Armed civilian, 17, shoots 2 dead during Kenosha happening

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Iron

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And if the police weren't a bunch of violent, amoral thugs there wouldn't be something to protest. We can keep kicking the can down the road, all it does is distract from the fact that 2 people were murdered by a stupid kid who wanted to play vigilante with an illegal firearm.
It wasn't illegal, though.
You'll get the full picture in a couple of weeks, and by then your opinion would solidify and something new will pop up. You wouldn't care to follow the case because you've already have him guilty in your mind. Me on the other hand would probably read about it, then shrug, and go on with my day, because I wouldn't care either way if he were guilty or not, or if he was in prison.
 

Buyetyen

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It wasn't illegal, though.
He was 17. He did not have a license for that gun, nor would he have qualified for it, nevermind the open carry license because he was under-age. And that's before we get into the laws about transporting firearms across state lines.

Me on the other hand would probably read about it, then shrug, and go on with my day, because I wouldn't care either way if he were guilty or not, or if he was in prison.
I'm not sure why you think this says anything positive about you.
 
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Houseman

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"The reasons are irrelevant." Never said that.
That's the gist I got from your last post, especially by saying "The day we excuse or explain away this kind of behavior, we set a dangerous precedent" and " people like Rittenhouse need to be held accountable for their actions and not expunged..."

So it sounds like you just want to string this person up by his thumbs, lest other people start getting ideas. You don't want anything "expunged" and you don't want to "explain" his behavior, lest other "MAGA" types start getting ideas.

That was my reasoning, but I'll believe you in that I was wrong about your intent with these phrases.

Answer me this directly: why did he leave his house with a rifle and go into the thick of the violence? What was he thinking? What was his intent? Of course you'll say we [as participants in an discussion over a developing situation] can't know, but rationally, why would someone arm themselves and go towards violence? What's the most logical answer to that direct question? Just saying, I've never grabbed a rifle to run to the grocery store or post office.
If we want to give him the benefit of the doubt (as the law would do), I'd say that he's going there to protect his family or friends, to protect the ideals that he believes in, or perhaps to flex and LARP like the people he sees in social media. You know, all the pictures of black guys standing around with guns, protecting their shops or whatnot.

If he wanted to go there and kill people, why did he need to be attacked first? Why didn't he just shoot the first person he saw?
 

Iron

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He was 17. He did not have a license for that gun, nor would he have qualified for it, nevermind the open carry license because he was under-age. And that's before we get into the laws about transporting firearms across state lines.



I'm not sure why you think this says anything positive about you.
It looks like the gun was owned by a friend of his. The friend was the one you see with him in some of the clips interviewing him, the guns are his and he's under his supervision. What I don't understand is how he got separated and found himself alone surrounded by protesters. Look I don't want to keep this shit up because there aren't enough details besides people googling state laws online and a lot of assumptions. At least I got a few clips of the kid, he seemed harmless. Besides the gun, of course, but I'm desensitized to M16s and M4s, so it didn't matter to me.
This is now a BIBIBIBIBIBIBI thread.
lel
 

Tsun Tzu

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Yeah, why stop just before we start thinking about the actions of the rioters?
What would have changed if the other guy hadn't fired first?
What would have changed if people didn't try to attack him?

Why focus just on what Rittenhouse did and ignore all these other people? Why stop there?
The guy killing multiple people is sort of easier to focus on, I'd imagine.

But yeah, this is still a confluence of decisions made in haste by fallible creatures. Extremely unfortunate all around, to put it lightly, and at the rate things have been going? With all the shootings, fires, assaults, etc. I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner...though a much less fatal version or two actually have, come to think of it.

Difficult to put myself in any of their positions too. 'Cause I just flat out wouldn't be in any of 'em.

Not even sure what he'll be charged with by the end of it, if anything at all. Manslaughter at the very least if charges manage to go through. Murder 2 seems probable, taking into account the situation, and barring a successful push for self-defense.

