Black Seventh Grader has Police Called for playing with his Zombie *Toy* Gun in His Own Home During Virtual Learning

[lil devils x]

I don't actually see anything about a police record in any of the articles. A 5-day suspension, yes.

12-year-old suspended over toy gun seen in virtual class

A 12-year old boy has been suspended for a toy gun he never brought to school.

kdvr.com

This article does mention his friend pointed the gun at the screen and pulled the trigger, but it was unclear if he knew it was even on? Maybe that's the distinguishing factor? Or race. I don't know. Common thread between the two cases seems to be overzealous teachers and police.

We can't exactly make a direct comparison here, considering they're in different cities, under different jurisdictions, have different officers and different school admins.

But, yeah, I agree. Fucked up. Shouldn't be doing this sort of thing to anyone, regardless of race.

It is literally quoted in the OP of the thread and in the article linked.

" Elliott’s son, Isaiah, was later suspended for five days and now has a record with the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office and a mark on his school disciplinary paperwork saying he brought a “facsimile of a firearm to school” — "

 

[Tsun Tzu]

It is literally quoted in the OP of the thread and in the article linked.

" Elliott’s son, Isaiah, was later suspended for five days and now has a record with the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office and a mark on his school disciplinary paperwork saying he brought a “facsimile of a firearm to school” — "

Oof, my bad. That'll teach me to skim.

That's definitely extra stupid and they should remove it.

 

[lil devils x]

I don't actually see anything about a police record in any of the articles. A 5-day suspension, yes.

12-year-old suspended over toy gun seen in virtual class

A 12-year old boy has been suspended for a toy gun he never brought to school.

kdvr.com

This article does mention his friend pointed the gun at the screen and pulled the trigger, but it was unclear if he knew it was even on? Maybe that's the distinguishing factor? Or race. I don't know. Common thread between the two cases seems to be overzealous teachers and police..

The article says this:

"the video shows his son sitting at home on his sofa when he momentarily picks up the toy gun on the right side of where he’s sitting and moves it to his left side, not realizing that in the process his teacher and fellow students saw him move the gun across the computer screen.

“Just flashed across the school computer screen for maybe one or two seconds at the most,” said Curtis Elliott."

Anything anyone else does isn't relevant to Elliot though. A 5 day suspension for this?A police record? Screwing up his ability to get scholarships, entry to universities, jobs in banking, finance, airlines and many others? A toy gun he can get at walmart he just moved out of the way.

 

[Houseman]

a record with the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office

That might be literally true, if "a record" is "a piece of paper regarding the incident", but actually misleading. When people think of "records" they think about "permanent records" and "criminal records".

Could these records possibly influence his future prospects? That's the real question.

For example, you said

They can still see it unless you pay to have it sealed.

What is "it"? A criminal juvenile record? Emphasis on criminal? Would this event in question appear on such a record? I really don't think so.
If every interaction with the police appeared on one's "record", then nobody would be able to find work.

I think you're just being mislead by the word "record".

 

[Tsun Tzu]

The article says this:

"the video shows his son sitting at home on his sofa when he momentarily picks up the toy gun on the right side of where he’s sitting and moves it to his left side, not realizing that in the process his teacher and fellow students saw him move the gun across the computer screen.

“Just flashed across the school computer screen for maybe one or two seconds at the most,” said Curtis Elliott."

Anything anyone else does isn't relevant to Elliot though. A 5 day suspension for this?

Well, it's in the article I linked, which was sourced in the OP article. Down at the end. Apparently that kid got a suspension too?

And...what? Sure it is. Was in his home with another kid who was also handling the "gun" in question. And he did the pointy thing. I don't see why it isn't relevant, considering it took place during the same event, at the same residence.

Now, should either of those instances have resulted in a police visit or suspensions? No. I don't think so. Just call the parents. The guns have an orange cap, ffs. If anything, pointing it at the camera would be making that more apparent.

 

[lil devils x]

Well, it's in the article I linked, which was sourced in the OP article. Down at the end. Apparently that kid got a suspension too?

And...what? Sure it is. Was in his home with another kid who was also handling the "gun" in question. And he did the pointy thing. I don't see why it isn't relevant, considering it took place during the same event, at the same residence.

Now, should either of those instances have resulted in a police visit or suspensions? No. I don't think so. Just call call the parents. The guns have an orange cap, ffs. If anything, pointing it at the camera would be making that more apparent.

