Suspending the Election

Trunkage

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Nazi Germany was absolutely socialist. It had state control of the means of production, which is a form of social ownership.
It was the opposite. You might call it the state control of employees. They forced employees into 'unions' and controlled them so they had to follow employers instructions
It probably was more like feudalism, with the state being a king, making the serfs work for the landlords (employers)
 

Tireseas

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Slightly off topic, but since a lot of people are really into the entire soviet collapse and russian political history I'd love a recommendation or two on a good introduction to the topics.
I would not recommend it as a introductory book (nor a contemporary look as it's 12 years old), but once you're comfortable enough with Russian politics conceptually, I'd recommend Petrostate by Marshall I. Goldman. You can read the first few pages via Google.
 

MrCalavera

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Yes I do. I'm not afraid of socialism. America is a mixed economy with or without the Defense Production Act. That's not a boogeyman.

The Nazis "sold off" state ownership to private companies... and then told those companies what to do anyway... and made it illegal for them not to benefit the Nazi party. It was a command economy, with production dedicated to the German war machine. Let's not pretend private business had any power in Nazi Germany.
It was very much a symbiotic relationship. The Nazi Regime "employed", so to speak, private entities into supporting the war economy, and in return those were rewarded with steady income, and often cheap, or free (slave)labor.
 

tstorm823

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If you acknowledge that then its even less a point to say that nazi germany was socialist since it means you realize that to some extent everyone is.
I actually think that makes it rather more important. It's a dangerous game when people think they can look at specific economic systems and identify good or evil from those terms. The denial by socialists that Nazism involved socialism is just blatant ideological loyalty.
 

Trunkage

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I actually think that makes it rather more important. It's a dangerous game when people think they can look at specific economic systems and identify good or evil from those terms. The denial by socialists that Nazism involved socialism is just blatant ideological loyalty.
The denial of Capitalists that Nazism was Capitalism is just blatant the ideological loyalty

Edit: Here's a quick summation of the two economic strategies
Communism is about worker's rights over employer's (In fact the latter may not exist.)
Capitlism is about employee's rights over worker's

(Notice how Stalin or any other 'Communist' didn't do this at all. When people say "Communism hasn't been tried, they mean those leaders didn't even seem to pretend to follow Communist principles. At all. And to be fair, Capitalism is meant to be about everyone getting economic freedom not just employers... it just doesn't remotely do that. At all.)
 
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Agema

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Look at the variety of smart people who edit Capitalism to try and make it fit the world: Coase, Keynes, Schumpeter, Mises, Stieglitz, Friedman etc. It's like Adam Smith put on a piece of gladwrap onto top of food (the economy). It did fit at all, so all these other people pulled the glad wrap to cover their area without considering that they ripped it elsewhere. For example, Keynes General Theory doesnt mix well with the Chicago School at all, which can be seen in 2008 and the 1980s respectively. Or to Coase Externalities. And I personally think all these people do a terrible job at explaining how our economy works
Adam Smith drew some very general principles for what capitalism was and how it worked, but in terms of detail and manipulating policy to achieve ends, there was very little. That's what a lot of later economists were working on. After that, Keynes made no worse a job of explaining how the economy worked than a 1940s biologist would make an explanation of how the brain worked. Friedman made no worse a job of explaining how the economy worked than a 1970s biologist would make an explanation of how the brain works. And so on. Knowledge builds on knowledge. Theories replace theories, and everything is amended and argued over as it advances. No-one should be expecting Keynes or Friedman to provide best answers: they're decades out of date.
 
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Agema

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I actually think that makes it rather more important. It's a dangerous game when people think they can look at specific economic systems and identify good or evil from those terms. The denial by socialists that Nazism involved socialism is just blatant ideological loyalty.
There's a whole lot of difference between "The Nazis were socialists" and "The Nazis utilised some socialistic policies [like Western capitalist democracies also do]".

It's frankly dishonest to employ the latter as a defence that the former is accurate.
 

tstorm823

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The denial of Capitalists that Nazism was Capitalism is just blatant the ideological loyalty

Edit: Here's a quick summation of the two economic strategies
Communism is about worker's rights over employer's (In fact the latter may not exist.)
Capitlism is about employee's rights over worker's

(Notice how Stalin or any other 'Communist' didn't do this at all. When people say "Communism hasn't been tried, they mean those leaders didn't even seem to pretend to follow Communist principles. At all. And to be fair, Capitalism is meant to be about everyone getting economic freedom not just employers... it just doesn't remotely do that. At all.)
Nazis weren't communists at all. Communism might be about that, socialism is just an economic system.

