Biden v. Trump Election Mega Thread

[dreng3]

Technically it wasn't a Pandemic until late February.
It was a "Public health emergency" according to the WHO from I think it was January 12th but specifically NOT a pandemic.

Back in 2014 the president received briefings about ebola before it was even declared and outbreak by the WHO and advisors actually warned the president about it. So the US prepared themselves and projections were made, that's why the response to ebola was well handled.

You can't pretend that the current government wouldn't have received the same types of warnings, especially not when members of the public actually knew about covid in late december/ early january. The Trump administration bungled the preparation and the response. Heck, just look at Trump hosting his Tulsa rally, that was in june. Way past february, where covid was declared a pandemic.

 

[Exley97]

You mean this manual: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6819268/Pandemic-Playbook.pdf

Would you care to detail what aspect of that was ignored? If you care to skip to the declarations and mitigations section and notice, "hey! this all looks very familiar." Like, the manual you refer to isn't particularly huge, and was pretty much followed comprehensively and then some. And some of the things, like "support the country of outbreak in mitigating the spread" are things you've actively condemned Trump for doing.

It's. Wild.

If all you did was skip to the "declarations and mitigations" section, and you didn't read anything in between about proper communication and cooperation with federal agencies, public health organizations and other governments; clear, consistent and direct communication to public; and the importantance of ramping up early diagnostic testing/screening (just to name a few), and you ignored more than six months of revelations and admissions about how the Trump administration downplayed the threat; sought to hold back testing; and actively undermined state quarantine orders *at the height of the spring outbreak* (just to name a few) then....sure, you could make the ill-fated argument the Trump Administration followed the playbook, which... they claimed 1) didn't exist (but did), 2) they absolutely read (but didn't know coronavirus was mentioned as a threat on page fucking 9), and 3) they definitely followed (but later said they didn't and admitted they scrapped the playbook).

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Back in 2014 the president received briefings about ebola before it was even declared and outbreak by the WHO and advisors actually warned the president about it. So the US prepared themselves and projections were made, that's why the response to ebola was well handled.

You can't pretend that the current government wouldn't have received the same types of warnings, especially not when members of the public actually knew about covid in late december/ early january. The Trump administration bungled the preparation and the response. Heck, just look at Trump hosting his Tulsa rally, that was in june. Way past february, where covid was declared a pandemic.

Well problem is Ebola is known to be very contagious. It was being insisted until mid January it couldn't spread person to person (thanks to CCP claims) That's also part of the problem it was a new virus and people thought the risk of it was known enough about to say the risk was low

 

[Iron]

Why though?

It's fairly common for people to vote for a party or personality, with zero clue what issues they're pushing that election.

Does it piss you off to acknowledge that?

Do you do that? Or do you think you're better than "most people" and therefore that statement doesn't concern you?

 

[lil devils x]

Well problem is Ebola is known to be very contagious. It was being insisted until mid January it couldn't spread person to person (thanks to CCP claims) That's also part of the problem it was a new virus and people thought the risk of it was known enough about to say the risk was low

What are you talking about? Even the medical and scientific community in the US did not think the risk was low in December, how do you claim to have known this? Instead, people were become increasingly concerned from what they were hearing coming from the medical community in China IN December. You do realize The US has physicians and scientists IN China too don't you? People were talking about this in the medical community in December. That was why Germany started stockpiling PPE before anyone else did. They have physicians and scientists in China as well. This was not " unknown" to the medical and scientific community in December. Sure conservative media attempted to downplay it, that isn't what anyone else was doing. People have some seriously weird understandings on how things work with China. We have medical conferences there with Physicians and scientists from all over the world..

If The US had a dedicated Pandemic Response team like Germany had, they too would have been aware as well.

Hobbits... People act like the global scientific and medical community is somehow shut off from China. They are not. LOL

 

[Elijin]

Do you do that? Or do you think you're better than "most people" and therefore that statement doesn't concern you?

Well, that's complicated because I'm not American. We use preferential voting, and I will fully admit I sometimes dont know what issues the 3rd or 4th choice I'm making are campaigning on. I simply know they share similar values.

But more to the point, it's not even an insult. American politics have spent a long time with their 2 party system and people absolutely vote with their party, without any specific knowledge of what they're voting for. It's a problem that seems inbuilt to the way the two party system works there. They seem to work with the idea that poltical affiliation is less about that election cycle's issues and more about your "team".

Is that system flawed? Yes. Absolutely.
Still don't see why you'd be pissed at an individual for saying it out loud.

 

[Iron]

Well, that's complicated because I'm not American. We use preferential voting, and I will fully admit I sometimes dont know what issues the 3rd or 4th choice I'm making are campaigning on. I simply know they share similar values.

But more to the point, it's not even an insult. American politics have spent a long time with their 2 party system and people absolutely vote with their party, without any specific knowledge of what they're voting for. It's a problem that seems inbuilt to the way the two party system works there. They seem to work with the idea that poltical affiliation is less about that election cycle's issues and more about your "team".

Is that system flawed? Yes. Absolutely.
Still don't see why you'd be pissed at an individual for saying it out loud.

