Weeb revolt over trap censorship

[Trunkage]

Can anyone explain why traps has come back in force? I thought we dealt with this stuff in 2015? Or are we just doing a repeat year for all the new insults from that year?

Not attacking anyone, just defending people from wrong accusations.

I don’t know whether this subreddit mods are being overzealous. I’m not on reddit anymore, so I can’t tell. You don’t go to reddit for discussion, you go there to get insulted. Policing that may be a fools errand but reddit seems to have had enough of some people’s shit and are cracking down. Very surprised it didn’t happen earlier because it certainly sent many people away

 

[Trunkage]

So, unrelated, it seems that we're only allowed 1 image per post and that the image also redacts from the amount of characters you can put in a post.

Are you putting it into the text box or using the image attachment button? Iron was able to put three images in

 

[Houseman]

So, unrelated, it seems that we're only allowed 1 image per post and that the image also detracts from the amount of characters you can put in a post.

You know what they say, an image is worth a thousand words.

More likely, it's the characters that make up the url, unless you're just uploading these images directly from your computer...

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Can anyone explain why traps has come back in force? I thought we dealt with this stuff in 2015? Or are we just doing a repeat year for all the new insults from that year?

The term never went away. The mainstream just forgot about it and the people that still used the term continued to use it and had their numbers replenished by the younger generation. Much like the games causing violence argument never went away, it just changed hands and fell out of the public eye for a time.

Are you putting it into the text box or using the image attachment button? Iron was able to put three images in

More likely, it's the characters that make up the url, unless you're just uploading these images directly from your computer...

I don't know. The Konata image was from my computer, while the Chargin Chuck and OK handsign images were from the internet. I couldn't post the two internet images together, nor with the Konata image.

You know what they say, an image is worth a thousand words.

 

[Trunkage]

The term never went away. The mainstream just forgot about it and the people that still used the term continued to use it and had their numbers replenished by the younger generation. Much like the games causing violence argument never went away, it just changed hands and fell out of the public eye for a time.

But THAT ‘discussion’ still rears it ugly head from time to time. It probably will with this too. I understand both sides of the argument. Many sides have been hurt. I’ve got no perfect solutions for you. You’re probably going to have to explain yourself like Dreiko did earlier each time.

 

[Worgen]

Dude, I was just gone for a few hours, what the hell happened to this thread?

 

[Houseman]

Dude, I was just gone for a few hours, what the hell happened to this thread?

The same thing that happened to the word "trap".

 

[Worgen]

The same thing that happened to the word "trap".

It got trapped?

 

[Specter Von Baren]

But THAT ‘discussion’ still rears it ugly head from time to time. It probably will with this too. I understand both sides of the argument. Many sides have been hurt. I’ve got no perfect solutions for you. You’re probably going to have to explain yourself like Dreiko did earlier each time.

Eh, we've gone over it already, no need to retread it unless someone adds something new to the conversation.

Dude, I was just gone for a few hours, what the hell happened to this thread?

 

[Kae]

Citation needed because that sounds made-up.

Well I've already posted a video with the evidence, unfortunately twitter has taken it down the tweet but on October 18 of 2017 the former KKK grand wizard David Duke posted a tweet saying traps are gay, curiously the tweet of a seemingly innocuous meme was used to encourage trans-phobic behaviour, such as people calling for the killing of all trans people, unfortunately most articles talking about this had the Tweet embedded and since it was taken down it's no longer shown, but the video shows a screen-capture at 04:33, I do encourage you to watch it as it's by an actual trans-woman and better informed on the subject that I could ever possibly be as someone who's only tangentially related to the issue.

You yourself said it. Every word has the potential to be another theater of war. Every word has the potential to be taken over by malicious actors who want to try and use it for their own benefit.

So what is one to do? Just roll over? Let them take something fun and innocent and turn it into a weapon?

Here's the thing, for this argument to hold any water the term trap would need to be "fun and innocent" and in reality it's never really been such a thing, it's always been loaded edgy humour, I've already said this and I'm going to be repeating it again since you seem to be incapable of reading what my previous posts, but the term trap inherently implies that the person isn't a woman and that they're out to trick men into thinking that they are, this is already troublesome because of two things, while it can be used to refer to cross-dressers it's often used to refer to anime characters that are explicitly trans in the text of the story even such as Felix from Re:Zero and Lily from Zombie Land Saga, meaning that their gender is called into question which isn't great, second it implies that both trans-women and cross-dressers are out to rape straight men by tricking them into having sex with them, which is a very widely held trans-phobic stereotype, so while you might like the joke it isn't and has never been innocent.

What if I said that "weeb" was offensive? What if I said that terrorist groups like ISIS uses the word "weeb"? What if I said that roving bands of "weeb hunters" go around killing people at anime conventions? What if I said that 1000s of suicides are caused every year from "weeb-related bullying?"

