It may be overtaken in turn by some developing countries like Brazil, though. Two of those countries ahead are Andorra and San Marino, and all the others are generally accepted to have botched their covid-19 responses to at least a substantial degree. So, the USA's merit badge currently stands at "Not as shit as Spain, Italy and the UK", which I think can safely equate to bad.

So, how many other nations in the world are you betting are even trying to count? A dozen? Maybe? You know as well as I do that 90% of the world's nations lack the capacity to even try to track the pandemic like the countries you're comparing, nor do they probably want to.

Anyway, no, he clearly doen't "constantly" defer to Fauci and Birx - he let's them speak and answer some questions. But the idea that he "defers" is not compatible with the reality where, for instance, Trump touted hydroxychloroquine as a likely wonderdrug, and Fauci says it isn't, and Trump continues asserting that it is. Or where he blathers on self-congratulatedly about his great idea of injecting bleach as Birx looks to the side in diplomatically-muted embarrassment. Because at points where he should shut up and let the adults speak, he doesn't. (Fauci of course seems to be in the doghouse currently: Trump might not want to risk firing him, but he can deny him platforms and let White House aides brief against him.)

I mean, if you're just gonna say things that didn't happen, why bother?

 

[Agema]

So, how many other nations in the world are you betting are even trying to count? A dozen? Maybe? You know as well as I do that 90% of the world's nations lack the capacity to even try to track the pandemic like the countries you're comparing, nor do they probably want to.

All the countries that matter for useful comparison - developed countries - will be counting at least reasonably accurately. Any developed country that thinks they can be proud they weathered a pandemic better than Burkina Faso or Peru can be laughed out of the room.

I mean, if you're just gonna say things that didn't happen, why bother?

But they did happen. Trump spent ages pumping hydroxychloroquine unrealistically. And he definitely said he had proposed this great idea about injecting bleach. There's video evidence of them for anyone to see, and I've watched them. He clearly wasn't in agreement with his chief medical advisors on them. How on earth does the president of the USA go on TV and talk about his ideas of injecting bleach? It's staggering. How can you not get just how disturbing that is?

I mean, you want to blame the media, but it's feeble. The media have, for decades, told the public notable things politicians say, as it is their job to. You can't suddenly demand it's unfair or trickery when they go ahead and still do as they always have done just because your idol said something stupid and incompetent. The job of the media is to report. In terms of dealing with a pandemic, it is the job of the government to provide useful information with clarity and consistency for the press to report. The government has access to a battalion of media strategists with ways of ensuring messages get out there. If the government fails to effectively manage its media communications, it's the fault of the government. It's not up to the media to decide national disease prevention strategy on the government's behalf when the government hands out mixed messages. So when the president stands up and says many people say there are amazing studies that say hydroxychloroquine is going to save us all, it's the job of the media to report that's what the president says. That's explicitly what a press conference or briefing is for. The press can add opinions from other people supplying appropriate caveats to presidental untruths, but it's the antithesis of their job to act like he hasn't said it.

It's the fault of Trump. You can rage about some incidents of media distortion all you like, but Trump is a bullshitter and liar extraordinaire. It's like we've watched a football (soccer) team lose 8-0, and you're raging that the referee wrongly denied them a penalty. For all it may technically be true, it's really not why the team lost. Every time you can complain about a media distortion, there are ten unambiguous untruths and ten muddled statements highly prone to misinterpretation. Almost nothing Trump says can be trusted, he has made a wasteland out of political honesty, and he has annihilated his relationship with and goodwill from the media. I think he's done it as a strategy of chaos to keep them distracted and reactive. Unfortunately, that same strategy is a disaster when he needs to take control for clear and consistent messaging.

So take the big look you need to at that vast, fat, orange, candyfloss-haired elephant in the room, and stop bothering us with what is, by comparison, nitpicking.

 

[tstorm823]

But they did happen. Trump spent ages pumping hydroxychloroquine unrealistically. And he definitely said he had proposed this great idea about injecting bleach.

He said of hydroxychloroquine essentially if it's cheap and doesn't hurt you why not try, and he said nothing about injecting bleach. I genuinely just stopped reading here. You're not taking this seriously.

 

[Houseman]

And he definitely said he had proposed this great idea about injecting bleach. There's video evidence of them for anyone to see, and I've watched them.

I watched that video too. Even read the official transcript. lil devils even claimed that Trump suggested injecting disinfectant into the eye. Remember that?

