Election thread

[ObsidianJones]

Gethsemani has posted how the Nazis came to power upthread and how they never really had an actual majority.

Ask yourself, did people blame the Germans for WWII and all the other Nazi atrocities or only those figures who helped installing Hitlers dictatorship ?

It will be the fault of "the Americans", as it always is.

---------------

But it was "Americans are stupid" last election. Because if someone oversees with limited exposure could have predicted how Trump would be as president, Americans should habe been able to to even better.

This time around it won't be interpreted as a mistake or as something stupid. This time the whole world will think that the Americans like what Trump did the last 4 years if they relect them. That the US is overall a shitty country dominated by really nasty people, not just ignorant people.

I think Satinavian is pretty on point here. Voter suppression has been an ongoing discussion in the US since at least the turn of the century. To anyone with half an interest it is a known issue. So why, in 2 decades time, has no one tried to stop it? Why is it only a problem for the people of the US now that some of them want Trump gone and suppression is going on as it has for the last 5 election cycles?

Not all Americans, obviously, but it is hard to escape the conclusion that a majority of people in the US are actually kind of nasty and vindictive. That they'd rather disassemble their vaunted democracy instead of risking a President they don't agree with. That they'd rather mess with their fellow Americans, lie to them, hurt them and deceive them rather then risk losing political power. This is such a well known deeply rooted systemic issue that it is hard to imagine that it could have been on going if Americans didn't implicitly agree with it.

I am hoping that what we will see is the US people rising up to vote Trump out of office, that we'll see a massive voter turnout from groups that are usually overlooked and that they'll show another face of America. But it is also entirely possible that this election will cement the idea that the USA is a country built by straight, christian white people for straight, christian white people and that everyone who isn't that is a second class citizen who might get a chance to vote if their pasty overlords are feeling benevolent.

So this is my question, why not be specific instead of making everyone on these shores think negatively towards everyone else? It has been going on for two decades. And for all that time, I know at least members of the black community have been mobilized and did everything they could to bring awareness and change.

It feels like bias when we know the actual group causing these issues, but to add insult to injury, just because my ancestors were dragged here against their will, forced to even now to get the worst treatment the majority could muster, robbed of voices and chances... just because of that we need to be called stupid because we few can not change the minds of the majority who care nothing but for themselves. Lil Devils X can run a clinic (puns, I got them) on how the Native Americans were treated here. Any Latino, Asian, and "other" Americans that aren't the majority are similarly voiceless.

Last election, hundreds of thousands of votes were purged. Districts remapped without informing the voters until it was too late, making less democratic districts and thereby giving electoral votes to Trump. And even with that Fuckery, Hillary STILL got the popular vote. In fact, Except for Reagon and George W.'s SECOND term... Democrats have been winning the Popular vote since I've been alive.

List of United States presidential elections by popular vote margin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From 1980 until now, you might notice a trend. The Democrat margins just keeps going up higher and higher. Republicans know this, and they will do every underhanded trick available to take that power from us.

Yes, they are Americans. But they aren't American like me.

Here's the sad truth.

U.S. Census Bureau QuickFacts: United States

Frequently requested statistics for: United States

www.census.gov

Race and Hispanic Origin
White alone, percent	 76.3%
Black or African American alone, percent(a)	 13.4%
American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent(a)	 1.3%
Asian alone, percent(a)	 5.9%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent(a)	 0.2%
Two or More Races, percent	 2.8%
Hispanic or Latino, percent(b)	 18.5%
White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent	 60.1%

If every minority got together, every minority pushed for a new direction... that means nothing if the Majority doesn't care about it.

And for people outside of that to shrug and say "Well, you should have made it better" is like holding the mailroom clerk accountable for the CEO's embezzlement. Either that, or "Sorry, I have to consider you stupid because of association. It's just easier to shorthand for me. You understand" is unacceptable.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[EvilRoy]

I would think internationally, most nations would rather have Biden than Trump, unless of course you are Russia or Saudi Arabia. Biden was planning on cutting the Saudi's off.