There's a whole lot of difference between "The Nazis were socialists" and "The Nazis utilised some socialistic policies [like Western capitalist democracies also do]".

It's frankly dishonest to employ the latter as a defence that the former is accurate.
I didn't do that.

I said the US has utilized some socialist policies. I said the Nazis were socialists. I didn't say the Nazis were a mixed economy, I said private enterprise had no power at all under Nazi rule.
 

Aegix Drakan

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Usually cause it's followed with "...therefore the Nazi regime was left-wing."
Which itself is usually followed with "And therefore all left-wingers want to genocide everyone they disagree with", typically with the "and that's why they need to be cancelled/destroyed" connotation.
 
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tstorm823

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Usually cause it's followed with "...therefore the Nazi regime was left-wing."
Which itself is usually followed with "And therefore all left-wingers want to genocide everyone they disagree with", typically with the "and that's why they need to be cancelled/destroyed" connotation.
I know it's strange, but you're perfectly allowed to engage with arguments people are actually making instead of imaginary ones.

Nazis were socialist. They weren't left-wing. Neither right-wingers nor left-wingers nor socialists nor capitalists uniformly want to genocide everyone they disagree with.
 

MrCalavera

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I know it's strange, but you're perfectly allowed to engage with arguments people are actually making instead of imaginary ones.

Nazis were socialist. They weren't left-wing. Neither right-wingers nor left-wingers nor socialists nor capitalists uniformly want to genocide everyone they disagree with.
I was refering, in general, to arguments made by some right-wingers, including these forums, that are very much NOT imaginary.
It's not always about you.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Silvanus, what exactly do you view as defining socialism, perhaps your definition is also why you and Escaraxe have such a huge disagreement in the Bernie/Biden thread.

What do you mean, "who was it formed in response to"? It was formed in part in response to the First World War and opposition to armistice, though it also grew from existing nationalist, militarist, and racist sentiments.
It was also formed in response to attempts by socialist parties to overthrow the government during the war and do not forget that Hitler associated the communists with ethnic Jews (As bad as the connection he made was).

I don't really know what you're talking about with a "game". The Nazi party was formed by avowed nationalists, and was violently hostile to workers' parties such as the SPD & KPD from the outset.
Oh, you mean the socialist parties?

Once again: you've shown examples of one extreme form of socialism leading to dictatorship. Non-dictatorial democratic socialist countries exist around the world.

How can I accomplish this, if you're just going to dismiss whatever examples I provide without explanation?
You're the one that brought up the Nordic countries as an example of socialist countries and without any examples of how, why am I not allowed to say they aren't with no examples of how? Your next response, since you brought them up, is to elaborate on how you see them as socialist. And it is not because I don't know anything about those countries, I want to hear you yourself define it.
 

Agema

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I said the US has utilized some socialist policies. I said the Nazis were socialists. I didn't say the Nazis were a mixed economy, I said private enterprise had no power at all under Nazi rule.
Oh, what a load of titanic bollocks.

The key, central notion of fascism was nationalism, therefore the only real ideology of the Nazis was that businesses worked to the benefit of the state. They took whatever policies from wherever that got the job they wanted done. Their headline opposition to capitalism was essentially just that big business was often international in scope, and therefore big companies and capitalists might end up serving the interests of other countries more than Germany's. (An irony that many of the small business owners backed the Nazis because they felt the big corporations had unfair advantages, but after taking power, the Nazis formed a cosy partnership with the big industrialists to the detriment of the small business owners).

What occurred In practice, outside top-down controls mostly for planning and conducting war, was that business was mostly left to do what it wanted and make profits as it had before Nazi rule. The Nazis were in fact great fans of private ownership, private enterprise and competition: they believed in social Darwinist style ideas, and so believed that they would harness the inventiveness and productivity of the German people to achieve greatness. The Nazis wanted something made, they put out a competitive tender and had businesses compete to win the contract (and the profits).

