Labour Party Leaked Report & the Inquiry

Avnger

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You'd be surprised.

Edit: I am indeed looking into rifles and local community defense organizations, of the leftist sort since the NRA and sovereign citizens have gobbled up any alternative. That's all I want to say on a public forum.
That's actually great (non-sarcastic). The fact you've taken those steps is more than most would even consider. I've heard mention of the Socialist Rifle Association as an alternative in other places, but I've had no personal interaction or in depth research.
 

Specter Von Baren

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A) where did you get that
B) I hated that photo when it was took, Stalin refuses to wear deodorant or use soap and shampoo (he says that they're products for the bourgeoisie to feel superior to the proletariat), and the BO was immense.
I have my sources... Also... Papa Bear has a message for you. "Next time you try to kill someone with an electronic wok, make sure it's turned on."
 

SupahEwok

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I have my sources... Also... Papa Bear has a message for you. "Next time you try to kill someone with an electronic wok, make sure it's turned on."
Tell Mama Bear that next time he wants to make a threat, he should make sure his drapes are closed when he's partaking in his nocturnal activities. Also to take a shower and commandeer some Red Spice or something.
 

Seanchaidh

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We've only got so much of people's patience to persuade them, so much money to spend/invest, so much time to work on anything. Thus in every area of life, we have to pick our battles - and those who want to go far pick the ones they'll get most out of.
Only so much money, yes. And Keir Starmer decided to give away hundreds of thousands of pounds to people who were deliberately sabotaging the party from the inside and lying about it publicly.

 

Silvanus

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Only so much money, yes. And Keir Starmer decided to give away hundreds of thousands of pounds to people who were deliberately sabotaging the party from the inside and lying about it publicly.

The vast majority of the total cost-- 400,000 out of 580,000-- was in legal fees. A protracted court case would have cost immeasurably more.
 

Agema

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Only so much money, yes. And Keir Starmer decided to give away hundreds of thousands of pounds to people who were deliberately sabotaging the party from the inside and lying about it publicly.
As Silvanus said, that's mostly legal fees just to get to this point. Labour could then spend another few truckloads on a court case, with no guarantee of recouping those costs even if it won.

That's actually great (non-sarcastic). The fact you've taken those steps is more than most would even consider. I've heard mention of the Socialist Rifle Association as an alternative in other places, but I've had no personal interaction or in depth research.
The quickest way to secure gun control in the USA would be for socialists and black people to take up gun ownership en masse.
 

Tireseas

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As Silvanus said, that's mostly legal fees just to get to this point. Labour could then spend another few truckloads on a court case, with no guarantee of recouping those costs even if it won.
Something I was taught in law school: just because you're right doesn't mean it's worth the time, effort, and resources to prove it.

*puts on lawyer hat*

When I was doing civil litigation (I still technically do, but it's more on par with traffic tickets than torts, real property law, and breach of contract claims) a not unsubstantial amount of my job when intaking a client was to gauge the likelihood of success, determine the likely costs of litigation in terms of time and labor (aka attorney fees and expenses), and explain to them that in most cases, win or lose, they're going to be on the hook for those litigation costs often with no hope of recovery.

If the costs outweighed the potential damages and there wasn't a means of recouping those costs via an attorney fee provision (required in Washington in order to get Attorney fees and costs), then more likely than not i would convince the potential client to move on or look for other means of vindication.

If they said "costs don't matter" I recommended they be rejected because that was a sign that you were not dealing with a client who is going to be reasonable when you most need them to be or at the very least needs to get into a more economically rational state of mind before proceeding.

If they were looking for just something to force a quick settlement and there was favorable facts and an attorney fee provision to provide the necessary leverage in order to make it within everybody's interest to settle, then we'd take the case.

Because once you start litigation, the only way to stop is to dismiss (not always an option), settle (depends on the parties), or finish in the form of a judgment (which may not be enough in the end depending on the defendant) or just straight up losing. Litigation, even when you have an attorney and can afford them without issue, is a time-consuming, mentally and emotionally draining process on top of the financial costs. And those costs are substantial. The cost of a mediator alone (often required for civil litigation) can range from $5,000 to $20,000 per party per day depending on the nature of the claims and the expertise of the mediator, not accounting for each parties attorney fees. Trial costs for the cases we handled started at $20,000. And these weren't big clients. Most were small business people and landowners.

So when any non-government person (individual or entity) settles, my automatic presumption is "the parties came to their senses and did the math," not that either side was right or just in their approach.
 