Sure it is NOT. You can't legally hold one person responsible for another persons actions. That will not hold up in court. He will win a lawsuit against the school even attempting to do that. You can only hold the person responsible for their own actions legally. Elliot didn't do the pointy thing, he just moved the toy. The cops said the other kid did that. Legally you cannot even punish a kid at school for another kids actions if you have proof they didn't do anything. You can't even be aiding and abetting when there is no crime.

1)Besides NONE of this was illegal in the first place. 2) they weren't even at a school. This would be like a kid moving a fidget spinner from one side of his desk to the other. A warning to put the toys away during virtual learning would have been the appropriate action.

The dad said he was putting his kid in different school. I hope he sues the shit out of them tbh.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Sure it is NOT. You can't legally hold one person responsible for another persons actions. That will not hold up in court. He will win a lawsuit against the school even attempting to do that. You can only hold the person responsible for their own actions legally. Elliot didn't do the pointy thing, he just moved the toy. The cops said the other kid did that. Legally you cannot even punish a kid at school for another kids actions if you have proof they didn't do anything. You can't even be aiding and abetting when there is no crime.

1)Besides NONE of this was illegal in the first place. 2) they weren't even at a school. This would be like a kid moving a fidget spinner from one side of his desk to the other. A warning to put the toys away during virtual learning would have been the appropriate action.

The dad said he was putting his kid in different school. I hope he sues the shit out of them tbh.

Er, it's still relevant, considering what this whole thing was (extremely shakily) predicated on.

Really though, I kind of think we're agreeing here for the most part, but ya seem to think I'm not. I hope he sues 'em too. This is ridiculous.

 

[Houseman]

Sure it is NOT. You can't legally hold one person responsible for another persons actions. That will not hold up in court.

I'm curious, now I'm wondering if there is any legal oversight when it comes to suspensions, or if teachers are just given carte blanche to suspend students for any or no reason at all.

Here's the first result on google, for a different state

School Discipline Laws & Regulations by State & Category | Safe Supportive Learning

safesupportivelearning.ed.gov

"Authority to impose Suspensions and Expulsions is as follows:
(a) On-site Short-Term Suspension may only be authorized by the principal or a person designated by the Chancellor."

" "Short-Term Suspension"–on-site or off-site Suspension for one (1) to five (5) school days for Secondary students or one (1) to three (3) school days for Elementary students. "

So it seems like as long as the Principal signs off on it, short-term suspensions are fine. There's nothing about a Principal needing to justify his suspensions in front of a court of law. I mean, you can try, but you're kind of in the "misc. pain and suffering" Judge Judy kind of legal area.

 

[lil devils x]

I'm curious, now I'm wondering if there is any legal oversight when it comes to suspensions, or if teachers are just given carte blanche to suspend students for any or no reason at all.

Here's the first result on google, for a different state

School Discipline Laws & Regulations by State & Category | Safe Supportive Learning

safesupportivelearning.ed.gov

So it seems like as long as the Principal signs off on it, short-term suspensions are fine. There's nothing about a Principal needing to justify his suspensions in front of a court of law. I mean, you can try, but you're kind of in the "misc. pain and suffering" Judge Judy kind of legal area.

They will have to justify it in court if the parents actually sue them. In this case, they actually have a case. A kid having a police record and a disciplinary record for not breaking the law should be a problem for the school. He cannot be charged with having a 100% legal toy at the school when he wasn't at the school. He did not receive any prior warnings.. any judge is going to look at this and want to have a word with the principal wondering WTH they were thinking..

 

[Houseman]

I mean, the suspension would be over before the paperwork can even be looked over by a clerk, and would probably be more traumatizing for the kid, but sure, it could plausibly happen.

 

[lil devils x]

I mean, the suspension would be over before the paperwork can even be looked over by a clerk, and would probably be more traumatizing for the kid, but sure, it could plausibly happen.

The kid is already going to a different school, no harm to the kid but I hope dad makes sure his old school has hell to pay. Dad put him in a charter private school. Good for dad that he was able to do that.

If his old school was willing to treat the kid that bad, it was only going to get worse from there for him. It was good his dad got him out of there.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Maybe we shouldn't be teaching kids that guns are cool and fun and equate them to toys.
Maybe we should be teaching them to have an aversion to violence, not a propensity towards it.

Why are we surprised that, when we teach children that guns are cool and that shooting is fun, they grow up to join militias and end up shooting people in riots?

Rock n Roll needs to go too.