You'd tell me to stop making things up and go away, right?

Good. That's what you're supposed to do. You resist. You say "No, I won't let you. You don't get to do this. It stops here."

Here's the thing though, if it were true it would be something to consider, as it would make the people that continue using it more visible by removing the normality of the term and therefore easier to spot these killers, I've already explained this in a previous post.

When people try to "gaslight" you and tell you that up is down and left is right, you tell them to peddle their snake oil somewhere else.

When people gaslight you, sure but there's such a thing as turning a blind eye to a legitimate problem just because it's not your problem, which is what's going on here, if you're too lazy to actually investigate it that's perfectly fine but you don't get to call the issue fake when you're not putting any effort into disproving it.

Language only becomes weaponized and politicized because people roll over and let it happen. If there had been a world-wide push-back to change the swastika back into its original meaning, it would have worked. You talk about it like it's a lost cause, but it never was. You just lost. They created an enduring symbol of hate for others to rally around, and this was allowed to happen because nobody fought back against it.

Incorrect my dear Houseman, language is always political, the words we choose for every sentence are meant to have a purpose to incite a specific reaction, for example if I were to make my wording more aggressive, adding in insults and derogatory terms this post would have a completely different meaning and would be taken less seriously, if I were to use more humour it would take into a different meaning, every word we use has an inherent political meaning and sometimes that meaning is out of our control, you may be unaware of the negative connotations of the word trap and use it, and that's fine but if it already means something negative to people you'll be unable to escape that, this is simply the way language works, nothing more nothing less.

People have been arguing over these kinds of things for centuries, yet inevitably language always changes.

 

[Kae]

Eh, we've gone over it already, no need to retread it unless someone adds something new to the conversation.



View attachment 549

LOL I went to sleep and woke up and thought the same thing.

 

[Mister Mumbler]

My rather wet blanket contribution to this trap discussion, is that I'm fairly certain that it has be used in more mainstream type settings. While I do love Cowboy Bebop and One Punch Man, and outside of the prerequisite Pokemon/Dragon Ball growing up, never dabbled in the anime type stuff or humor (outside of TFS) and even I knew what a trap was.

 

[Houseman]

t but on October 18 of 2017 the former KKK grand wizard David Duke posted a tweet saying traps are gay

That's....just an internet joke. "Are traps gay?" or "is it gay to like traps?" And the answer is either "Traps are gay/traps aren't gay".
That's literally the whole joke. There's nothing -phobic about it.

That's like saying "The KKK thinks that the dress is white and gold, therefore this 'what color is the dress' meme is bad now!"
If some idiot wants to say "KILL EVERYONE WHO THINKS THE DRESS IS BLUE AND BLACK!" then that person is an idiot. It's not the fault of the meme.

I mean sure, you proved that the KKK "used it", in that they participated in the same joke that a lot of other people did, a joke that, may I remind you, has nothing disparaging about it, but I thought it was something more substantial than that. I am underwhelmed.

but the term trap inherently implies that the person isn't a woman and that they're out to trick men into thinking that they are, this is already troublesome because of two things, while it can be used to refer to cross-dressers it's often used to refer to anime characters that are explicitly trans in the text of the story even such as Felix from Re:Zero and Lily from Zombie Land Saga, meaning that their gender is called into question which isn't great, second it implies that both trans-women and cross-dressers are out to rape straight men by tricking them into having sex with them, which is a very widely held trans-phobic stereotype, so while you might like the joke it isn't and has never been innocent.

This is historical revisionism. Trap is, and always has been, distinct from "trans", so it can't possibly be trans-phobic. Traps are necessarily male, and always consider themselves male.

- Felix is not "explicitly trans", "in the text of the story" or otherwise. He is explicitly referred to as "male", in the show, without dispute.
Here's an interview with the author that confirms this

- People who call Lily a trap are simply misusing the word, because traps need to identify as male.

 

[Houseman]

Nobody calls someone's "gender" into question if they are a trap. By virtue of being a trap, their gender is known. That gender is "male".

It does not "imply that both trans-women..." for the reasons above, "...and cross-dressers are out to rape straight men by tricking them into having sex with them". At worst, they're "tricking" straight men into finding them attractive. At best, they're living their own lives and the joke is on the straight man for falling for a cute guy. The straight man is the one who is "trapped", it is not necessarily the cute guy who does the "trapping". This is what Dreiko said in post #46. Nobody is accusing the cute guy of anything, the straight guy is the one who is the butt of the joke.

This is also reflected in internet culture. People will post a picture of an attractive figure from behind, and then more pictures will gradually reveal that it's a guy. The joke is not on the subject of the photos, it's on the people who were enticed by them.

