Well, for one we don't know much about the law in a few centuries time. Though I think the idea with that episode is that Picard realised that it shouldn't be a legal matter anyway and cast enough doubt that the judge didn't fully disagree.
Why is Star Trek so popular?
- Thread starter Hawki
- Start date
I mean, I think that's intentional. Although it's the official purpose of the trial, they're not really debating whether Data is sentient or conscious. Maddox is using that argument as a pretext or excuse to get what he wants, but even then he is lying to himself.
In reality, they're debating what type or class of person he is. That's why the emotional turning point of the episode is Guinan's speech to Picard about "disposable people." Picard doesn't win because he proves beyond a doubt Data is sentient, he wins because he proves that it doesn't matter. The mere conceptual possibility of slavery overrides any doubts about whether Data is actually sentient (which, I would argue, is the only real way to apply the Turing test, even if it's not what Turing himself intended).
It's not how real law works, but I think it's a pleasing fantasy of how law could work.
Also, yay for Star Trek Picard just outright shitting on that episode for edgelord points.
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Yes, that is the only good argumentation in the whole episode.
It is not something i really agree with as artificial intelligence does not have to have the same desires as humans do, but nearly all advanced Star Trek AIs do imitate humans so that is a moot point.
But mostly the whole tribunal should have been about classificating Data.
I was actually going to look up Legal Eagle to see what he would say about this episode but... I got lazy. (I only watch his stuff irregularly. I haven’t watched this yet)
Edit: As to the 45 mins, they spend at least 20 mins on setting up the situation. This could of been condensed and the trial lengthened. The issue is whether the trial could have maintained a level of interest for a lengthy period
I have seen Picard, and I think its because of the
eventual catalyst for the show: Starfleet has been using synthetics - or synths - as a kind of automated labor force at Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards on Mars. And the Romulans have an unseen and unmentioned until now sect deep within the Tal Shiar who are psychotically anti-synthetic life who perform a hack attack that causes the synths to go bonkers and blow up the ship yards.
Of course I only think that's what it is; I won't presume to speak on BT's behalf. I personally don't see edge-lord points but I'm then I'm a hopeless mutant who somehow doesn't see the downfall of civilization hidden between the lines of Steven Universe or whatever new cartoon comes out so I don't know anymore. Perhaps I'm just stupid and liked Star Trek because not falling asleep by the end made me feel smarter than I am and all this nuance and failures by the new writers just goes right over my head.
A major plot point in Picard is the Federation using synths (androids) for menial labour. The synths are generally depicted as creepy and weird, and the humans generally mock and abuse them within earshot because that's what the Federation is like.
But again, this is a series where a character calls Picard out for being privileged because he lives on a vinyard, because it's not like the federation is a post-scarcity society and everyone can live on a vinyard if they want to. No, Star Trek is a gritty serious franchise where everyone is terrible and cruel and where people live in poverty and there's constant violence and horrible imagery of people's eyes being torn out. That's what Star Trek is about, right?
This probably sounds like I'm hating on the show because they changed it. Put it this way, if Bryan Fuller had been allowed to show-run Star Trek Discovery with the budget and time that he wanted, I'd have been so excited. I'd be hyped up to see a darker, more adult Star Trek because I know Fuller is someone who would put real thought into it. As it is, what we got is just Game of Thrones in space, and that stopped being a compliment a long time ago.
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Well, when you put it like THAT...
Yeah, like I've said, I'm not a purist, but I can understand why ST fans might like Discovery, and from the sound of things, Picard is another deviation from the norm. It does seem to fit into what I've been saying though, that Star Trek is a mirror to the time period it's produced in, in this case, general anxiety about the future.
Well there have always been hints at the dark side of the Federation. TNG especially had several episodes that showed (usually Admirals, but other various Federation officials) of having very bad, dangerous, tyrannical views. And the episode would pivot around the fact that the character had the authority to act in that way, until the Enterprise crew revealed them.
The best example of this is the Drumhead episode from TNG. Which is flat out a McCarthy-esque witch hunt, run by a well respected and senior judge of the Federation. And the whole thing boils down to Picard pointing out that she is being tyrannical and conspiracy mad, and looking for spies in every one she sees. Warf jumps on board to help her, and drafts an entire portion of the security team to basically act like thugs at the behest of the insane judge. And nothing stops her, until the....whoever the higher ranking person was above her, saw the proceedings, and realized they were a sham, and just walked out. He didn't arrest her, he didn't strip her of her position (not on screen anyway, it might've happened later), he just....left. And the trial just ends.