Rather have him, sure. He's more logically predictable so its more likely that his policies can be expected and prepared for. But that doesn't mean hes "good" for the rest of us, it just means he's easier to handle. A lot of the trade related policies he's talked about aren't really going to be amazing for most other countries in N/S America, and any time someone gets into it with Saudi Arabia everyone around them hurts as well. That pissing match between Russia and Saudi Arabia tanked my local economy by accident. Not that we were hurt and they both felt super bad about it, but as in they didn't notice or care that they were killing us. The US cutting off Saudi Arabia is not going to be fun and companies in my country are already desperately trying to recover from COVID and start banking money to weather it, because it means a huge fight and that means all of us are going to suffer.

 

[CastletonSnob]

Listen to how defeated Trump sounds.

 

[Dalisclock]

Listen to how defeated Trump sounds.

Either that or the Covid Steroids are wearing off.

 

[ObsidianJones]

I'll never hold an individual accountable for the actions of a group, at least not until the individual openly agrees with the group's actions. But at some point, with 300 million people involved, you need to pass judgement on the actions of the group even if that means that individuals get unfairly blamed just for belonging to the group. It is no different from how "Germans" are responsible for WW2, how the "US Army" was responsible for Abu Ghraib or "Afghanis" were responsible for the Taliban. We are talking a scale were you can't apply much granularity but need to make some really broad strokes. That doesn't mean I'll blame you, Lil devils x, Seanchaidh or any other American who voices dissent against Trump, because I engage with you on a far smaller scale.




The mailroom clerk doesn't have a voice in the choice of CEO or company board. I get that it sucks and probably feels like a punch in the face to be blamed for Trump, but the average Swede, German or Dane will not have daily interactions with Americans of any kind. They'll just see that Trump won and that will come down on US citizens as a group. Most of the people I talk to daily already think Americans are stupid, illiterate morons for voting in Trump the first time and that judgement will only become more negative if he manages to secure a second term. I realize that it is no consolation at all, but most people in Europe actually have quite a lot of sympathy with the troubles of US minorities, especially in regards to racism and voter suppression.

For what little it is worth, most people will probably understand that minorities didn't vote for Trump so you're pretty much exempt of criticism levied against "Americans".

I hear what you're saying on the Broad strokes idea. And I can get how it makes sense. But it's the same logic that some of our fellow forum members want to dwell in their bias of Disproportionate Amount Of Blacks.

We won't even get into the misreporting and the overreporting due to what benefits the Police Force at that time. I'll never say blacks don't commit crimes. They do. They are human. Every race of human has criminals. And the numbers go up when they experience Poverty. But these forum members and people like them want to take self reported numbers as the Gospel and use it to excuse and/or celebrate the tyrannical tactics that are implemented against this group.

"If it wasn't such a tough job, they wouldn't have to protect themselves in such a manner" A fact that becomes less and less true with every study about what are actually the dangerous jobs in America. But any injury an officer suffers magnifies that perception a hundred fold.

"If Blacks don't commit crime, they won't meet the officers" Another fact that goes out the window when we realize that Police Officers have quotas to make arrest.

I can spend all day disproving these things, but I'm doing that with someone who already knows all this stuff. The point is, these forum members and people like them that want to excuse and/or celebrate police interactions with Blacks do it with the faintest idea of what's actually happening in the world. They just need a tidy little bow to justify their condemnation.

Now, I know you don't think this way, that all Americans are complicit with Trump. But it's so, so vexing to play the game by the rules and have the other side constantly move the board around in their favor, and then having the audience blame us both for the outcome not being favorable. What else can we do? Should we cheat back and be as abhorrent as they are? Should we stick to our morals and lose with dignity? It seems like no matter the answer, everyone else just wants to hate on America for even being in the game at all.

A very small part of this country has usurped a large amount of the voice due to duplicitous acts. This is Neck and Neck with How Minorities/Women are treated in this country for what Disgusts me the Most about America. And if you have any idea how much I revile the treatment of Women and Minorities here, you would get how monumental that is within me.

 

[lil devils x]

I hear what you're saying on the Broad strokes idea. And I can get how it makes sense. But it's the same logic that some of our fellow forum members want to dwell in their bias of Disproportionate Amount Of Blacks.