There is no such thing as "cross-dressers out to rape straight men by tricking them into having sex with them". That's not where the word came from, that's just a lie that was tacked on after the fact by people who still use VCRs.

Your beliefs on what the word means are not based in reality, they're just based on lies that people have told you, people who aren't a part of the anime, internet, or chan communities, people who are political activists and who become emotionally aroused by getting outraged over something.

Here's the thing though, if it were true it would be something to consider

Exactly. If it were true. But it's not. Just like what you think about the word "trap" isn't true.

if you're too lazy to actually investigate it that's perfectly fine but you don't get to call the issue fake when you're not putting any effort into disproving it.

I posted my evidence on page 1. I don't need to investigate squat, I know what it means. Do not cite the deep magic to me, I was there when it was written. You just watched a yotube video.

Incorrect my dear Houseman, language is always political, the words we choose for every sentence are meant to have a purpose to incite a specific reaction

Exactly. So don't tell us that the words we're using have purposes other than the ones we intend. We know what reactions we are intending to incite. They're our words. We're speaking them. Not you.

but if it already means something negative to people you'll be unable to escape that

There is actually an "escape" for that. You ignore those people, just like you ignore those people who would hypothetically get offended by knock-knock jokes, just because the KKK told one, once. Additionally, you tell those people that they are wrong, that they are being ridiculous, and if you really want to go the extra mile, you expose how wrong they are in a humorous and public manner.

People have been arguing over these kinds of things for centuries, yet inevitably language always changes.

I'm not against language changing. I'm against language being changed by malicious activists who need to do in order to produce dopamine.

 

[Dreiko]

A very good example. A bunch of trolls modifying a meaning to own the libs.

This still means ok.

People just use it because they know it triggers people who think it means something that is white supremacist or whatever (legit not sure what the accusation is, never bothered to find out as it's irrelevant) and they aren't trying to actually be white supremacist but just enjoy triggering people who think they do.

If you don't give that gesture the power to trigger you, people will stop trying to use it, because only people who are trying to trigger you or who want to say "ok" ever use it.


You have examples of people unconsciously making that gesture, or people who are making the meditative Buddhist gesture which looks a bit like it, and they get attacked as being white supremacists, and this is where you lose me and I have to defend the gesture so as to defend those people getting caught in the triggering crossfire.

Pretty sure he's not an alt-right racist.

(buddhist gestures are cool, here's a nice read if you wanna learn more about your favorite naruto hand seals: https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-complex-meanings-hand-gestures-buddhist-art )

 

[I can't enter my old name]

Trap is just the translation for "otoko no ko" which is not something from 4chan but rather 2chan in Japan.

I don't think trap comes from a translation. They are interchangable, but both originated indepentently to mean the same thing, like how "waifu" did not come from the joke "X wa ore no yome".

That's....just an internet joke. "Are traps gay?" or "is it gay to like traps?" And the answer is either "Traps are gay/traps aren't gay".
That's literally the whole joke. There's nothing -phobic about it.

It's homophobic at best, because the main character doesn't want to be viewed as gay because he is sexually attracted to someone who identifies as male and also has a penis.

But I don't believe that trap has anything to do with transgender women raping males, but rather it's trolling people by tricking them into being sexually aroused by a man. Now there are people who hate traps, but those people are more inclined to use the other 't-word'.

 

[Kae]

That's....just an internet joke. "Are traps gay?" or "is it gay to like traps?" And the answer is either "Traps are gay/traps aren't gay".
That's literally the whole joke. There's nothing -phobic about it.

That's like saying "The KKK thinks that the dress is white and gold, therefore this 'what color is the dress' meme is bad now!"
If some idiot wants to say "KILL EVERYONE WHO THINKS THE DRESS IS BLUE AND BLACK!" then that person is an idiot. It's not the fault of the meme.

I mean sure, you proved that the KKK "used it", in that they participated in the same joke that a lot of other people did, a joke that, may I remind you, has nothing disparaging about it, but I thought it was something more substantial than that. I am underwhelmed.

Ok, so let me ask you a question, why would David Duke would make such a joke if he isn't an anime fan?
Furthermore the bit about encouraging violence towards trans people came from his follower's response to the post, it's not an invention that was the genuine reaction people had to it.

So if it has no trans phobic meaning behind it at all, how come that's what the tweet communicated to people?
It was just an innocuous meme, right?

This is historical revisionism. Trap is, and always has been, distinct from "trans", so it can't possibly be trans-phobic. Traps are necessarily male, and always consider themselves male.

So you say, yet it isn't used exclusively for that.