Would have been nice if all these people involved had just stayed home.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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If everyone went home before the curfew this wouldn't have happened
You know what's funny about this here is that it really lends credence to the whole "cops wanted this to happen and set it up for this result". Like, that curfew was specifically set up so they could blanket arrest any protestors out after it kicked on, and if there's one thing this past year has proven is that police love any opportunity to crack some skulls. Except here, it seems, they just stood back on the sidelines (and if that whole "Rittenhouse ran to a line a riot officers" thing turns out true) close enough to the action that they could have charged in and started arresting all of the curfew violators, but that wasn't going on.
 

Aegix Drakan

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I don't mind.
Duly noted, Ultron.

So, you keep saying this, but what makes you think that it's a reasonable assumption that he might kill more people? Let's pretend that you're the skateboard guy. What about this situation would make you think that he's going to attack someone else and needs to be stopped?

Is he firing indiscriminately into the crowd?
Is it looking and aiming at you? Is he aiming at anyone?
Is he heading into an orphanage?

Walk me through the thought process that would cause you, the skateboard guy, to believe that he's going to kill more people and needs to be stopped.
Alright.

Assuming I'm skateboard guy...

I live in a country where mass shootings happen regularly.
It's typically perpetuated by angry disgruntled white people with rifles.
It's often right wingers or people adjacent to them.

I'm at a protest against police brutality, something predominantly cared about by the left.
In comes this white kid punk with a rifle who clearly is opposed to the protests (and so is probably right-adjacent at least) and thinks walking around with a gun is a good idea.

HOLY SHIT, he just shot someone in the goddamn head.

He has a long gun with a magazine that's clearly got more ammo in it.

Putting all these facts together, I VERY MUCH would think that he's going to try to shoot more people. It's the assumption most likely to save lives in that exact second.

...The difference between skateboard guy and me is that I'm a coward (and not ashamed of that) and would instead run for my life going "ACTIVE SHOOTER! ACTIVE SHOOTER! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!" and dive for cover while perhaps calling the cops in some NAIVE hope that they'll care that there's an active shooter killing protesters and not secretly cheer.


And with that, it's the weekend for me, maybe see you all on monday. I'm going home to unplug entirely from politics so I don't go mad from frustration.
 

Iron

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You know what's funny about this here is that it really lends credence to the whole "cops wanted this to happen and set it up for this result". Like, that curfew was specifically set up so they could blanket arrest any protestors out after it kicked on, and if there's one thing this past year has proven is that police love any opportunity to crack some skulls. Except here, it seems, they just stood back on the sidelines (and if that whole "Rittenhouse ran to a line a riot officers" thing turns out true) close enough to the action that they could have charged in and started arresting all of the curfew violators, but that wasn't going on.
I don't think they planned on arresting everyone. It was a medium-sized town, I'd imagine their entire police force was out and about, they didn't have the manpower to handle it.
Yes, that's the problem.



Would have been even better if the cops weren't a bunch of bloodthirsty, incompetent class traitors.
>class traitors
Is this the real life
Or is it fantasy
Caught in a land-slide
No escape from reality

MOMMMMMAAAAAA
 

Mister Mumbler

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I don't think they planned on arresting everyone. It was a medium-sized town, I'd imagine their entire police force was out and about, they didn't have the manpower to handle it.
Govenor called in the NG, they had the manpower.
 
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Iron

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Govenor called in the NG, they had the manpower.
Oh, can you give me some more info on this? Maybe some sauce? I didn't know that. This happened during the 4th night of protests in the city, yeah? When did they get NG?
 

Houseman

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Alright.

Assuming I'm skateboard guy...

I live in a country where mass shootings happen regularly.
It's typically perpetuated by angry disgruntled white people with rifles.
It's often right wingers or people adjacent to them.

I'm at a protest against police brutality, something predominantly cared about by the left.
In comes this white kid punk with a rifle who clearly is opposed to the protests (and so is probably right-adjacent at least) and thinks walking around with a gun is a good idea.

HOLY SHIT, he just shot someone in the goddamn head.

He has a long gun with a magazine that's clearly got more ammo in it.

Putting all these facts together, I VERY MUCH would think that he's going to try to shoot more people. It's the assumption most likely to save lives in that exact second.
Okay sure. That seems plausible right at the moment he shoots somebody in the head.