We won't even get into the misreporting and the overreporting due to what benefits the Police Force at that time. I'll never say blacks don't commit crimes. They do. They are human. Every race of human has criminals. And the numbers go up when they experience Poverty. But these forum members and people like them want to take self reported numbers as the Gospel and use it to excuse and/or celebrate the tyrannical tactics that are implemented against this group.

"If it wasn't such a tough job, they wouldn't have to protect themselves in such a manner" A fact that becomes less and less true with every study about what are actually the dangerous jobs in America. But any injury an officer suffers magnifies that perception a hundred fold.

"If Blacks don't commit crime, they won't meet the officers" Another fact that goes out the window when we realize that Police Officers have quotas to make arrest.

I can spend all day disproving these things, but I'm doing that with someone who already knows all this stuff. The point is, these forum members and people like them that want to excuse and/or celebrate police interactions with Blacks do it with the faintest idea of what's actually happening in the world. They just need a tidy little bow to justify their condemnation.

Now, I know you don't think this way, that all Americans are complicit with Trump. But it's so, so vexing to play the game by the rules and have the other side constantly move the board around in their favor, and then having the audience blame us both for the outcome not being favorable. What else can we do? Should we cheat back and be as abhorrent as they are? Should we stick to our morals and lose with dignity? It seems like no matter the answer, everyone else just wants to hate on America for even being in the game at all.

A very small part of this country has usurped a large amount of the voice due to duplicitous acts. This is Neck and Neck with How Minorities/Women are treated in this country for what Disgusts me the Most about America. And if you have any idea how much I revile the treatment of Women and Minorities here, you would get how monumental that is within me.

Yea, it is seriously disproportionate the amount of people in white affluent communities who get a free pass for things that no way in hell would a black person get away with. It was like when that white guy on PCP took the cash register, damaged a ton of people's property and repeatedly assaulted police and he just got a free pass and his Mom agreeing to put him in rehab with no record from it. This was the norm for the wealthy white people in my community. At the same time, these same cops would have no problem grinding a black guys face into rocks while arresting them and giving them a maximum sentence. When you have cops, the DA, and judges all thinking white people get a pass due to affluenza while blacks should be " punished" and " made an example of" we have serious problems with our current system.

 

[Shadyside]

 

[lil devils x]

Now, I know you don't think this way, that all Americans are complicit with Trump. But it's so, so vexing to play the game by the rules and have the other side constantly move the board around in their favor, and then having the audience blame us both for the outcome not being favorable. What else can we do? Should we cheat back and be as abhorrent as they are? Should we stick to our morals and lose with dignity? It seems like no matter the answer, everyone else just wants to hate on America for even being in the game at all.

A very small part of this country has usurped a large amount of the voice due to duplicitous acts. This is Neck and Neck with How Minorities/Women are treated in this country for what Disgusts me the Most about America. And if you have any idea how much I revile the treatment of Women and Minorities here, you would get how monumental that is within me.

I also think it is important to point out that I think much of this happened because of the whole " it is impolite to talk about religion or politics". I see that thinking as what allowed the smokescreen to allow people to not pay attention to what was going on. Even here on the Escapist, we constantly have people who complain about people talking about this at all, like it is something we should avoid, but in reality that is the very reason things are like this now. They were able to conceal their actions and people stopped caring or noticing. Whether they are too busy watching the Kardashians or absorbing themselves in comics and video games, they just stopped bothering to pay attention and it became the norm to be annoyed when people actually TRY to talk about it.

Then fast forward to where we are now, people stopped talking about who was running for mayor, state legislature, congress.. somewhat talked about president but ignored everything else entirely. THEN they complain and say blanket things like " they are all corrupt", "both sides are the same" and " it is never going to change" when they didn't even actually try to make these things change. Who is elected to mayor matters. Who is elected to state legislature matters. Who is elected to congress matters. They all determine who is elected to president and you can't change who is elected to president if you ignore everything else. We have to talk about all these things and people can't just ignore it or it will only get worse, not better and we are helping them win. They win by silencing us, and we are enabling them to silence us.