- Felix is not "explicitly trans", "in the text of the story" or otherwise. He is explicitly referred to as "male", in the show, without dispute.
Here's an interview with the author that confirms this

That doesn't appear to say anything about the subject in question at all, but I'll admit that I'm not enough of a weeb to have actually read the light novel I'm supposed to use as evidence so I'll drop it.

- People who call Lily a trap are simply misusing the word, because traps need to identify as male.

Is it though? That's what you believe because of what you think that word means, yet the people using it are convinced they are using the term correctly, but let me ask you a question, if one uses a word and successfully communicates their message, even if the word wasn't originally intended for that isn't that technically a correct use of the word?
We can argue definitions and meanings but as long as communication is successful the language has been used correctly, that's how word's meanings come to change, we're arguing over the use of the word trap whose original definition has nothing to do with what we're currently discussing, so if we're going to argue semantics, meanings and definitions doesn't that automatically mean you are incorrect because it can't even mean a cute anime boy that looks like a girl?
Seriously if we're going to be pompous about strict definitions this discussion is over you are incorrect.

 

[Kae]

Nobody calls someone's "gender" into question if they are a trap. By virtue of being a trap, their gender is known. That gender is "male".

It does not "imply that both trans-women..." for the reasons above, "...and cross-dressers are out to rape straight men by tricking them into having sex with them". At worst, they're "tricking" straight men into finding them attractive. At best, they're living their own lives and the joke is on the straight man for falling for a cute guy. The straight man is the one who is "trapped", it is not necessarily the cute guy who does the "trapping". This is what Dreiko said in post #46. Nobody is accusing the cute guy of anything, the straight guy is the one who is the butt of the joke.

I just addressed this above.

This is also reflected in internet culture. People will post a picture of an attractive figure from behind, and then more pictures will gradually reveal that it's a guy. The joke is not on the subject of the photos, it's on the people who were enticed by them.

There is no such thing as "cross-dressers out to rape straight men by tricking them into having sex with them". That's not where the word came from, that's just a lie that was tacked on after the fact by people who still use VCRs.

I'm not saying it necessarily did but it fits ridiculously well into that narrative, so people who believe that have adopted it.

Your beliefs on what the word means are not based in reality, they're just based on lies that people have told you, people who aren't a part of the anime, internet, or chan communities, people who are political activists and who become emotionally aroused by getting outraged over something.

I just addressed this above[/quote]
I have provided my logic and reasoning on why I believe the word qualifies as a slur, if you wish to argue against it that's fine but I find it ironic that you're using that argument when all you can do is cite what the word means in Knowyourmeme and 4chan, by definition you're not in a better situation, the only difference is that I'm taking all evidence into account instead of simply being selective about what I wish to believe.

Exactly. If it were true. But it's not. Just like what you think about the word "trap" isn't true.

I have provided evidence that it's used as a slur, if you wish to be in denial that's fine but at this point it's basically a tantrum and not worth arguing further.

I posted my evidence on page 1. I don't need to investigate squat, I know what it means. Do not cite the deep magic to me, I was there when it was written. You just watched a yotube video.

Cool, it's good to know where the terminology came from, however all of which was also mentioned on the video by the way, a video I posted here well after I stated my opinions simply because I know I'm not the most comprehensive writer and I felt it illustrated my point far better than I did, it even gets right several things I have gotten wrong, because my opinion doesn't come from a video it comes from the fact that since I'm queer I talk to other queer people and they tell me about these things, that being said I'm not trans so I'm by not by any means an authority on the subject.

Exactly. So don't tell us that the words we're using have purposes other than the ones we intend. We know what reactions we are intending to incite. They're our words. We're speaking them. Not you.

Like I said it's fine if you wish to continue using it, I'm just saying that you're not just communicating what you wish, unfortunately the term has negative connotations.

There is actually an "escape" for that. You ignore those people, just like you ignore those people who would hypothetically get offended by knock-knock jokes, just because the KKK told one, once. Additionally, you tell those people that they are wrong, that they are being ridiculous, and if you really want to go the extra mile, you expose how wrong they are in a humorous and public manner.

It's not about whether the KKK said it or not, is what they managed to communicate with the simple use of that word without adding any other context.

I'm not against language changing. I'm against language being changed by malicious activists who need to do in order to produce dopamine.

You can project whatever you want, however be aware that if you continue to use a word people see as a trans slur it's likely people will think you are one.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

What is this Uzaki-chan thing?

Short answer: some people find her character design off putting, start making memes to that effect. Other people think she looks childlike, have dumb opinions. Weebs have no chill and decide it's a new front in the culture war. (There's some precursor drama about a blood-drive ad that the vast majority of people who don't follow anime drama YouTube accounts haven't heard off)

It's a "pineapple on pizza" argument about this season's annoying waifu that went stupid.

 

[McElroy]

Cause I really don't fully understand your point here.

Too bad.