We might call places like China operating "state capitalism", where the state has extensive ownership of companies that then operate as independent, competing companies, but the Nazis didn't even have that: they left businesses with private owners, who could make extraordinary amounts of money from the profits.
 

tstorm823

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And you are still wrong on both accounts. Feel free to reply to my previous post at any time to explain how decidedly crony capitalist economic policies were in fact socialist.
Yeah, but that would take effort and I'm lazy. You argued that the government in power effectively making all economic decisions is therefore the opposite of socialism, and I could point out that isn't the opposite of socialism, and then you'd accuse me of confusing planned economies for socialism, and I'd point out you're the one overly narrowing definitions for your own purposes and in 20 posts you'd still never admit you said something wrong for purely ideological reasons... why bother?
I was refering, in general, to arguments made by some right-wingers, including these forums, that are very much NOT imaginary.
It's not always about you.
A) Replying to comments not on this forum is imagining your own argument instead of the one actually presented.
B) You were responding to a comment explicitly about me.
 

tstorm823

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Oh, what a load of titanic bollocks.

The key, central notion of fascism was nationalism, therefore the only real ideology of the Nazis was that businesses worked to the benefit of the state. They took whatever policies from wherever that got the job they wanted done. Their headline opposition to capitalism was essentially just that big business was often international in scope, and therefore big companies and capitalists might end up serving the interests of other countries more than Germany's. (An irony that many of the small business owners backed the Nazis because they felt the big corporations had unfair advantages, but after taking power, the Nazis formed a cosy partnership with the big industrialists to the detriment of the small business owners).

What occurred In practice, outside top-down controls mostly for planning and conducting war, was that business was mostly left to do what it wanted and make profits as it had before Nazi rule. The Nazis were in fact great fans of private ownership, private enterprise and competition: they believed in social Darwinist style ideas, and so believed that they would harness the inventiveness and productivity of the German people to achieve greatness. The Nazis wanted something made, they put out a competitive tender and had businesses compete to win the contract (and the profits).

We might call places like China operating "state capitalism", where the state has extensive ownership of companies that then operate as independent, competing companies, but the Nazis didn't even have that: they left businesses with private owners, who could make extraordinary amounts of money from the profits.
It's kind of you to preface your post with a tl;dr.

When someone uses the phrase "state capitalism", you can guarantee they've gone fully "No True Scotsman" on socialism.
 

Silvanus

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Silvanus, what exactly do you view as defining socialism, perhaps your definition is also why you and Escaraxe have such a huge disagreement in the Bernie/Biden thread.
It's an extremely broad term, but it's usually defined as an economic and political system that involves a high level of communal or worker control of industry (whether that be production in general, services, or utilities like rail, networking, infrastructure, mail etc). It also involves a commitment to flattening out wealth inequality as much as is practical, and providing a state-provided economic safety net (usually in the form of welfare).

So, quite a few democratic countries are run by socialist parties that have implemented some degree of the above. Communism is at the extreme end, and involves total communal control of the means of production (usually through the medium of the state... which usually doesn't do a very good job of acting in the communal interest in cases such as the USSR).


It was also formed in response to attempts by socialist parties to overthrow the government during the war and do not forget that Hitler associated the communists with ethnic Jews (As bad as the connection he made was).
Uhrm, yes, in part it was formed in response to a perceived threat from socialist parties, and figures like Liebknecht & Luxemburg. It was violently opposed to them.

Oh, you mean the socialist parties?
Yes, the SPD & KPD were socialist parties. What's your point, exactly? The violent opposition of the Nazis to the socialists demonstrates my point.

You're the one that brought up the Nordic countries as an example of socialist countries and without any examples of how, why am I not allowed to say they aren't with no examples of how? Your next response, since you brought them up, is to elaborate on how you see them as socialist. And it is not because I don't know anything about those countries, I want to hear you yourself define it.
I actually already elaborated on this. Widespread nationalisation, widespread public-sector employment, progressive tax systems aimed at wealth redistribution, broad unionisation and collective-bargaining, and a developed welfare state.
 

Hawki

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I thought this was a discussion about the US election, not capitalism vs. socialism?

Meh, whatever.

Edit: Also, aren't you a socialist, Ewok?
Ewoks seem more like anarchists to me.

Oh, and cannibals. 0_0

What I find funny about this whole thing is that the same people who routinely come out and say that Nazi is a meaningless term because 'you can call everything you don't like a Nazi!' will then spin right on their heels and and try to tie Nazi Germany with socialism.
Remember Saelune? She used the term willy nilly.

I can think that "Nazi" is thrown around too much, while also being aware that Nazism isn't socialism.
 
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