These people need to go to church and find God.

Oh, wait....

(And yes, this is in New York.)

 

[Fieldy409]

Turn this into a 2nd amendment issue and the American conservatives will go nuts on this too then everyones united. Point out to them that now apparently you can't even touch the guns in your own domicile while your kids doing their schooling online.

 

[lil devils x]

That might be literally true, if "a record" is "a piece of paper regarding the incident", but actually misleading. When people think of "records" they think about "permanent records" and "criminal records".

Could these records possibly influence his future prospects? That's the real question.

For example, you said



What is "it"? A criminal juvenile record? Emphasis on criminal? Would this event in question appear on such a record? I really don't think so.
If every interaction with the police appeared on one's "record", then nobody would be able to find work.

I think you're just being mislead by the word "record".

Even if it just has a record of them responding to a possible firearm at school, although this states that he was charged with having a facsimile of a firearm at school, but lets just pretend for a second that it is only a " possible firearm at a school" for the police call records that they just glance at while they browse through quickly when they run his name or registration in their system when he starts driving in 3 years and gets pulled over. Are they going to feel more or less threatened at a traffic stop? Are they going to think he could possibly be armed? Does this impact whether they decide to let the kid off with a warning or drum up as many charges as they can think of when they pull him over.. Pull that whole " your taillight looks a little pink " BS like they did on my friend Kim?

How about how he is treated at future school by future admin? Some schools have a lot of turnover in staff and you can have a different principal every damn year like some of the schools around here, even transferring to another school, they don't hear about what this was really about and just see " charged with Facsimile of a firearm at school" and that impacts how they choose to treat him for anything in the future that could arise, like say making a joke in class. This alone will influence how people view him as whether he is considered a " fine upstanding student" or a " troublemaker thug that brings guns to school".

Then we get into scholarship review boards. These are extremely competitive where they weigh every little thing the kid has ever done to gauge who will receive the scholarship and who will do without. They weigh every small detail including but not limited to: letters of recommendation, volunteer work, disciplinary records, police records, household income, neighborhood you live in, grades and test scores, extracurricular activities, whether or not your parents went to college, social media posts and so much more. Often you have thousands of kids competing for one scholarship, who all have outstanding academic records. One little thing like " facsimile of a firearm" could very well sink your chances. I went through a grueling process trying to obtain funding for school. I would not have been able to do so if it were not for the many local and national scholarships I received. You depend on scholarships from local businesses, schools and organizations in addition to those on the state and national level. If it were not for me obtaining scholarships from everyone from the " woman's league" the chamber of commerce, to local tire and golf shops it would not have happened.

Schools really need to consider what putting something like that on a child's disciplinary record means to that kid long term. We really should have more accountability in schools for something like this because they are wielding a great deal of power over children's lives and futures and frivolously charging kids with serious things like this can have a lasting impact that they are being able to burden children at will with without ramifications for their own thoughtless actions.

 

[Houseman]

Even if it just has a record of them responding to a possible firearm at school, although this states that he was charged with having a facsimile of a firearm at school, but lets just pretend for a second that it is only a " possible firearm at a school" for the police call records that they just glance at while they browse through quickly when they run his name or registration in their system

You're assuming that this even shows up "in their system", but even this is unlikely. This assumption is based on the belief that every encounter with the police is cataloged and ends up in some sort of database. I don't think that this is true.

For example, do you think that a similar record has also been made for each parent? For the teacher? For the Vice Principal? They were all involved. The officer spoke to all of them, eight persons in total. You think that information about this call will pop up on the computer whenever they get pulled over for an ordinary traffic stop? What would it say? "Was parent of a child who was suspected to have a possible firearm?" Very very unlikely.

I assure you, it doesn't work that way. No record of this incident is going to appear on the screen when he gets pulled over.

charged with Facsimile of a firearm at school

You keep saying "charged", but I think you're being mislead by this word too. "Charged" can be a scary word, just like "record" can be.
To "charge" merely means to accuse. It doesn't necessarily mean a "criminal charge". The school accused him of something. That's all what "charge" means in this context.

Now, could the SCHOOL keep some kind of record of their own and then show it to scholarship review boards and background checks later? This is much more likely to be true.

 

[lil devils x]

You're assuming that this even shows up "in their system", but even this is unlikely. This assumption is based on the belief that every encounter with the police is cataloged and ends up in some sort of database. I don't think that this is true.