Here's what he says about either bleach or injections:

We’re also testing disinfectants readily available. We’ve tested bleach, we’ve tested isopropyl alcohol on the virus, specifically in saliva or in respiratory fluids. And I can tell you that bleach will kill the virus in five minutes; isopropyl alcohol will kill the virus in 30 seconds, and that’s with no manipulation, no rubbing — just spraying it on and letting it go. You rub it and it goes away even faster. We’re also looking at other disinfectants, specifically looking at the COVID-19 virus in saliva.

THE PRESIDENT: Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me.

Q But I — just, can I ask about — the President mentioned the idea of cleaners, like bleach and isopropyl alcohol you mentioned. There’s no scenario that that could be injected into a person, is there? I mean —

ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: No, I’m here to talk about the findings that we had in the study. We won’t do that within that lab and our lab. So —

THE PRESIDENT: It wouldn’t be through injection. We’re talking about through almost a cleaning, sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work. But it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.

Seems like he claimed that bleach and alcohol were being tested on saliva and on hard surfaces. You know, Clorox wipes. Not eating them. Not injecting them. Wiping down "stationary objects".

And then in the second quote he spitballs the idea of a way to disinfect the inside of one's body in the form of a question. "And is there way we can do something like that..."

He doesn't tell people to do it. He doesn't suggest it. He doesn't say it's even possible or viable. He says "it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with."

 

[Phoenixmgs]

So, how many other nations in the world are you betting are even trying to count? A dozen? Maybe? You know as well as I do that 90% of the world's nations lack the capacity to even try to track the pandemic like the countries you're comparing, nor do they probably want to.

Out of these 147 nations, the US is the 7th worst, which is in the top 5% worst. There's pretty good data (looking at deaths in prior years over the same time as this year) that equates to the US under-reporting as well. I'm guessing you can do the same basic number crunching for most countries if you think they're under-reporting virus deaths as well.

He said of hydroxychloroquine essentially if it's cheap and doesn't hurt you why not try, and he said nothing about injecting bleach. I genuinely just stopped reading here. You're not taking this seriously.

Why doesn't he tell people to take something actually useful like vitamin d instead of some unproven drug like hydroxychloroquine that does have known side effects? He did literally just say the virus is harmless to 99% of people so why take a drug with known side effects then when you most likely don't need anything? (I'm assuming he's pulling from the actual mortality rate being basically 1% so it's not complete BS but just because you don't die from infection doesn't equate to harmless either). Instead of taking hydroxychloroquine, why not tell people to take quercetin (+ zinc), which is a zinc ionophore like hydroxy but far safer since it's naturally found in fruits and vegetables? I'm not saying the President should have the responsibility of doing such research but if you're going to go up there and talk up some drug on your own accord, then you should have done the fucking research as you then become one of those people on Facebook that contributes to misinformation by sharing bogus things, and do you want your President to ever be one of those people?

The media is also bad whether you're watching the right or left side. I saw an Anderson Cooper video the other day citing Trump's 99% harmless claim and retorting it with a factually wrong mortality rate. And those questions I just asked above, why hasn't the media mentioned any of that and did any actual reporting. Media at least has the excuse for being basically entertainment and a business looking to make profit ("Dirty Laundry" is a pretty old song now). However, government is not a business and should be together with a clear message based on the consensus of the experts and that hasn't happened. Hell, Japan knew they couldn't do what South Korea did with testing and contact tracing and the plan was simply wear masks and lower human interactions by 80% and they're kicking the US's ass with a simple clear message. The US has definitely not taken advantage of the KISS method. Hell, I just literally got booted from the BoardGameGeek group on Facebook for saying you can play board games together (and I was apparantly spreading misinformation when I cited the doctor that helped develop a coronavirus vaccine).

 

[tstorm823]

Out of these 147 nations, the US is the 7th worst, which is in the top 5% worst. There's pretty good data (looking at deaths in prior years over the same time as this year) that equates to the US under-reporting as well. I'm guessing you can do the same basic number crunching for most countries if you think they're under-reporting virus deaths as well.


Why doesn't he tell people to take something actually useful like vitamin d instead of some unproven drug like hydroxychloroquine that does have known side effects? He did literally just say the virus is harmless to 99% of people so why take a drug with known side effects then when you most likely don't need anything? (I'm assuming he's pulling from the actual mortality rate being basically 1% so it's not complete BS but just because you don't die from infection doesn't equate to harmless either). Instead of taking hydroxychloroquine, why not tell people to take quercetin (+ zinc), which is a zinc ionophore like hydroxy but far safer since it's naturally found in fruits and vegetables? I'm not saying the President should have the responsibility of doing such research but if you're going to go up there and talk up some drug on your own accord, then you should have done the fucking research as you then become one of those people on Facebook that contributes to misinformation by sharing bogus things, and do you want your President to ever be one of those people?