 

[SilentPony]

SNIP

SNIP

You're not getting what I'm saying. Lets say Biden wins and the Democrats take the Senate. The day before Inauguration Day, Trump still as the President says he's seen evidence of of voter fraud and is suspending the inauguration and will retain power. Congress, the old one, agrees. The supreme court rules, and yup, suspend the inauguration.
Who stops him then? The secret service won't step in because Trump is still the president. DC police won't escort him out under any circumstances, they LOVE him. He let them beat liberals in the streets not 2 months ago. And he has the support of tens of thousands of armed supporters who have already proven they're willing and capable of killing liberal protestors.

And the Joint Chiefs won't step in to stop Trump. That if the President, Congress, Supreme Court, DC Police, Secret Service and terrorist militias overthrow the government, the armed forces would let them, or worse.

I'm talking about Chancellor Palpatine has too much power and may suspend the democracy, and everyone else is saying don't worry, Senator JarJar Binks and the Clone Army will stop him.

 

[ObsidianJones]

I'm sorry about the self promotion, but this needs to be spoken over

MAGA Calvary rams Biden's campaign Bus.

Am I worried about if Biden wins? Yes, because I believe it won't be a civil war, but small parties like this will try to enact revenge.

Am I worried about if Trump wins? Yes. Because these people will feel more empowered to do whatever they want. Not only is this a Presidential Candidate, but this is an Ex-Vice President. The frenzy Trump and his cult are whipped into makes them the single most dangerous threat to America in my eyes. We can not give in, but that means pain along the way.

 

[CastletonSnob]

 

[lil devils x]

You're not getting what I'm saying. Lets say Biden wins and the Democrats take the Senate. The day before Inauguration Day, Trump still as the President says he's seen evidence of of voter fraud and is suspending the inauguration and will retain power. Congress, the old one, agrees. The supreme court rules, and yup, suspend the inauguration.
Who stops him then? The secret service won't step in because Trump is still the president. DC police won't escort him out under any circumstances, they LOVE him. He let them beat liberals in the streets not 2 months ago. And he has the support of tens of thousands of armed supporters who have already proven they're willing and capable of killing liberal protestors.

And the Joint Chiefs won't step in to stop Trump. That if the President, Congress, Supreme Court, DC Police, Secret Service and terrorist militias overthrow the government, the armed forces would let them, or worse.

I'm talking about Chancellor Palpatine has too much power and may suspend the democracy, and everyone else is saying don't worry, Senator JarJar Binks and the Clone Army will stop him.

while I don;t think that will happen either way the timing of what you state can't happen though because they happen at different times. Congress officially changes hands on January 3, President is inaugurated on January 20 or 21st, accounting for Sunday. Special election seats, like McSally's are supposed to take office immediately after the election unless changed by the court, it is being argues in court as we speak.

He could attempt something before congress changes hands, however, at this point we have no idea if there will be a change in the number of state delegations in the house or not yet, nor if the GOP will hold the Senate either way.

I honestly don't think trump will do all that. He could, but I think with the number of former and US security and military officials who have openly opposed him, it is highly unlikely.

 

[fOx]

I fear that in the general abstract sense, I have at this point very little empathy for your average American. As someone that has been watching your politics for the past 18 years, the Trump presidency is merely all the worst traits of the previous presidencies combined. I've seen remarks that you have to beat Trump and "return to sanity". If sanity is to be judged by previous presidencies, then I'd still lock the door and throw away the key.

So I reject your rather obviously loaded question. America's disenfranchised have never had much of a voice to begin with, it's just now things have reached the boiling point where throwing cops at what you can and ignoring the rest of the problem no longer works. It is also much more convenient to point out the problem now, from a narrative standpoint, than point it out when you have a president that continues the status quo those not disenfranchised benefit from.

I have to agree with this. If obama, bush, and clinton are what people mean by "sanity" or "normalcy," then they can shove it. They're part of the problem.

 

[lil devils x]

I'm sorry about the self promotion, but this needs to be spoken over

MAGA Calvary rams Biden's campaign Bus.

Am I worried about if Biden wins? Yes, because I believe it won't be a civil war, but small parties like this will try to enact revenge.

Am I worried about if Trump wins? Yes. Because these people will feel more empowered to do whatever they want. Not only is this a Presidential Candidate, but this is an Ex-Vice President. The frenzy Trump and his cult are whipped into makes them the single most dangerous threat to America in my eyes. We can not give in, but that means pain along the way.