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Baffle

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I am immensely disappointed about the state of the Labour party right now. Don't know what to do, really. Just sick of the UK and that being a viable opposition appears to involve being a dick.

They suck you in with years of pension contributions to the worst pension in Europe, then they've got you, because you can have the worst pension in Europe or you can have fuck all.
 

Agema

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I am immensely disappointed about the state of the Labour party right now. Don't know what to do, really. Just sick of the UK and that being a viable opposition appears to involve being a dick.
Stick with it.

Like the leader of Momentum said, if you all quit the party in disappointment, you've got nothing. Stay in it and you can push for policy, keep the pressure on to maintain good leftist values, keep leftist MPs being elected, and you will get some wins along the way. What you also need to bear in mind is that if Labour is restored to more general respectability, that drags the left of the party up with it too, and when a left candidate without Corbyn's baggage emerges, you've got a real shot.
 
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CM156

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Something I was taught in law school: just because you're right doesn't mean it's worth the time, effort, and resources to prove it.

*puts on lawyer hat*
If I may borrow your lawyer hat (mine is in the wash)...

In courts, what you know to be true is far less important than what you can prove to be true. And sometime, it's not worth the time to prove something true, even if it helps your case.

Also, gotta say that I'm loving that all my CLE is now digital. It makes it so much easier. I can sit in my pajamas and still keep up with legal developments.
 

Seanchaidh

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Stick with it.

Like the leader of Momentum said, if you all quit the party in disappointment, you've got nothing. Stay in it and you can push for policy, keep the pressure on to maintain good leftist values, keep leftist MPs being elected, and you will get some wins along the way. What you also need to bear in mind is that if Labour is restored to more general respectability, that drags the left of the party up with it too, and when a left candidate without Corbyn's baggage emerges, you've got a real shot.
Then they'll make up baggage about whoever else, amplify it and then receive a nice payout and apology if the party objects. If you're going to just let them win the argument over whatever fabricated bullshit is the flavor of the year to take down a real representative of workers whenever they're within striking distance of power, you'll never take power.

One could plausibly concede the argument on this one and then purge the party of any and all centrists so that at least there isn't the internal sabotage, but Labour's knight of the realm isn't doing that either.
 
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Tireseas

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If I may borrow your lawyer hat (mine is in the wash)...

In courts, what you know to be true is far less important than what you can prove to be true. And sometime, it's not worth the time to prove something true, even if it helps your case.
That's true, but the place to weed out the headaches and the lost causes I've generally found to be in the intake period. Discovery might turn up a pile of gold, but if the client is problematic, whether in questioning or how they interact with you, it might not be worth it to the attorney.
Also, gotta say that I'm loving that all my CLE is now digital. It makes it so much easier. I can sit in my pajamas and still keep up with legal developments.
Most of Washington's CLEs were online broadcasts for the last several years, so I've attended like 5-6 credit hours of my CLEs in person in the last two years. The rest have been from the comfort of my home office in my PJs. And that's not counting the pre-recorded ones. I could meet my CLE requirements for the next two years by paying just $400 and taking a long weekend, which I might if the next stimulus passes... Been a while since I did a good business law update for my clients.
 
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CM156

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but if the client is problematic, whether in questioning or how they interact with you, it might not be worth it to the attorney.
I'm very glad my job does not require me to speak to clients. Or screen them. I did that as an undergrad clerk.
There's more than one occasion where I would have pressed a silent alarm, if I had one.
 

meiam

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I am immensely disappointed about the state of the Labour party right now. Don't know what to do, really. Just sick of the UK and that being a viable opposition appears to involve being a dick.

They suck you in with years of pension contributions to the worst pension in Europe, then they've got you, because you can have the worst pension in Europe or you can have fuck all.
Labour is polling way better at the moment than they did in the last general election or the years before it. It's pretty clear that you might dislike the current party but the public at large prefer it much more than they did momentum version. So the question isn't current labour or momentum labour but more current labour or conservative.
 

Baffle

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Labour is polling way better at the moment than they did in the last general election or the years before it. It's pretty clear that you might dislike the current party but the public at large prefer it much more than they did momentum version. So the question isn't current labour or momentum labour but more current labour or conservative.
Yeah, but the public at large would also like us to sink dinghies full of children in the English Channel, so it's not a great barometer.
 