But what about after those moments? What about when he was running away, clearly not shooting or even aiming at anybody else?
What makes you chase that guy down for maybe a dozen seconds or more?
Do you stop thinking right after he shoots the first person? Are you no longer processing new information after that point?

Because I think a that the defense would say "He was fleeing. He was not aiming at anybody. There was no earthly reason to believe that he was going to shoot anybody else. There were dozens of people in any direction, and he could have taken a shot at any of them, but he didn't. People were steps away from him, filming him, yet we don't see my client raise his gun at any of them. He took no action to harm anybody else until he was knocked down. So why did you chase after him?"

So please, continue with your line of reasoning, because where you stopped thinking was not the end of the story.
 
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Revnak

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“My client has spent most of his life not killing anyone, yet this monstrous skateboard armed thug attempted to disarm him of his friend’s legally owned firearm after just a singular murder. A tiny murder, truly insignificant when compared to a lifetime of not murdering. Clearly he was in the right to defend himself from this attack with a deadly children’s plaything.”
 

Mister Mumbler

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Oh, can you give me some more info on this? Maybe some sauce? I didn't know that. This happened during the 4th night of protests in the city, yeah? When did they get NG?
Yup, Eac posted about on pg4 of the original thread, here's an artile about it:
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...uard-called-out-after-police-shoot-black-man/

So it looks like the curfew and NG deployment happened at the same time.
They had the NG around the city in a more static type, which freed the actual police department up for enforcing the curfew.
 
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Revnak

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“The pictures I am about to show you are indeed disturbing. A broken arm, broken leg, swollen shins, please ignore the one of Tony Hawk doing an Indy 900 I don’t know how that got in there. As you can clearly see skateboards are a life threatening weapon that can be directly connected to an uncountable number of injuries. Look here at Bob Burnquist grinding into the Grand Canyon. If he had slipped just a moment earlier, if the wind had carried him just a bit closer to the canyon walls, he would be dead today.”
 
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Xprimentyl

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If we want to give him the benefit of the doubt (as the law would do), I'd say that he's going there to protect his family or friends
Protect his family and friends from violence 20 miles away? Was this a riot or a category 3 hurricane?

to protect the ideals that he believes in
Not his job or his right. One can't simply conscript oneself and take up arms for their personal beliefs when they're in no immediate danger.

or perhaps to flex and LARP like the people he sees in social media. You know, all the pictures of black guys standing around with guns, protecting their shops or whatnot.
I'll buy LARPing, more than likely the case, but I doubt he was inspired by any "black guys" he saw on social media; nice jab though.

If he wanted to go there and kill people, why did he need to be attacked first? Why didn't he just shoot the first person he saw?
Not saying he intended to kill people (as in outright murder,) but he was very much prepared to do so, he did so, and it wasn't his place or right.
 

Iron

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“The pictures I am about to show you are indeed disturbing. A broken arm, broken leg, swollen shins, please ignore the one of Tony Hawk doing an Indy 900 I don’t know how that got in there. As you can clearly see skateboards are a life threatening weapon that can be directly connected to an uncountable number of injuries. Look here at Bob Burnquist grinding into the Grand Canyon. If he had slipped just a moment earlier, if the wind had carried him just a bit closer to the canyon walls, he would be dead today.”
Dude c'mon
 

Houseman

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Protect his family and friends from violence 20 miles away? Was this a riot or a category 3 hurricane?
Yeah, perhaps he had family and friends in Kenosha. Perhaps they even invited him.

Not his job or his right.
I think it's every American's constitutionally protected right to bear arms and defend what they believe in, regardless of whether or not one is personally in danger. It's more complicated than that, of course, but that's the gist of it.

Nobody complained when the NFAC took up guns and showed them off. Nobody said it wasn't their job or their right.


source - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/07/michigan-lawmaker-armed-escort-rightwing-protest

Were these people standing up for their rights, or weren't they?
Was it their job, or wasn't it?

If you want to condemn him, you'd need to condemn these people too. If you praise them, you'd need to praise them both.

but he was very much prepared to do so
I'm not disputing that, just like I'm not disputing that hundreds of thousands of law-abiding citizens with weapon permits, and who carry guns on their person every day are also prepared to use their weapons, should the need arise. Just like the people pictured above were prepared to use their weapons.
 
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