I agree. The reckoning will have to come one way or another. There is no way around it not hurting, but I would rather it hurt for months rather than years. Months by kicking Trump to the curb, years if we fail to do so.

 

[SilentPony]

while I don;t think that will happen either way the timing of what you state can't happen though because they happen at different times. Congress officially changes hands on January 3, President is inaugurated on January 20 or 21st, accounting for Sunday. Special election seats, like McSally's are supposed to take office immediately after the election unless changed by the court, it is being argues in court as we speak.

He could attempt something before congress changes hands, however, at this point we have no idea if there will be a change in the number of state delegations in the house or not yet, nor if the GOP will hold the Senate either way.

I honestly don't think trump will do all that. He could, but I think with the number of former and US security and military officials who have openly opposed him, it is highly unlikely.

Okay so the exact dates need to change, but its still entirely possible. And the hope, the prayer, the belief is that after 4 years the GOP will grow a heart and not overthrow the government to stay in power?
I'm not dismissive, I'm legit worried the argument against Trump preventing Democrats from taking office and the GOP letting him is "Well lets hope he doesn't do that."

 

[lil devils x]

Okay so the exact dates need to change, but its still entirely possible. And the hope, the prayer, the belief is that after 4 years the GOP will grow a heart and not overthrow the government to stay in power?
I'm not dismissive, I'm legit worried the argument against Trump preventing Democrats from taking office and the GOP letting him is "Well lets hope he doesn't do that."

I have no hope that the GOP will have a change of heart, Most of those willing to speak up have been run out of office by trump and his goons. I understand your concerns, I honestly think trump is a coward though, and even if he talks a lot of crap, he likely will just have his plane fueled up ready for him to flee to another country like he had originally planned the first time. Trump is a blabbering fool, he is no Putin. If it were Putin instead of Trump, that would be a different situation entirely.

 

[CastletonSnob]

CNN polls:


And here's a poll showing the national average lead 3 days to Election Day:

 

[Dalisclock]

Okay so the exact dates need to change, but its still entirely possible. And the hope, the prayer, the belief is that after 4 years the GOP will grow a heart and not overthrow the government to stay in power?
I'm not dismissive, I'm legit worried the argument against Trump preventing Democrats from taking office and the GOP letting him is "Well lets hope he doesn't do that."

I would argue if he was gonna do something like that, he would have done it in 2018 after the dems flipped the house but before they took office.

Trump is awful, I agree, but he has a LONG history of talking big and then doing very little. He threatens to sue people constantly for their libel and almost never follows up because he's bluffing. He's bungled his own legal cases to the supreme court for stupid reasons. As much as I'm sure he'd love to try to pull a coup, it requires planning and ability far in excess of what we've seen.

I read this a couple weeks back and I feel there's some merit here. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/10/opinion/sunday/trump-election-authoritarianism.html

Stupid Mussolini is an apt comparison. And remember, Mussolini ended up handing upside down from a lamppost in the end.

 

[SilentPony]

I would argue if he was gonna do something like that, he would have done it in 2018 after the dems flipped the house but before they took office.

Trump is awful, I agree, but he has a LONG history of talking big and then doing very little. He threatens to sue people constantly for their libel and almost never follows up because he's bluffing. He's bungled his own legal cases to the supreme court for stupid reasons. As much as I'm sure he'd love to try to pull a coup, it requires planning and ability far in excess of what we've seen.

I read this a couple weeks back and I feel there's some merit here. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/10/opinion/sunday/trump-election-authoritarianism.html

Stupid Mussolini is an apt comparison. And remember, Mussolini ended up handing upside down from a lamppost in the end.

Well I think the situation is radically changed. Trump, the civilian/CEO threatens shit all the time. Trump the President, with the backing of the Congress, and the Supreme Court?! And 40% of voters who are convinced that anything less than 47 states for Trump means civil war, on top of 96% support among registered Republicans?

Trump didn't do it in 2018 because he was still favored to win, and Covid wasn't a thing. Trump 2020 with everything to lose and anothing to gain for letting Democrats take office, and with legalish means of stopping them? You're a braver person than I to think Trump and the GOP won't do something. Not try, do.