If I had told you that you are a "no-issue" voter and that you cast a ballot without any thought, would you be insulted?
I didn't even continue the conversation with him, there was nothing to add. I said it was disrespectful and he agreed with me. I don't understand why you'd be defending him or his point.

 

[Elijin]

If I had told you that you are a "no-issue" voter and that you cast a ballot without any thought, would you be insulted?
I didn't even continue the conversation with him, there was nothing to add. I said it was disrespectful and he agreed with me. I don't understand why you'd be defending him or his point.

Nope.
Either it's not true, so it doesnt bother me, or it's true, so it doesn't bother me.

It's not so much defending as confusion as to why someone voicing a common truth would upset you.

 

[Iron]

Nope.
Either it's not true, so it doesnt bother me, or it's true, so it doesn't bother me.

It's not so much defending as confusion as to why someone voicing a common truth would upset you.

You have a nice outlook on things.

 

[Trunkage]

Well problem is Ebola is known to be very contagious. It was being insisted until mid January it couldn't spread person to person (thanks to CCP claims) That's also part of the problem it was a new virus and people thought the risk of it was known enough about to say the risk was low

Yeah, China building 10 1000 bed hospitals per week was done because they thought Covid-19 was low risk.
But sure that happened on Feb 1. And it's thar evil China again. And once we made a decision, we can never change that decision

 

[Elijin]

You have a nice outlook on things.

I mean voting is by design a private process, which you don't have to share, justify or explain to others. I might not be so magnanimous with other accusations.

But my vote? It's my business and I'm not likely to get upset over someone else's accusations when I know what's true for me.

Plus, I live in a country with mandatory voting, so I guess Im just less shocked or offended at the idea people would zero issue vote.

 

[Iron]

Yeah, China building 10 1000 bed hospitals per week was done because they thought Covid-19 was low risk.
But sure that happened on Feb 1. And it's thar evil China again. And once we made a decision, we can never change that decision

China did that, and kept dozens of cities under lockdown, tens of millions of people, while it kept international flights operating.
It closed internal flights, while it kept international flights open.

Business News Today: Read Latest Business news, India Business News Live, Share Market & Economy News | The Economic Times

Business news today: Read India Business news Live. Latest Business news and updates on Finance, share market, IPO, economy. Discover Business News Headlines, Top Financial News and more on The Economic Times.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

China's Foreign Ministry has just accused the US of overreacting to the virus outbreak

A spokeswoman for China's Foreign Ministry castigated the United States for its response to the coronavirus outbreak, accusing Washington of responding inappropriately and feeding mass hysteria.

edition.cnn.com

A spokeswoman for China's Foreign Ministry said:
(bold and underline are my additions)
"
The US government hasn’t provided any substantial assistance to us, but it was the first to evacuate personnel from its consulate in Wuhan, the first to suggest partial withdrawal of its Embassy staff, and the first to impose a travel ban on Chinese travelers. All it has done could only create and spread fear, which is a bad example.

Even American media and experts doubted the government’s decision, saying that the US government’s restrictions on China are precisely what the WHO rejects, that the US is turning from overconfidence to fear and overreaction, and that banning the entry of foreigners who traveled to China in the past 14 days is suspected to be violating civil rights instead of reducing risks of virus spreading.
"
I can always trust the Indians not to scrub this since they aren't bought and paid shills by the CCP. I found this through an Indian news agency affiliated with bloomburg.
The rest is just a GOLDMINE and a nice time-travel tunnel to February 2020.

WHO board meeting February 3rd.

Report of the Director-General, 146th Meeting of the Executive Board

www.who.int

"
WHO has made several recommendations for all countries to prevent and limit the further spread of the virus.

First, there is no reason for measures that unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade.
...
"

Oh if you haven't seen what you're looking for then it's in the first link, apologies for not copying it here. Do a Ctrl+f for "travel".

 

[tstorm823]

Did you actually read this? What about canceling of public gatherings? Widespread use of PPE? Trump was still doing Rally's when he should have been doing this. You cannot have widespread use of PPE if he doesn't use the defense production act to supply it. His order to keep meat packing plants open without actually providing them the ability to keep the workers safe caused those workers to die.

That manual also describes what should have happened in December, January and February that never happened at all. Where is the consistent Fema response for all states effected right now? HHS response? CDC and HHS was supposed to take the lead here, but where stifled under Trump and his goons. Where is the state funding it says is needed that Trump didn't want to give because he wants to punish democrats? Trump is screaming "blue state bailouts" but reality shows us that red states receive more help than the blue states do. According to this manual the Feds are supposed to provide that support to the states, so WHERE IS IT?!

You call that following it comprehensively?!! Are you reading the same book?

Yes.

You're talking about what happened in January and February, but you aren't talking about what actually happened in January and February. Public health emeergency? Yup, that happened in January. Stafford Act, that happened in march. Development of tests and treatments, yup, that was going on. Screenings and travel restrictions? Yeah, that happened.