The media is also bad whether you're watching the right or left side. I saw an Anderson Cooper video the other day citing Trump's 99% harmless claim and retorting it with a factually wrong mortality rate. And those questions I just asked above, why hasn't the media mentioned any of that and did any actual reporting. Media at least has the excuse for being basically entertainment and a business looking to make profit ("Dirty Laundry" is a pretty old song now). However, government is not a business and should be together with a clear message based on the consensus of the experts and that hasn't happened. Hell, Japan knew they couldn't do what South Korea did with testing and contact tracing and the plan was simply wear masks and lower human interactions by 80% and they're kicking the US's ass with a simple clear message. The US has definitely not taken advantage of the KISS method. Hell, I just literally got booted from the BoardGameGeek group on Facebook for saying you can play board games together (and I was apparantly spreading misinformation when I cited the doctor that helped develop a coronavirus vaccine).

Just gonna shoot some stuff out quick because I spent too long playing with numbers and I have to get ready for work now, but I found the New York Times excess mortality data here. I only goes up to mid-May, but it's the easiest data set to work with that I've found so far. I then compared to the reported number of covid deaths from here. Between the week of March 9th when covid deaths in the US started and the week of May 11th where the dataset ends, there were 93,385 reported covid deaths in the US compared to excess mortality of 94,532. If we assume other than covid the normal number of people died (which is a bad assumption, but makes easy math), that makes the US death count just shy of 99% accurate.

But more interestingly, of that two month span, it looks like it flipped from undercounting to overcounting. For the first half, the reported covid deaths are thousands under the excess mortality, and then the second half is thousands over, flipping at the point where deaths started going down which suggests its actually just reporting lag. Buuuut the number of people dying to covid continued to go down after that period, so chances are almost 100% that the next few periods at least continued with more reported covid deaths than excess mortality...

The US is reporting more covid deaths than excess mortality, and the data set stopped being maintained exactly the week the numbers were going to trade places. I'll probably dive back into this stuff when I get home in like 12 hours.

 

[Agema]

snip

"So I asked Bill a question some of you are thinking of if you're into that world, which I find to be pretty interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether its ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said, that hasn't been checked but you're gonna test it. And then I said, supposing it brought the light inside the body, which you can either do either through the skin or some other way, and I think you said you're gonna test that too, sounds interesting. And I then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way you can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it'd be interesting to check that. So that you're going to have use medical doctors with."

So let's not pretend for a minute Trump isn't talking about injecting bleach (if you'll forgive that shorthand for "disinfectant", because I feel Tstorm823 and others are at the point of portraying even that trivial a distinction as "media lies"). He absolutely, certainly, is.

It's total dysfunction. He shouldn't be talking about this in the first place: it's inarticulate, erroneous drivel on what is at best the absurdly speculative. If the narrative he relates is true, it suggests he is not only wildly ignorant, but his advisors are too scared to tell him so and that his ideas are insane and dangerous. Thus he's walking up to a podium to deliver key public information whilst underprepared, ignorant, and more interested in showing off how he can give his scientists and medical doctors ideas on how to treat diseases.

Seems like he claimed that bleach and alcohol were being tested on saliva and on hard surfaces. You know, Clorox wipes. Not eating them. Not injecting them. Wiping down "stationary objects".

I can believe it's possible Trump didn't mean to suggest injecting bleach, he's just so inarticulate, unfocused, underprepared and used to bullshitting that he just let his mouth run. (Now imagine that in a 1:1 conversation with another national leader. Although we know what the result of that can be from when he accidentally gave Erdogan the go-ahead to assault the USA's Kurdish allies.) But let no-one for a minute try to argue that he did not propose injecting bleach, because he openly announced on television that he did. The fact he might have twigged, rather later, just how bad that was and tried to row back on it slightly is nothing more than a sticking plaster over damage already done.

And now Tstorm and others are trying to frantically slap down even more sticking plasters, but none make up just how grossly incompetent and dysfunctional Trump was to kick that whole clusterfuck off. I feel like I've watched a man get stabbed 25 times, and people are raging at me that the only problem here is that press reported he was stabbed 27 times.

 

[tstorm823]

And now Tstorm and others are trying to frantically slap down even more sticking plasters, but none make up just how grossly incompetent and dysfunctional Trump was to kick that whole clusterfuck off. I feel like I've watched a man get stabbed 25 times, and people are raging at me that the only problem here is that press reported he was stabbed 27 times.

Then why are you instigating it? If you want to stop being told you're lying, stop lying! The fact that you explicitly acknowledge you're phrasing it in a way that you know is wrong and you know will lead to you being called a liar says to me that you prefer that to actual argument. Can't win the argument, so may as well degrade it, right?