For example, do you think that a similar record has also been made for each parent? For the teacher? For the Vice Principal? They were all involved. The officer spoke to all of them, eight persons in total. You think that information about this call will pop up on the computer whenever they get pulled over for an ordinary traffic stop? What would it say? "Was parent of a child who was suspected to have a possible firearm?" Very very unlikely.

I assure you, it doesn't work that way. No record of this incident is going to appear on the screen when he gets pulled over.



You keep saying "charged", but I think you're being mislead by this word too. "Charged" can be a scary word, just like "record" can be.
To "charge" merely means to accuse. It doesn't necessarily mean a "criminal charge". The school accused him of something. That's all what "charge" means in this context.

Now, could the SCHOOL keep some kind of record of their own and then show it to scholarship review boards and background checks later? This is much more likely to be true.

It is true. My uncle was a Rockwall sheriff remember? In Texas at least, they could see all sorts of stuff, just from the persons plates before even asking for their license. They can find the name, address, social security number and with that and then they can cross reference that information to access all previous interactions with that person and all police calls to that address even if there are no arrests made. They have the date of the interaction and a brief description. All of this on top of warrants, tickets and any convicted crimes. When they look up his address or his name this will still come up in the database due to the fact they had to search his residence for a firearm due to the school calling about a " possible firearm at school". They are treating this just like a kid bringing a fake gun to school like he was trying to terrorize or scare people, and there is no differentiation between that and what they charged this kid with.

The Teacher, principal, ect are not the " suspect" here. The kid is the suspect in this case. The police cannot go search anyone's house without having a report verifying probable cause here to cover their ass. The school actually filed a report of him bringing " what looked like a gun" to school , that was the "probable cause" for them to search the kids house. The police have to keep that on file to cover their asses in case anything the future comes up. The parents could sue. The school could "build a case" against a student using that report as part of evidence of "a pattern of behavior', if this involved a specific staff member or another student, they could use it to build a harassment or restraining order. EVERY report is kept for these reasons because it could be needed again. In Texas, police can pull that information up every time they enter that address or the suspects name from their vehicles. So every time the kid gets pulled over, that information will be available for police to view.

They actually keep all that information readily available for officers protection due to repeated domestic violence calls to residences so that the police are not caught off guard to what could be a dangerous situation. That way they have an idea what to expect before they knock on the door.

You are assuring wrong. Just ask a Texas cop. He was accused of bringing a "facsimile of a firearm to school" by the principal of that school. That is illegal as well as against school rules. They do that now under the new " terrorism laws" Without that report they wouldn't have been able to search his home.
Bringing a facsimile of a firearm to school is actually illegal:

Student arrested with facsimile gun at DeForest Area High School

A 15-year-old student was found with a facsimile handgun at DeForest Area High School and arrested Wednesday morning, Dec. 11, after reports of a recent theft that occurred during school

www.hngnews.com

Chapter 9.95 REPLICA FIREARMS

Village of Bellevue, MI: Facsimile Weapons and Firearms

Ch 100 Art III [Adopted 3-14-2006 by Ord. No. 2006-005] Definitions. As used in this article, the following terms shall have the meanings indicated: DISPLAY To brandish, point, exhibit, or show in a manner that a reasonable individual would perceive to be: In a t

ecode360.com

That is what the school actually charged him with, that was the reason they had probable cause to search his home and to suspend him.

 

[Houseman]

then they can cross reference that information to access all previous interactions with that person and all police calls to that address even if there are no arrests made. They have the date of the interaction and a brief description.

Do you have any evidence of this (that all this information is available during a traffic stop), besides your personal anecdote?

The school actually filed a report of him bringing " what looked like a gun" to school , that was the "probable cause" for them to search the kids house. The police have to keep that on file to cover their asses in case anything the future comes up.

I don't doubt that. What I doubt is that this will show up on an officer's laptop during a traffic stop.

 

[SupahEwok]

Sounds like the vice principal either being a ninny or wants to "set an example", tbh.

 

[Buyetyen]

Turn this into a 2nd amendment issue and the American conservatives will go nuts on this too then everyones united. Point out to them that now apparently you can't even touch the guns in your own domicile while your kids doing their schooling online.

You're not wrong. Know your audience.

 

[Cheetodust]

Yea and apparently that MUST mean he was a threat right?

That kid should try being white and middle class. You can straight up sexually assault a passed out girl by some dumpsters and a judge will worry about how that could affect YOUR life.