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Silvanus

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Then they'll make up baggage about whoever else, amplify it and then receive a nice payout and apology if the party objects. If you're going to just let them win the argument over whatever fabricated bullshit is the flavor of the year to take down a real representative of workers whenever they're within striking distance of power, you'll never take power.
The reason this particular scandal had the legs that it did was because there was something there. It was not simply the product of invention.

There was a high level of abuse of Jewish members. There was a history of politicians making appearances alongside very questionable or antisemitic figures. And there was a terrible, terrible media strategy in place, with Corbyn seeming to treat any interview question as an imposition on his time.

Some accusations were nonsense (the one about Labour not adopting the IHRA's definitions and examples comes to mind). But the baggage existed. The press wholesale fabricates bullshit all the time; some of it sticks for a little while. None of it lasts as long as this, because there's a material difference.

One could plausibly concede the argument on this one and then purge the party of any and all centrists so that at least there isn't the internal sabotage, but Labour's knight of the realm isn't doing that either.
I suspect you're being facetious, but on the off-chance: this is utterly implausible. Leaving aside the fact that "centrists" and centre-right Labour MPs were compromised by the antisemitism scandal as well, and that it didn't really fall along Left-Centre-Right lines; leaving aside the fact that the majority of "centrist" Labour MPs aren't guilty or even accused of sabotage.

Leaving aside all that, doing so would guarantee decades of self-destructive infighting, just at the moment when there seems to be a possibility it might come to an end.

Keir Starmer's voting record is extremely close to Corbyn's. And yet from what I've seen, there's a vocal subset of Corbyn supporters who see him as a betrayal of everything Corbyn stood for. His strategic decisions thus far have largely been sound; he's performed much more effectively in managing the media and debating the government in the Commons; and politically he doesn't even represent a major change from Corbyn.
 

Agema

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Then they'll make up baggage about whoever else, amplify it and then receive a nice payout and apology if the party objects. If you're going to just let them win the argument over whatever fabricated bullshit is the flavor of the year to take down a real representative of workers whenever they're within striking distance of power, you'll never take power.
Corbyn had a ton of baggage which leftists don't need to. There are years meeting and conversing with and terming as "friends" extremist organisations. I know this isn't "supporting" them, but it's easy to portray as supporting them, which then ties into a lot of further left anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist leftist. You and I and other people familiar with typical socialist talking points can buy that stuff, but the bulk of the British left wing don't have an intellectualised socialist understanding of geopolitics, and they can be really quite nationalist, so it just looks like a naive lefty pallying up to terrorists. He came across as weak and ineffectual. Again, we might complain about the myths of strong leaders, but someone who won't get themselves forward and at least look like they have shit in order will take punishment.

I mean, where did Labour get most hammered? Heavily working class communities. When one of your key demographics neither respects nor trusts your candidate, you're boned.

Sure, your opponents wil exploit any weakness. But you can have a candidate that doesn't gift them so many open goals to shoot at.
 

Baffle

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I mean, where did Labour get most hammered? Heavily working class communities. When one of your key demographics neither respects nor trusts your candidate, you're boned.
Yeah, but those working class communities are actually pretty right-wing, certainly here. I was at the Newcastle BLM rally that kicked off - Nazi salutes and 'white lives matter' all over the place. Just a bunch of white supremacy statue nonces.
 

Agema

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Yeah, but those working class communities are actually pretty right-wing, certainly here. I was at the Newcastle BLM rally that kicked off - Nazi salutes and 'white lives matter' all over the place. Just a bunch of white supremacy statue nonces.
They are indeed often nationalist and conservative. That's part of the problem trying to marry them to metropolitan liberals as an electoral alliance, because they might be somewhat near the same page in economic policy, they can be reading completely different books in other ways.

That said, I think nationalism is the last refuge of the frustrated and defeated, who have been failed by everything else. If they had secure, better paid jobs and felt more positive and respected, I suspect they'd be a lot less bothered about immigrants and the EU.
 

Baffle

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If they had secure, better paid jobs and felt more positive and respected, I suspect they'd be a lot less bothered about immigrants and the EU.
I'm sure you're right. I live close to Blyth, which is one of the towns that turned blue in the last election. It's a dump - people literally have security shutters on their doors and windows (this isn't a common feature, but pretty unusual however you look at it). There's been a heroin problem there for decades. It's a town that's been shat on for years - at least since the 80s. Even walking around there fills me with a deep sense of hopelessness. I could've bought a 3-bed terrace there for 35K last year - probably less now. It's just so utterly hopeless, but the people who live there have been convinced it's the fault of someone other than the government. And they're happy to lash out at those people.