The episode lesson is straight up about how that kind of insanity can creep in, and take hold, and if we aren't careful, and vigilant against it, it can grow and fester.
So, while I don't LIKE the fact that Picard went that route with the show, in my head canon, I basically just say that the Federation of the time that Picard takes place in, is one where people like that Judge, have controlling sway over the Federation. And that they have had such control for many years, and have slowly, and patiently, changed laws, and jerrymandered galactic districts, and re-worded legal definitions to skirt around oversight, etc. And boom, you now have the Shit Federation of Picard.
So it's hardly without precedent, given the multiple episodes that have the plot be "The Federation Isn't Perfect, and There Are Still Assholes In It". I just think it makes for a depressing setup for a STAR TREK show. Which has historically been about a positive outlook on the future, where yes, sometimes bad things, and bad people get into power. But through intelligence, cooperation and reasoned debate (and maybe some fighting from time to time), the good of the overall society will prevail. And that's just not the setting of Picard. That concept of the future, has been completely subplanted with " 'Murica But In Space!" level of social unrest.
And again, it's not like there isn't historical precedent for long standing political societies, to have periods of chaos and unrest/disruption/corruption, on a scale that sets the entire society on the edge of open violence and revolt. I mean, fuck just look around right now. You don't even have to crack open a textbook for that.
Still isn't a very FUN setting for Star Trek for me. I get enough shitty, depressing worlds in the one I live in. I like the idea of being able to watch a show, that has the theme of "eventually we will get better, that the shit IRL isn't a permanent thing. Eventually, we can overcome, and this is how it might look." It was re-affirming, a nice balm of optimism, which I think is a good thing.
But the people behind Picard, apparently disagree.
IRL, yes indeed. Which is why I don't think it's out of theme for Picard to depict the Federation like that. There is precedence in-universe, and IRL for this thing happening.Think it's been doing that for awhile now.
The fact that the WENT there, is what I personally have an issue with, because while they always hinted at it, it was nothing more than an episodic threat, not an institutionalized problem. So it's changed the entire mood of the setting, to one that isn't about optimism, but instead about the "dark grittiness", which just isn't what I want out of Star Trek.
Alrighty ST Lore Hounds. I got something I don't understand.
Just watched an episode with a genetical constructed human society. Wouldn't this be illegal under Federation law? I remember Bashir being in huge trouble for something similar. Shouldn't the whole planet be in jail?
Just watched an episode with a genetical constructed human society. Wouldn't this be illegal under Federation law? I remember Bashir being in huge trouble for something similar. Shouldn't the whole planet be in jail?
Can you provide the episode name and which show it was on? I don't really have all the episodes memorized by vague plot description. Hell I rarely remember them by name most days.
I believe in that episode, the colonists aren't part of the Federation. They either left human space before the federation was formed, or simply cut ties with the federation.
Genetic engineering is used a lot in Star Trek and is entirely okay provided there is a medical need. What's illegal is genetic enhancement, trying to use genetic engineering to create people with improved abilities. This stems from the eugenics wars, which were a series of wars on earth where genetically enhanced superhumans took control of some of the governments of earth and waged wars against each other.
Doctor Bashir was not very able as a child so his parents, believing he would have a better life, sent him for illegal gene therapy which made him more intelligent.
The main issue with genetic engineering is that its effects are not well understood even in the Federation. Often genetically enhanced humans have psychological or social problems which, given their superhuman abilities, can be very dangerous or just debilitating.
That episode's society does not have genetic enhancement, just a society wide controlled breeding program.
Yeah that colony is described as being an "unknown colony", that isn't part of the Federation. So they don't really have any jurisdiction to shut them down or anything.
Farscape is Firefly for people with fetishes.
Honestly, the "rogue flag officer/high-ranking bureaucrat acts like a dipshit" cliche is pretty common among most of Trek. That's why I consider the best example of what you're talking about to be the Eddington arc in DS9.
Because Eddington was right. The Maquis did have legitimate grievances against the Federation, and the Federation is insidiously subversive in its diplomacy. Hell, this was something Sisko called out himself in "Emissary" when Picard gave him his mission of doing anything in his power to ensure Bajoran entrance into the Federation, the implication being to meddle in Bajoran politics.
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Weird, because the last thing I thought when watching Firefly was "wow, this is JUST like Farscape, but without kinky stuff." And, frankly Firely had some fetishes to it as well. Mrs. Reynolds and ....wow I can't remember her name, the Companion.
Well, think about it. The tonality and genre blend is different (Firefly is a space western, Farscape leans heavy into surrealism), but they're both largely character-driven ensemble sci-fi shows with a lot of the same story beats and themes, that leans heavily on humor.