Funny thing. I read that document once. I skimmed it this morning. I ran it through a program to let me ctrl + f for things, and funny thing: I don't see any mention of the states needing federal funding. I see plenty of mention of informational support, a mention of moving patients with the national guard, I don't see anything about state funding. I don't see a mention of the Defense Production Act to produce PPE? The discussion of PPE in the playbook only questions whether the national stockpile should be opened. Yup, that was used. It didn't have enough. It likely would not have had enough even if it was maintained at prescribed levels because it wasn't planned for a year long emergency. Have you considered reading first?

 

[tstorm823]

If all you did was skip to the "declarations and mitigations" section, and you didn't read anything in between about proper communication and cooperation with federal agencies, public health organizations and other governments; clear, consistent and direct communication to public; and the importantance of ramping up early diagnostic testing/screening (just to name a few), and you ignored more than six months of revelations and admissions about how the Trump administration downplayed the threat; sought to hold back testing; and actively undermined state quarantine orders *at the height of the spring outbreak* (just to name a few) then....sure, you could make the ill-fated argument the Trump Administration followed the playbook, which... they claimed 1) didn't exist (but did), 2) they absolutely read (but didn't know coronavirus was mentioned as a threat on page fucking 9), and 3) they definitely followed (but later said they didn't and admitted they scrapped the playbook).

You don't know any of that. You don't know internal government communications. You can only judge what was done publicly, you're just deciding to believe that behind the scenes is a catastrophic mess.

 

[Agema]

You don't know any of that. You don't know internal government communications. You can only judge what was done publicly, you're just deciding to believe that behind the scenes is a catastrophic mess.

There's that saying never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity. So are you sure you want to argue it wasn't stupidity?

 

[dreng3]

There's that saying never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity. So are you sure you want to argue it wasn't stupidity?

With some of the actions taken I think it safe to assume that both malice and stupidity were involved, and in great amounts at that.

 

[Buyetyen]

With some of the actions taken I think it safe to assume that both malice and stupidity were involved, and in great amounts at that.

We can probably nominate Trump as the patron saint of malicious stupidity. His voters already worship him as a god anyway.

 

[lil devils x]

Yes.

You're talking about what happened in January and February, but you aren't talking about what actually happened in January and February. Public health emeergency? Yup, that happened in January. Stafford Act, that happened in march. Development of tests and treatments, yup, that was going on. Screenings and travel restrictions? Yeah, that happened.

Funny thing. I read that document once. I skimmed it this morning. I ran it through a program to let me ctrl + f for things, and funny thing: I don't see any mention of the states needing federal funding. I see plenty of mention of informational support, a mention of moving patients with the national guard, I don't see anything about state funding. I don't see a mention of the Defense Production Act to produce PPE? The discussion of PPE in the playbook only questions whether the national stockpile should be opened. Yup, that was used. It didn't have enough. It likely would not have had enough even if it was maintained at prescribed levels because it wasn't planned for a year long emergency. Have you considered reading first?

I just pulled everything I posted OUT OF THE DOCUMENT. So I m going to have to wonder WTH you are talking about here. It is like we are reading two different documents here when You can read it and pull something entirely different out of it than I did.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Yeah, China building 10 1000 bed hospitals per week was done because they thought Covid-19 was low risk.
But sure that happened on Feb 1. And it's thar evil China again. And once we made a decision, we can never change that decision

1) It was in Wuhan a lot of the work or the areas round there.

2) It COULD have just been a localised source of the illness. It's China who knows maybe a poisoned lot of rice or some cult doing a series of attacks on people using some unknown virus.


At the time some scientists were definitely saying to be on alert and prepare and such but WHO and others were saying to wasn't a threat at the time (this was mostly due to them getting a lot of criticism for the perceived over reaction to Bird Flu which turned out to be extremely mild.

 

[Silvanus]

Ah but the original start Apple had to design their stuff and be competent to get enough money to begin with to push their BS now.

Right, so it's enough for one's predecessors to be competent at some point. The model of meritocracy!

You mean this manual: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6819268/Pandemic-Playbook.pdf

Would you care to detail what aspect of that was ignored?

D'you want a list? I'll just have a quick peruse...

The US government international and domestic responses to evolving public health crises should be coordinated, as appropriate, through the NSC's coordination mechanisms. For example, coordinating availability and access to medical countermeasures, medical personnel, and laboratory specimens for national health security purposes should be balanced with the international assistance US [sic] may need to provide both to contain an outbreak before it reaches our borders or for humanitarian purposes.

Trump's administration, of course, famously purchased months' worth of the global stock of Remdesivir, cutting off other countries and continents, as well as attempting to buy exclusive rights to a German vaccine project. In terms of domestic coordination, Trump has allowed an inter-state bidding war to occur over coronavirus equipment like ventilators, driving up the price and resulting in unequal or wealth-based distribution rather than coordination.

In an international incident, US departments and agencies will need to work with the host government and its Ministry of Health, WHO, and implementation partners on the consistent application of standardized clinical care guidance/protocol [...][/url]

Trump, of course, terminated the US' membership of the World Health Organisation mid-pandemic.